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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I suggest that we do some windherding while Eike watches. She has the potential to learn it herself, and while our time is very spoken for, hers stands to be wide open and could tremendously benefit from leveraging the skill with Mathilde's rolodex.

Some will say "oh, that's spoonfeeding her, you're spoiling eike" to which I could only reply "Being a master is not about being fair, it is about producing competent and useful new wizards." And a wizard who can break telcian theory over her knee and still has the time to explore the benefits of that is a competent and useful wizard indeed.

Sad that having the gold college let Eike learn all potioneering and enchantment and other magical crafting skills with one pip isn't in the running, but we're not out of ways to lay the groundwork for Mathilde's apprentice to become a legend in her own right yet.
 
Sinsystems said:
If we take a research sabbatical then I'd suggest we initially focus on codifying our various spells and the like before we do the Windherding focus.
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We can do both at the same time - honestly, Knightbringer's the only one that needs to be prioritized, because the rest would be our masteries, which by their very nature are based more on our personal understanding of Ulgu than anything else. Boney's explicitly said that while Masteries are sometimes capable of being codified, it's unreliable and difficult, and you won't know whether it's impossible or not until you try it.

And on the note of Windherding, I definitely think we should try to aim our enchantments or spells to being based on the smaller spells first. Boney's right - Battle Magic may be sexy but it's the smaller spells that let the Colleges keep running.

Relatively Simple:
-Shadowcloak + Shimmering Cloak = Two-Sided Cloak. As the name would indicate, this is an easily-reversible cloak with one side being dark grey and the other a stark white. It enhances the user depending on which side is worn - the dark grey side enhances stealth, while the white side reduces damage from nonmagical missiles (but makes hiding impossible). It would be of great use to any infiltrator, and further still if said infiltrator is found out and more urgently needs defense from arrows or crossbow bolts than they need stealth.
(Alternately, Shadowcloak could be replaced with Take No Heed.)

-Eye of the Beholder + Radiant Weapon = Totally Normal Blade. This is a magical sword which is very effective against Daemons, but made to appear to observers as though it is completely ordinary. It would serve well for anyone who is in the business of hunting down Chaos cults while wishing to not draw attention to themselves, and ideally make daemonic foes underestimate the wielder. Not all weapons require fame.

-Bewilder + Dazzling Brightness = Glove of Incapacitation. A single leather glove with a white rhombus-shaped crystal embedded in the palm. Activated when presenting the palm to a foe and uttering a key word, it both blinds and confuses them. This should be effective against singular opponents.

Moderately Complicated:
-Burning Shadows + Radiant Sentinel = Rod of the Burning Sentinel. A rod of silver, one end of which is covered in soft silks which hide a symbol of Ulgu, and the other end openly showing a symbol of Hysh. Upon usage, it summons a Radiant Sentinel from the Hysh end - and shortly after, due to the creation of that bright light and therefore shadow coming from the user, allows the usage of Burning Shadows. Thus the user can defend themselves from one side while simultaneously attacking the other. Ideally would be best used when surrounded.

-Shadow of Death + The Power of Truth = Circlet of Threats. A simple circlet of copper. Upon touching one of its sides, makes the wearer incredibly persuasive and also frightening when telling the truth. It would ideal be for leaders and rulers who would rather be feared than loved, or seen as just-yet-firm.

Fiendishly Complicated:
-Universal Confusion + Blinding Light = Mirror-Trap of Incapacitation. A small cube box containing several mirrors within. Carried on a leather string, to be worn around the neck. When one of its sides is unlocked and opened, it lets out a light that both blinds and confuses a large group of enemies. Straightforwardly designed as an incapacitating weapon against large groups of foes. May be seen as a large-scale version of the Glove of Incapacitation.

-Dread Aspect + Eyes of Truth = The White Face. A featureless white mask which covers all of the wearer's features, with only holes for the eyes. Upon speaking a key-word, the eye-holes emit a terrible light, turning the wearer into a figure of righteous persecution, who sees through all manner of deceptions and frightens all who gaze upon its shining eyes. Would be useful for any inquisitor-like figures, who need to wield fear as a weapon and face lies as enemies.
 
Nimbus said:
After a quick check, for the 'swift stealth in forests' robe proposal I mentioned earlier, The Wilds Undisturbed + Shroud of Invisibility might work. Alternatively, if we wanted to stick with Mathilde's Aethyric Armour Mastery as the base spell, The Cloak of Dain may be a useful option as an emergency button for extra resilience. (Each of these would depend on Panoramia knowing the spell in question, of course - I'm sure that someone's recorded her known spells somewhere but I'm not sure where!)
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The issue is that Panoramia isn't an enchanter, and all members of a Windherded Enchanting project need to be enchanters for it to work. So we can Windherd Jade spells into our robes, but there's no particular reason for doing so above and beyond the value of the spell itself -- we can't meaningfully include Panoramia, just like we can't meaningfully include the Golden Boys.
Prime 2.0 said:
I suggest that we do some windherding while Eike watches. She has the potential to learn it herself, and while our time is very spoken for, hers stands to be wide open and could tremendously benefit from leveraging the skill with Mathilde's rolodex.

Some will say "oh, that's spoonfeeding her, you're spoiling eike" to which I could only reply "Being a master is not about being fair, it is about producing competent and useful new wizards." And a wizard who can break telcian theory over her knee and still has the time to explore the benefits of that is a competent and useful wizard indeed.

Sad that having the gold college let Eike learn all potioneering and enchantment and other magical crafting skills with one pip isn't in the running, but we're not out of ways to lay the groundwork for Mathilde's apprentice to become a legend in her own right yet.
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Given that she's already 1/4 Windherding, yeah, obviously we should include her on whatever Windherding we do. Get that skill up there. I don't think that's spoonfeeding her at all, that's just passing on our special skills to her, which is the job of an Apprenticeship.
Parabola said:
Relatively Simple:
-Shadowcloak + Shimmering Cloak = Two-Sided Cloak. As the name would indicate, this is an easily-reversible cloak with one side being dark grey and the other a stark white. It enhances the user depending on which side is worn - the dark grey side enhances stealth, while the white side reduces damage from nonmagical missiles (but makes hiding impossible). It would be of great use to any infiltrator, and further still if said infiltrator is found out and more urgently needs defense from arrows or crossbow bolts than they need stealth.
(Alternately, Shadowcloak could be replaced with Take No Heed.)

-Eye of the Beholder + Radiant Weapon = Totally Normal Blade. This is a magical sword which is very effective against Daemons, but made to appear to observers as though it is completely ordinary. It would serve well for anyone who is in the business of hunting down Chaos cults while wishing to not draw attention to themselves, and ideally make daemonic foes underestimate the wielder. Not all weapons require fame.

-Bewilder + Dazzling Brightness = Glove of Incapacitation. A single leather glove with a white rhombus-shaped crystal embedded in the palm. Activated when presenting the palm to a foe and uttering a key word, it both blinds and confuses them. This should be effective against singular opponents.

Moderately Complicated:
-Burning Shadows + Radiant Sentinel = Rod of the Burning Sentinel. A rod of silver, one end of which is covered in soft silks which hide a symbol of Ulgu, and the other end openly showing a symbol of Hysh. Upon usage, it summons a Radiant Sentinel from the Hysh end - and shortly after, due to the creation of that bright light and therefore shadow coming from the user, allows the usage of Burning Shadows. Thus the user can defend themselves from one side while simultaneously attacking the other. Ideally would be best used when surrounded.

-Shadow of Death + The Power of Truth = Circlet of Threats. A simple circlet of copper. Upon touching one of its sides, makes the wearer incredibly persuasive and also frightening when telling the truth. It would ideal be for leaders and rulers who would rather be feared than loved, or seen as just-yet-firm.

Fiendishly Complicated:
-Universal Confusion + Blinding Light = Mirror-Trap of Incapacitation. A small cube box containing several mirrors within. Carried on a leather string, to be worn around the neck. When one of its sides is unlocked and opened, it lets out a light that both blinds and confuses a large group of enemies. Straightforwardly designed as an incapacitating weapon against large groups of foes. May be seen as a large-scale version of the Glove of Incapacitation.

-Dread Aspect + Eyes of Truth = The White Face. A featureless white mask which covers all of the wearer's features, with only holes for the eyes. Upon speaking a key-word, the eye-holes emit a terrible light, turning the wearer into a figure of righteous persecution, who sees through all manner of deceptions and frightens all who gaze upon its shining eyes. Would be useful for any inquisitor-like figures, who need to wield fear as a weapon and face lies as enemies.
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These ideas are cool but I think it's going to be hard to get the thread to go for Windherding-for-the-sake-of-Windherding -- you may recall a few turns ago when the Windherding proposal got shot down in favor of a Seviroscope alternative because people just didn't want to do it (even the really cool idea involving making Egrimm's mirror). So I'm focusing on Aethyric Armour + something at the moment, because I think that with We-silk now available, "new robes" is the only Windherding likely to get off the ground in the near future (since there's no way we get the ship next turn).

Maybe later tonight if I have time I can draw up a comprehensive list of potential Aethyric Armour combinations and then we can ask Boney about whether promising borderline ones are viable.
 
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Nurgle said:
If we are going to go all out I say we go all out and get a enchantment from all 8 colleges, really use that trait. It would be great practice for the ship.
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If we believe we're likely to get at least a moderate boon from either Laurelorn or Ulthuan in the near future, we could potentially cash it in for an attempt at Windherding an Ulgu–Qhaysh enchantment on our We-silk robes with Sarvoi or the equivalent (borrowing a High Mage's time for a personal project without a boon seems unlikely).

Shield of Saphery is pretty nice protection.
 
Parabola said:
We can do both at the same time - honestly, Knightbringer's the only one that needs to be prioritized, because the rest would be our masteries, which by their very nature are based more on our personal understanding of Ulgu than anything else. Boney's explicitly said that while Masteries are sometimes capable of being codified, it's unreliable and difficult, and you won't know whether it's impossible or not until you try it.

And on the note of Windherding, I definitely think we should try to aim our enchantments or spells to being based on the smaller spells first. Boney's right - Battle Magic may be sexy but it's the smaller spells that let the Colleges keep running.

Relatively Simple:
-Shadowcloak + Shimmering Cloak = Two-Sided Cloak. As the name would indicate, this is an easily-reversible cloak with one side being dark grey and the other a stark white. It enhances the user depending on which side is worn - the dark grey side enhances stealth, while the white side reduces damage from nonmagical missiles (but makes hiding impossible). It would be of great use to any infiltrator, and further still if said infiltrator is found out and more urgently needs defense from arrows or crossbow bolts than they need stealth.
(Alternately, Shadowcloak could be replaced with Take No Heed.)

-Eye of the Beholder + Radiant Weapon = Totally Normal Blade. This is a magical sword which is very effective against Daemons, but made to appear to observers as though it is completely ordinary. It would serve well for anyone who is in the business of hunting down Chaos cults while wishing to not draw attention to themselves, and ideally make daemonic foes underestimate the wielder. Not all weapons require fame.

-Bewilder + Dazzling Brightness = Glove of Incapacitation. A single leather glove with a white rhombus-shaped crystal embedded in the palm. Activated when presenting the palm to a foe and uttering a key word, it both blinds and confuses them. This should be effective against singular opponents.

Moderately Complicated:
-Burning Shadows + Radiant Sentinel = Rod of the Burning Sentinel. A rod of silver, one end of which is covered in soft silks which hide a symbol of Ulgu, and the other end openly showing a symbol of Hysh. Upon usage, it summons a Radiant Sentinel from the Hysh end - and shortly after, due to the creation of that bright light and therefore shadow coming from the user, allows the usage of Burning Shadows. Thus the user can defend themselves from one side while simultaneously attacking the other. Ideally would be best used when surrounded.

-Shadow of Death + The Power of Truth = Circlet of Threats. A simple circlet of copper. Upon touching one of its sides, makes the wearer incredibly persuasive and also frightening when telling the truth. It would ideal be for leaders and rulers who would rather be feared than loved, or seen as just-yet-firm.

Fiendishly Complicated:
-Universal Confusion + Blinding Light = Mirror-Trap of Incapacitation. A small cube box containing several mirrors within. Carried on a leather string, to be worn around the neck. When one of its sides is unlocked and opened, it lets out a light that both blinds and confuses a large group of enemies. Straightforwardly designed as an incapacitating weapon against large groups of foes. May be seen as a large-scale version of the Glove of Incapacitation.

-Dread Aspect + Eyes of Truth = The White Face. A featureless white mask which covers all of the wearer's features, with only holes for the eyes. Upon speaking a key-word, the eye-holes emit a terrible light, turning the wearer into a figure of righteous persecution, who sees through all manner of deceptions and frightens all who gaze upon its shining eyes. Would be useful for any inquisitor-like figures, who need to wield fear as a weapon and face lies as enemies.
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While true, I want to try the Shadow Dagger codification and then use that as a base to create a Shadow Sword spell that would work for our sword style.
 
Zaratustra said:
Is there a specific reason we can't include Max that I missed ? I know that Johann has his inflexible magic limiting his spell list and we can't just tell Pan to go learn enchating, but we are Max boss so why not do it ?
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We are max's boss, but if we tell max to learn an entire skill that we're going to have him use like once or twice, he will in fact just quit instead, 'cause that's bullshit.
 
I kind of want to read Vlad's notes before we enchant anything as well. He was trying to reverse engineer an enchantment created by Nagash. Whilst I highly doubt we would be able to reverse engineer that same enchantment, there's surely a useful insight that we could derive from it.

Also maybe the Kurgan weapons as well, but I'm not a fan of stacking a ton of prerequisite actions before we're allowed to do the cool action, and I'd rather we study the weapons for their own sake, so I'm cool if we do that later.
 
Zaratustra said:
Is there a specific reason we can't include Max that I missed ? I know that Johann has his inflexible magic limiting his spell list and we can't just tell Pan to go learn enchating, but we are Max boss so why not do it ?
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Either Johann or Max would be well-suited to learning Enchanting, but neither of them are Enchanters, so it would cost us a bunch of WEB-MAT actions over multiple turns to get their Enchanting skills high enough to meaningfully collaborate with them, as opposed to just hiring a Gold College enchanter with a small amount of CF and one personal action.
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I kind of want to read Vlad's notes before we enchant anything as well. He was trying to reverse engineer an enchantment created by Nagash. Whilst I highly doubt we would be able to reverse engineer that same enchantment, there's surely a useful insight that we could derive from it.
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I am sympathetic to the appeal of this but you're talking about at least two personal AP (to learn written High Nehekharan and to read the notes) as prerequisites for something that we've been able to do for in-and-out-of-quest years. If we want to do it while the thread is interested in exploring Windherding, we should just do it.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I kind of want to read Vlad's notes before we enchant anything as well. He was trying to reverse engineer an enchantment created by Nagash. Whilst I highly doubt we would be able to reverse engineer that same enchantment, there's surely a useful insight that we could derive from it.

Also maybe the Kurgan weapons as well, but I'm not a fan of stacking a ton of prerequisite actions before we're allowed to do the cool action, and I'd rather we study the weapons for their own sake, so I'm cool if we do that later.
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That would take 2AP at a minimum:
  1. First to learn the language
  2. Then to read the notes
Given that a lot of people want to go to elf land on the next turn I don't think that is going to fly sadly.
 
picklepikkl said:
Either Johann or Max would be well-suited to learning Enchanting, but neither of them are Enchanters, so it would cost us a bunch of WEB-MAT actions over multiple turns to get their Enchanting skills high enough to meaningfully collaborate with them, as opposed to just hiring a Gold College enchanter with a small amount of CF and one personal action.
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Are we sure it would take multiple turns ? I know it should take at least four actions to get to fiedish complex enchanting. but those would be Max actions not Mathilde actions. Why couldn't we pay for him to take a crash course ? Good chance to get it done in a turn and wouldn't even be that much above what is generaly expected.
 
Zaratustra said:
Are we sure it would take multiple turns ? I know it should take at least four actions to get to fiedish complex enchanting. but those would be Max actions not Mathilde actions. Why couldn't we pay for him to take a crash course ? Good chance to get it done in a turn and wouldn't even be that much above what is generaly expected.
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Because Max and Johann aren't videogame NPC's. If you drag them out to do something and then barely utilize it, they are going to get mad.
 
Interrogation Collar could be fun, The Power of Truth + either Take No Heed or Bewilder. Something something gently befuddle the wearer into speaking honestly. Biiit of a stretch from both sides given that neither of them involve any sort of compulsion, Bewilder has other undesirable side effects, and Take No Heed doesn't customarily apply to your own actions... But it vaguely feels like the right vibe for Hysh+Ulgu.
 
pucflek said:
Because Max and Johann aren't videogame NPC's. If you drag them out to do something and then barely utilize it, they are going to get mad.
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In priciple yes, but consider this :
We have been working with Max for more than a decade, went to the gates of hell and back togeter, and he already doesn't care much about the work so long as he gets to folow his passion, so I fell we are long past the point where one thing would be much problem.
Golds have enchant item, the spell to make stuff just better. I fell like that single spell makes the gold wind the most suited for trying stuff to build skill, so we could totaly find more than a couple good uses.
 
Zaratustra said:
In priciple yes, but consider this :
We have been working with Max for more than a decade, went to the gates of hell and back togeter, and he already doesn't care much about the work so long as he gets to folow his passion, so I fell we are long past the point where one thing would be much problem.
Golds have enchant item, the spell to make stuff just better. I fell like that single spell makes the gold wind the most suited for trying stuff to build skill, so we could totaly find more than a couple good uses.
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Or you could just not annoy them uselessly and book an enchanter from gold college.
 
I'm personally inclined to think studying Vlad's notes will specifically help learn how the Carstein Ring worked. That's still really worthwhile, don't get me wrong, but it's definitely an enchantment based on either pure Dhar or Necromancy and thus probably inapplicable to Windherding things.

It's known that the Ring that Nagash gave to Vashanesh was supposed to be a way for him to control all the vampires, and it granted the wearer the capacity to return the wearer to unlife. If you assume it doesn't work on regular living humans, the notes probably give insight into what makes Vampires tick, into how exactly it is that the Ring can enable that in the first place. Probably something to do with the stuff in the Liber Necris about the nature of vampires being detached from the Aethyr and the whole 'must replenish your soul with some of the life force of others (via blood or magical energies)' thing.

I think Vlad made a second ring, one that didn't allow people to control vampires through it, but kept the whole 'regenerates vampires' thing. There's even some canonical material that points in that direction!

Vampire Counts 7e page 60 said:
The Carstein Ring

On his hand Vlad wore the infamous Carsteain Ring, a magical artefact that gave Vlad the ability to cheat death time and again. The origins of the ring are as mysterious as Vlad's own. One Imperial scholar claims that the ring dates back thousands of years, and was created by Nagash for the vampire Vashanesh. A few self-styled 'experts' on the Undead even claim that this means Vlad was actually Vashanesh. However, there is only one obscure reference to this meeting, thought unreliable by many.

Also, the appearance of the Carstein Ring, as described by those who fought Vlad, was more contemporary in design. If indeed Nagash ever made such a ring, it is more likely that the Carstein Ring is a less powerful copy. Vlad demonstrated no particular skills of artisanship so it is certain that the Carstein Ring was not made by him. It is more likely that Vlad forced a thrall Necromancer to create it or took it from its owner.

Some believe that Mannfred spent much of his time away from Sylvania seeking Felix Mann to recover the ring. If he was successful, he never revealed this to anyone else.
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It's that middle paragraph specifically. Just as the whole Vlad-Vashanesh ambiguity thing is canon, it is also canon that there might be two Carstein rings - and the one Vlad was known to wear was contemporary of the times, so he probably made it while he lived in Sylvania.

"But Parabola, that same paragraph says that Vlad didn't have great skills of artisanship!" Well, I think that part is wrong. Vlad is the dude that made the big-ass ritual that raised every dead being in Sylvania. He absolutely had the magical skills, so why couldn't have some degree of actual craftsmanship too? Just because he wasn't known to have said skills according to Imperial scholars doesn't mean he couldn't have been capable of it after thousands of years of life experiences.
 
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Zaratustra said:
In priciple yes, but consider this :
We have been working with Max for more than a decade, went to the gates of hell and back togeter, and he already doesn't care much about the work so long as he gets to folow his passion, so I fell we are long past the point where one thing would be much problem.
Golds have enchant item, the spell to make stuff just better. I fell like that single spell makes the gold wind the most suited for trying stuff to build skill, so we could totaly find more than a couple good uses.
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Here's a Boneypost on Max learning to enchant:
Boney said:
BeepSmile said:
I get the impression that he tried a long time ago and found himself unsuited; since enchanting is notably difficult and he quickly respected Mathilde when he learned she could do it at a basic level.

But... he is more now. More skilled, more knowledgeable, with a broader perspective and more experienced with Chamon that he was when he joined the expedition.

@Boney, my broader intentions are "WEB-MAT Max; eleven enchanting techniques and Windherding "

Would sending him to (try to) learn enchanting be a viable option, or is he just unsuited in general to enchanting/would need years of experience at enchanting to be able to contribute to/attmept those two actions?
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If he hasn't picked it up by now, then he either can't or won't, and Mathilde won't be able to change that. If Mathilde was forced to guess in the privacy of her own head, then she'd guess it would be something of an emotional issue - Max has it more under control now than when he was younger, but he feels his feels very strongly, and magic knows what you're feeling. Metal doesn't.
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Windherder is hard for me,because i am not sure which spells are there in other lores? I know the big ones, but we should start small.I have some ideas for enchants, but dont know if they are actually spells that exist.
-like azyr prediction + dispell/shield/invisibility
-or chamon control an enemies weapon +
Illusion/doppelganger
-or ashqy light up all gunpowder in this general area after 3 seconds+
Shadowstep/intangibity
-or hysh blind everyone in the area +
Darkness to protect my designated allies




CAn i just write concepts,or do we have to combine actual spells? And if we need actual spells,where do i find lists?
 
Narasan said:
Windherder is hard for me,because i am not sure which spells are there in other lores? I know the big ones, but we should start small.I have some ideas for enchants, but dont know if they are actually spells that exist.
-like azyr prediction + dispell/shield/invisibility
-or chamon control an enemies weapon +
Illusion/doppelganger
-or ashqy light up all gunpowder in this general area after 3 seconds+
Shadowstep/intangibity
-or hysh blind everyone in the area +
Darkness to protect my designated allies




CAn i just write concepts,or do we have to combine actual spells? And if we need actual spells,where do i find lists?
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It's in spell book, as it has ever been.
 
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