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Marienburg's actions should be looked at with the understanding that the Empire has invaded them within living memory, stopping only once circumstances forced them to. So when Marienburg looks across the bog and sees the Empire industrially working away at creating more favorable circumstances they're naturally going to see it as likely a prelude to another invasion and respond accordingly (They'd probably be correct in that guess as well, even the Chamberlain, who seemed to be representing the dove faction comments on the issue were about the timing being bad, not about the goal itself not being worth thinking about.).

Honestly conflict seems almost inevitable no matter what over a long enough timespan, canal or no. They're a very small polity that by the nature of its existence is constantly causing varying levels of irritation to a much larger polity that is within striking range. It's not a stable equilibrium.
 
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Someday, when the Chamberlain lays all this out for Mathilde, she is going to stare into the middle distance and say:

"They shouldn't have taken the library."
idgi

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ohhhhh. Right, igi.

Yeah. This. This speaks to me.

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And people keep saying in thread "we make repository, let's contact the Verenans". And I read that and think to myself "lol no"


I oppose entering any sort of fair relationship with them. I advocate gouging them for every scrap of knowledge we can get.

They want to store anything? They store everything.

I dunno, maybe the Marienburg Ranaldites might put pressure on some local powerful person who can put pressure on the Verenans, for the cost[1] of the Empire recognising Ranald as "an ok dude"

[1] Truly, a massive burden. How will Mathilde and Hilde cope?
 
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This talk of Marienburg Dwarfs has me wondering how Surface Dwarfs treat the Karak Kings. Do they show them any sort of consideration akin to Karak dwarfs might to visiting Karak kings, or is it more like "we're basically our own Karak, bug off."

It varies based on the individual. The possible reasons for not living in the Karaz Ankor vary quite a bit.

Tactical aggression is a fair response to a strategic attack. You put someone in a hole where it's obvious that they'll die if they don't escape it, you can't blame them for trying to climb out of it.

Putting nuclear missiles on Cuba was aggressive. The blockade in response was not unprovoked.

I'm failing to make the mental leap to nuclear missiles, and it makes me think you're bringing RL politics into this to be provocative, rather than because it's a good comparison. It's very hard to see this as anything but a deliberate and two-pronged escalation of rhetoric to disrupt the discussion. This is the second time in as many days that I've woken up to you being at the centre of unpleasantness, consider yourself warned that there'll be an enforced vacation from the thread if there's a third.
 
On a hopefully less… fraught topic: Possible use of Windherder.
If we cover a unit in fog and have Hubert hit it with a lightning bolt, does the unit take more damage?
 
In regards to Marienburg, I want to point out that arguably the canal project should make them a less attractive target for conquest not more. It makes Marienburg less wealthy, and stops it being the sole point of egress from the river system to the sea, both of which make it less valuable, not more. And it's not like Marienburg blockading the river was the principal reason the Empire never invaded. I'm pretty sure that was because the last time they tried, they lost, and Ulthuan provided at least enough support to make the Empire wary of messing around too much.


Why Marienburg became independent is hard to judge. It's almost certainly not as simple as "the Directorate wanted more power" because by the time they got independence they were 99% of the way there. There's probably some element of not wanting to be in the Empire (Marienburg has always had a very distinct culture IIRC), some element of desire for freedom in general, rather than opposition to the Empire specifically.
Control of the Empire's riverine-to-international trade is pretty big leverage actually.
-By being a naval power and having their naval specialist wizards, they cannot be defeated at sea or river by the Empire.
-By being surrounded by marsh, they cannot be invaded overland without horrendous attrition on larger groups.
-By being rich and packed with mercenaries, they cannot be matched on a qualitative or quantitative basis by the Empire short of an existential threat, any small elite force that can traverse the marsh is not elite enough to take all their mercenaries
-By controlling trade, they are in a position to block slower efforts to brute force invade by paving over the marsh, which is possible if you could commit to a multi-year invasion to just destroy the natural barrier, but not if your economy would collapse due to Marienburg stranglehold.
That's not a point without merit, but the Empire already ships it's stuff across the Empire. Raw materials and food flow between the provinces of the Empire anyway. Marienburg is almost certainly primarily exports to foreign powers, likely mostly the Southern Realms and Barak Varr, with a sideline in Ulthuan.

Cutting that off won't be good for trade, but it does mean that the Empire could survive without it, even if it costs. Likely that's part of what the Empire is doing now, shipping stuff overland to Nordland or Ostland and shipping out from there. The Empire could survive if the Reik suddenly had a magical portal at the end that teleported everything that entered it into a volcano. The problem isn't actually that the Empire can't do these things, it's that it's difficult to adjust, which results in extra cost, and time, until this becomes a norm or things get reset to the old standard.

Portsmouth has been a major port since about the third century. Venicewas at the height of its power well before the invention of the railway. Etc etc. Position is far more important than river access.

That's an interesting assertion. Do you have any proof? Because sure, it makes things more expensive and difficult, but I highly doubt it makes it so impractical as to be useless. It's not like those trade routes don't already exist, even if they're going be under greater amounts of strain now. But that's a consequence of the sudden change, not of their existence.

Except, as far as I can tell, the only Imperial taxes mentioned are excise taxes. Elector counts tax their own provinces and raise their own armies based on that, and Imperial institutions are supported by their own efforts, not state funding. See the Colleges selling their services and tithing members. And the argument that Marienburg is defended by armies it doesn't contribute to applies to most polities in the Old World. The Empire doesn't pay for Kislev's defense. Nor do, as far as I can tell, the various Electors pay each other anything for their defense.

Its a gross understatement. The Empire could not, the river-to-ocean trade carries easily hundreds of times the volume of overland trade routes. This isn't just money, the money is already committed into projects both military and civil.

The Empire would probably survive, but there's going to be a great deal of losses in life involved here. Theres no specific piece of catastrophic damage, but having a 1 cm cut applied to three hundred different spots on your body would be a very bad day.
It's not an Empire project.
It's a Barak Varr project, where they are employing Empire labour. Sure, the president of the independent EIC put the idea in their heads and are positioning themselves to take advantage.
Marienburgh tried to pressure the Empire to stop the Barak Varr project. It is possible they can't imagine it's not also a joint project with the Empire, but it isn't.
More likely they don't have any leverage which could make Barak Varr stop, but the Empire does if it called upon the ages old alliance.
 
Marienburg's actions should be looked at with the understanding that the Empire has invaded them within living memory, stopping only once circumstances forced them to. So when Marienburg looks across the bog and sees the Empire industrially working away at creating more favorable circumstances they're naturally going to see it as likely a prelude to another invasion and respond accordingly (They'd probably be correct in that guess as well, even the Chamberlain, who seemed to be representing the dove faction comments on the issue were about the timing being bad, not about the goal itself not being worth thinking about.).

Honestly conflict seems almost inevitable no matter what over a long enough timespan, canal or no. They're a very small polity that by the nature of its existence is constantly causing varying levels of irritation to a much larger polity that is within striking range. It's not a stable equilibrium.

and the empire's actions should be looked at with the understanding that the empire is not acting, in fact Stirland isn't acting, all of the motions were made through a small handful of private individuals looking to become competition to Marienburg's merchant Dynasty's. Marienburg might see that as a threat from the empire but the main conflict from our perspective is the EIC verses Marienburg's paid bandits which means the sudden escalation took us by surprise.

Roswetta might get involved because of her greater understanding of trade and their use of bandits but it's far more likely that this is a battle that we wage with the EIC and our understanding of trade rather then cannons because we don't want to start a war and they can't win the war if they start it.

The goal isn't to conquor Marienburg but to knock out the family trying to destroy Stirlands trade and that means it's smaller and more personal. If they do piss us off enough that we want to do something about it the answer is more likely going to be go to Marienburg as a faithful of Ranald and prove that the rare books in a library to Verona or maybe their entire wizard college is just as lootable as the tax records in the beginning of the quest were.
 
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Control of the Empire's riverine-to-international trade is pretty big leverage actually.
-By being a naval power and having their naval specialist wizards, they cannot be defeated at sea or river by the Empire.
-By being surrounded by marsh, they cannot be invaded overland without horrendous attrition on larger groups.
-By being rich and packed with mercenaries, they cannot be matched on a qualitative or quantitative basis by the Empire short of an existential threat, any small elite force that can traverse the marsh is not elite enough to take all their mercenaries
-By controlling trade, they are in a position to block slower efforts to brute force invade by paving over the marsh, which is possible if you could commit to a multi-year invasion to just destroy the natural barrier, but not if your economy would collapse due to Marienburg stranglehold.
That hasn't changed. The Empire doesn't magically get better than its third rate navy because they built a new canal.
Ignoring the possible applications of RoW, this also hasn't changed.
This largely doesn't change. I suppose the Empire could try shipping troops in by using the canal and coming out at Varr, but it still wouldn't solve the "your navy sucks" problem.
I mean, that's a fair point. On the other hand, the Empire is incredibly unlikely to ever muster the political will or resources to pave over hundreds of miles of marsh.

Its a gross understatement. The Empire could not, the river-to-ocean trade carries easily hundreds of times the volume of overland trade routes. This isn't just money, the money is already committed into projects both military and civil.

The Empire would probably survive, but there's going to be a great deal of losses in life involved here. Theres no specific piece of catastrophic damage, but having a 1 cm cut applied to three hundred different spots on your body would be a very bad day.
I mean, I get the point you're making, I just disagree that it would be that bad. Almost certainly the vast majority of the items they're shipping through Marienburg are luxury goods. There's probably some trade with Ostland and Nordland that'd be affected, but the vast majority of trade through the port is going to be international.

Like, the primary thing I see costing people their lives would be job loss, and then them not having the savings to survive. Which the canal project isn't going to change exactly. Every ton of goods moving through the canal from Stirland is one Altdorf dock workers aren't needed for. It'd be less drastic, but it'll still be there.
 
and the empire's actions should be looked at with the understanding that the empire is not acting, in fact Stirland isn't acting, all of the motions were made through a small handful of private individuals looking to become competition to Marienburg's merchant Dynasty's. Marienburg might see that as a threat from the empire but the main conflict from our perspective is the EIC verses Marienburg's paid bandits which means the sudden escalation took us by surprise.

The empire is acting, through the medium of power players pursuing their agenda. Which is how a huge amount of policy ends up happening throughout the ages. It doesn't matter to Marienburg who started it (beyond that it changes what levers they can pull), the end result is it incentivizes another invasion due to lowering the cost it would incur.

Roswetta might get involved because of her greater understanding of trade and their use of bandits but it's far more likely that this is a battle that we wage with the EIC and our understanding of trade rather then cannons because we don't want to start a war and they can't win the war if they start it.

The goal isn't to conquor Marienburg but to knock out the family trying to destroy Stirlands trade and that means it's smaller and more personal. If they do piss us off enough that we want to do something about it the answer is more likely going to be go to Marienburg as a faithful of Ranald and prove that the rare books in a library to Verona or maybe their entire wizard college is just as lootable as the tax records in the beginning of the quest were.

'We' as in Mathilde isn't particularly interested in invading Marienburg. Neither is Roswita. That doesn't matter, there are many other power players in the Empire that are and this makes it easier for them to do so. That's what (In part, I'm sure greed is also playing a role) is informing their response, not whether any specific person is pursuing invasion goals.
 
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'We' as in Mathilde isn't particularly interested in invading Marienburg. Neither is Roswita. That doesn't matter, there are many other power players in the Empire that are and this makes it easier for them to do so. That's what (In part, I'm sure greed is also playing a role) is informing their response, not whether any specific person is pursuing invasion goals.
Well probably. But its worth bearing in mind that the response in question has been nothing special so far, it has mostly amounted to watching and waiting for the canal to finish or the Marienburgers to get themselves Grudged trying to stop it. Which is a perfectly acceptable response even if you don't want to invade Marienburg.

So while there is no doubt some people are biased, their bias hasn't translated to anything in particular so far.
 
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Fog is water suspended in air. Water conducts electricity. Thus an electric current will have an easier time jumping from one individual to the next if they are surrounded by fog.

Natural lightning takes the path of least resistance, usually towards the ground. Azyr forces lightning to ignore that, or otherwise changes the path of least resistance. Since the path of least resistance is already forcing itself through the air, making the air less resistant might make the spell use less Azyr to redirect the path. On the other hand, you've now put a bunch of Ulgu into the mix, and the Winds repulse each other.
 
Generally we've not been in close enough proximity with enough other wizards when heavy casting is going on to really get a sense of how easily Dhar is created from it. The closest I can remember is when we took the ducklings in to hit the orcs, but they mostly cast single target spells or self buffs. If we get a lot of AoE casters on the upcoming expedition that will be probably be more relevant to look out for.

Well possibly. But its worth bearing in mind that the response in question is really nothing special, it mostly amounts to watching and waiting for the canal to finish or the Marienburgers to get themselves Grudged trying to stop it. Which is a perfectly acceptable response even if you don't want to invade Marienburg.

By 'Their response' I was meaning Marienburg, basically it's not just the profit margins driving them here.
 
On a hopefully less… fraught topic: Possible use of Windherder.
If we cover a unit in fog and have Hubert hit it with a lightning bolt, does the unit take more damage?
We maybe should have worked with another wizard when making RoW. Having two winds in the spell would likely get rid of many difficulties.
 
Oh, thought on wind herder:

I was thinking that it's probably going to be best at stacking buff/debuff spells of different winds in the same area in principal, so trying to figure out how to make that work with what is coming with us on the expedition.

And it occurred to me, could it be utilized to take advantage of the natural repulsion of different winds, and steer the effect of mystifying miasma away from people wrapped in, say, chamon?

I guess I'm not sure if the miasma creates a zone of warped time, or if it uses the mist to apply a persistent effect to all individuals within it's area at cast and then others can enter without I'll effect.

If the first, we could let Johann just rampage through entire units, but if the second, then no need for wind herder...
 
Fog is water suspended in air. Water conducts electricity. Thus an electric current will have an easier time jumping from one individual to the next if they are surrounded by fog.
Freshwater is actually a pretty bad conductor of electricity. As it turns out, salt water conducts electricity pretty well due to dissolved ions, which is probably where the confusion comes from. But pure water has almost nothing in the way of "free" charged particles, so it doesn't conduct an electrical charge very well. Since a magically conjured mist is probably almost pure or completely pure water (assuming it's water at all), I don't think the physics works out that way.
 
By 'Their response' I was meaning Marienburg, basically it's not just the profit margins driving them here.
Marienburg's security is guaranteed by Ulthuan so long as they don't do something so utterly stupid the Asur stop caring about their existing agreement. Therefore they basically have nothing to be concerned about unless they successfully get themselves Grudged by playing this foolish game.

In conclusion, this is in fact all about their profits.
 
We maybe should have worked with another wizard when making RoW. Having two winds in the spell would likely get rid of many difficulties.
It would also probably make it harder to make, and harder to cast.

Freshwater is actually a pretty bad conductor of electricity. As it turns out, salt water conducts electricity pretty well due to dissolved ions, which is probably where the confusion comes from. But pure water has almost nothing in the way of "free" charged particles, so it doesn't conduct an electrical charge very well. Since a magically conjured mist is probably almost pure or completely pure water (assuming it's water at all), I don't think the physics works out that way.
While this is true, magic also makes reality go twang. The fact that water is known to be a conductor of electricity probably means more than the physics when dealing with spellcraft.

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Marienburg's security is guaranteed by Ulthuan so long as they don't do something so utterly stupid the Asur stop caring about their existing agreement. Therefore they basically have nothing to be concerned about unless they successfully get themselves Grudged by playing this foolish game.

In conclusion, this is in fact all about their profits.
Not quite true. In typical Asur style, their treaty is worded vaguely enough that Ulthuan can choose to step in or not as it pleases. Whether they will or not is something they've been playing coy about. If the Empire were to march on Marienburg tomorrow, there's no guarantee Ulthuan would do anything, even if they might. That uncertainty tends to keep the Empire from acting because it doesn't want a war with Ulthuan, but there's no guarantee.
 
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Marienburg's security is guaranteed by Ulthuan so long as they don't do something so utterly stupid the Asur stop caring about their existing agreement. Therefore they basically have nothing to be concerned about unless they successfully get themselves Grudged by playing this foolish game.

I think there's no way Ulthuan goes to the bitter end for Marienburg, a credible army makes it to the walls and they quit the contest and retreat to their embassy (Honestly a credible army making it to the walls is probably when a negotiated settlement is struck, none of the parties involved particularly want fighting inside the city). Marienburg is a useful enough patsy to support when it's cheap enough to do so, but they'll get most of the benefits regardless of who's in charge.

The agreement is very ambiguous so they're able to do this without much prestige cost. So this is not something the Marienburger leadership would want to rest their entire strategy around. Or generally have to put to the test.
 
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That hasn't changed. The Empire doesn't magically get better than its third rate navy because they built a new canal.
Ignoring the possible applications of RoW, this also hasn't changed.
This largely doesn't change. I suppose the Empire could try shipping troops in by using the canal and coming out at Varr, but it still wouldn't solve the "your navy sucks" problem.
I mean, that's a fair point. On the other hand, the Empire is incredibly unlikely to ever muster the political will or resources to pave over hundreds of miles of marsh.
Thats the point. Its the fifth and arguably least critical element of their defense, because where the other elements will allow an invasion if they are gone, the trade dominance only makes existing difficulties worse - if the Empire has the political will to pave over the marsh then they've already fucked up far, far worse, and it cannot carry out an embargo without naval dominance.

Its strategic defense role is overstated, its mainly a massive moneymaker, because having a monopoly on Imperial riverine trade lets them take whatever price they want.
I mean, I get the point you're making, I just disagree that it would be that bad. Almost certainly the vast majority of the items they're shipping through Marienburg are luxury goods. There's probably some trade with Ostland and Nordland that'd be affected, but the vast majority of trade through the port is going to be international.

Like, the primary thing I see costing people their lives would be job loss, and then them not having the savings to survive. Which the canal project isn't going to change exactly. Every ton of goods moving through the canal from Stirland is one Altdorf dock workers aren't needed for. It'd be less drastic, but it'll still be there.
Can't actually address this point without going deeper into economics than I have the time for, but that is only true on a very superficial reading of things. High value goods, which can be luxury items, high quality equipment, books or reagents are valuable for moving productivity around, beyond the very real importance of things like saltpeter or high grade steel being moved on the same channels
 
Portsmouth has been a major port since about the third century. Venice was at the height of its power well before the invention of the railway. Etc etc. Position is far more important than river access.
OK, you know, that's totally fair. A port that is well sited relative to other people's sealanes can have a vital strategic location, with or without railroads. That's Portsmouth's solution; it's a sheltered harbor on the English Channel, so many ships pass by and many ships have an incentive to stop there, even if there's not much reason for them to pick up or drop off cargo there.

So can a port that sits on the overland trade routes for luxury goods, even when trade in bulk goods cannot go through it because of a lack of overland bulk transportation. That's Venice's solution to a large extent.

The question you invite, then, is "do the Imperial ports on the north coast, the ones not connected to the Reik river network, HAVE those advantages?"

The other question is "is it feasible for the bulk of the Imperial economy to plug itself into the maritime trade of these ports in any meaningful way, or does the tyranny of overland distance, complicated by the need to get past terrain obstacles like beastman-haunted forests and mountains, prevent this?"

That's an interesting assertion. Do you have any proof? Because sure, it makes things more expensive and difficult, but I highly doubt it makes it so impractical as to be useless. It's not like those trade routes don't already exist, even if they're going be under greater amounts of strain now. But that's a consequence of the sudden change, not of their existence.
They'll be workable for some goods, but not others. This is as historical. Amber was moving in trade routes overland through prehistoric Europe back when I doubt there was anything recognizable as a road from Macedonia to the Baltic... but amber is precious and you can carry a fortune of it in a knapsack. If you're trading in timber or grain or even wool, you need a lot more shipping capacity, and in the pre-industrial world that meant moving overland as little as possible.

So you get a situation where luxury goods can flow to and from the sea in the Empire, but essentials cannot, at least not without paying Marienburger taxes.

Except, as far as I can tell, the only Imperial taxes mentioned are excise taxes. Elector counts tax their own provinces and raise their own armies based on that, and Imperial institutions are supported by their own efforts, not state funding. See the Colleges selling their services and tithing members. And the argument that Marienburg is defended by armies it doesn't contribute to applies to most polities in the Old World. The Empire doesn't pay for Kislev's defense. Nor do, as far as I can tell, the various Electors pay each other anything for their defense.
Yes, but Elector Counts are expected to march to each other's defense in the face of a pre-eminent threat, and the Empire has historically shown up when Kislev was existentially threatened by Chaos (the only thing that usually hits the Empire through Kislev).

Marienburg getting to sit such wars out entirely and not pay any taxes to Imperial coffers to finance the Emperor's own forces is a much more extreme form of free-riding than the Elector Counts engage in.

That hasn't changed. The Empire doesn't magically get better than its third rate navy because they built a new canal.
Earlier you observe that the Empire totally has sea access. I point out that their sea access is marginal and not connected with their main industrial centers by water.

Now you note that they have a third-rate Navy.

Do you think that's a coincidence?

I don't. I think the Empire struggles far more to maintain a fleet capable of defending its coastline because it doesn't have the option of setting up a fleet base and major military shipyard in a port city that is connected via easy, secure transportation to its industrial heartland.

For example, warships require cannons. The Empire's cannon are mostly manufactured in Nuln and Altdorf and points adjacent. Do you think having to haul the things- and much of the powder, probably- through the Middle Mountains or the Forest of Shadows makes it any easier to build and maintain a powerful armed fleet in Ostland or Nordland?

It's like, there's a reason that over in Dynastic Alcoholism, the Count of Ostland has been able to build up a powerful fleet and project at least some measure of naval power onto the Sea of Claws. Do you know why?

Because he's the goddamn Graf of Guns, that's why; he managed to establish his own capital as a local center of artillery manufacture and engineering knowledge. Something that in canon, Nordland and Ostland have not succeeded in doing... and consequently, they do not have the means to sustain a first or second-rate fleet properly out of their own resources. Nor- see previous comments about Middle Mountains and Forest of Shadows- do they have the means to easily transfer those resources to their own ports for the construction of ships.

So yes, the independence of Marienberg, along with its active taxation of river-to-sea Imperial trade for the Reik river basin (most of the Empire) is significantly impairing the Empire's defensive capabilities.

It's good for Marienburg, sure! But it's not good for the Old World as a whole, given the sometimes tenuous state of their defenses against the Destruction factions.
 
I mean, I get the point you're making, I just disagree that it would be that bad. Almost certainly the vast majority of the items they're shipping through Marienburg are luxury goods. There's probably some trade with Ostland and Nordland that'd be affected, but the vast majority of trade through the port is going to be international.
Beyond the fact that the Chamberlain considered it a pretty serious matter, these are some quotes from Boney at the time the vote was about responses to the embargo.

The Empire is riddled with rivers, almost all of which reach the sea through Marienburg. This means the majority of the Empire's international trade goes through there. Trying to pivot to overland would be hugely difficult and in some cases impossible.
On sorts of goods traded-
Metals, fabrics, specific kinds of timber, spices, alcohol, weapons. And luxuries aren't vital, but the tax money from them can be.
How important are said weapons? That... may be really crucial.
Depends how peaceful the coming years are.
Where do such weapons usually originate from? The Empire's military didn't seem like one that imports weapons en masse from abroad.
Bretonnia and Estalia. It's a rare time when the Empire couldn't use more weapons.
On what would be needed to compensate for the loss in trade-
The main road is the same road the Expedition took when it first set off from the Empire. There can be trouble from the Forest Goblins, but it's usually fine, and Barak Varr is able to project power along the route with their monitors. The problem is a matter of logistics: what it takes one ship to deliver would take a lot of wagons and a lot of wagoneers and a lot of draught animals and a lot of time, and that's not something that can be scaled up easily. The other major route is the River of Echoes that goes under the Vaults between Estalia and Wissenland, but that's got a hard size limit and requires rowing.

So while there will inevitably be casualties because there's very few entirely safe roads in the setting, the main factor isn't deaths, it's the expenditure of money and resources and influence it will take to replace the near-frictionless wind-powered free energy machines that we call 'ships' with muscle power.
 
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