Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[BurnNote]

If he really thinks like that, I'll think him daft. Plans with so many moving parts and unknowns do not work, period. Not even Tzeeench could pull that one off.

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It's got a lot of bits involved, but not that many are reliant on others. They're mostly synergistic. The whole thing could still work if any given part didn't work out, just not as well. And there might be any number of aspects that didn't pan out, but also don't show up for that reason. The fact that so many do is impressive enough.

It's also a lot easier to have a ton of moving parts if you have a College full of people to poke those parts so they move in the right direction.

 

[Alratan]

They are still committing hostile operations on Imperial territory, that makes them the aggressors no matter what they assume or predict about what the Empire will do.

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Tactical aggression is a fair response to a strategic attack. You put someone in a hole where it's obvious that they'll die if they don't escape it, you can't blame them for trying to climb out of it.

Putting nuclear missiles on Cuba was aggressive. The blockade in response was not unprovoked.

 

[LightLan]

Putting nuclear missiles on Cuba was aggressive. The blockade in response was not unprovoked.

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This is not the politics section. Please refrain from bringing rl politics into the quest.

 

[banelord]

Tactical aggression is a fair response to a strategic attack. You put someone in a hole where it's obvious that they'll die if they don't escape it, you can't blame them for trying to climb out of it.

Putting nuclear missiles on Cuba was aggressive. The blockade in response was not unprovoked.

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Can I ask what the hell is your point? What do you want us to do, suddenly halt the canal project and tank literally every form of reputation we have all at once? If not, shut up.

 

[BurnNote]

Tactical aggression is a fair response to a strategic attack. You put someone in a hole where it's obvious that they'll die if they don't escape it, you can't blame them for trying to climb out of it.

Putting nuclear missiles on Cuba was aggressive. The blockade in response was not unprovoked.

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That's not quite an accurate metaphor. The current situation is more like a small nation with nukes on missiles as deterent getting pissed its bigger neighbor's ally is building a missile defense shield. And missile defense isn't actually the primary goal (though it is a very welcome second effect).

 

[DragonParadox]

Tactical aggression is a fair response to a strategic attack. You put someone in a hole where it's obvious that they'll die if they don't escape it, you can't blame them for trying to climb out of it.

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Those are some nice buzz words, but this is the renaissance at best and more like the middle ages in most places. If you asked the leadership of any Order Nation who is the aggressor here the answer would be Marienburg. Territorial sovereignty is fundamental to all the staes of the Old World and beyond. Just about the only ones who might have some sympathy are the high elves.

Within the moral and legal framework they function in (such as both are) Marianburg is the aggressor and thus in the wrong. Everyone from Ariel to Setra understands what trespass onto another's borders with ill intent means.

 

[BelligerentGnu]

Tactical aggression is a fair response to a strategic attack. You put someone in a hole where it's obvious that they'll die if they don't escape it, you can't blame them for trying to climb out of it.

Putting nuclear missiles on Cuba was aggressive. The blockade in response was not unprovoked.

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Are you.....the canal will make them somewhat less wealthy. It's competitive business. "A hole they'll die in"? "Nuclear missiles"?

I'm half-convinced you're just trolling the thread at this point.

 

[notanautomaton]

Are you.....the canal will make them somewhat less wealthy. It's competitive business. "A hole they'll die in"? "Nuclear missiles"?

I'm half-convinced you're just trolling the thread at this point.

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Really, the canal makes Marienburg more secure, not less. They'll still have their Asur-given monopoly earing them dosh (which is somehow canon), but they will no longer be sitting on the only Imperial access point to the sea. This means that there is far less impetus for the Empire to reconquer them in order to ensure sea access.

 

[Travler66]

Guys, don't try and argue with Alratan, he's not worth the effort.

 

[Vebyast]

Do not feed the troll. He does this all the time.

 

[Exmorri]

But positioning your own armies is just one part, though superior positioning can is devastating in the hands of a skilled general. I think the bigger impact is what it means for your enemy. Because now there's all this terrain that suddenly stops being defensible, and so they have to spread out way more, or just give up on holding large stretches. For example, normally you only have to hold a ford in a river to lock down a whole stretch of land. Now, you have to hold the whole river, because they can just cross at any point. Worse, if you do try to hold it, there's a real danger of getting hit without any chance of hitting back, because the river is still an obstacle to your forces.

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I don't think this is as big a problem for Marienburg as it is for some others, though. Dispel. Marienburg has its own little college of magic, it's much easier to muster mages for the defense of the city than for an offensive campaign, and Rite of Way is very much an all-or-nothing spell where a moment's flickering drops your army in the drink.

 

[deathofrats0808]

That supports my point though. They had everything, but they still had to pay taxes to the central government. Then they declared independence, and nothing changed except for less taxes and the ability to impose more tariffs on the Imperials.

And as for "Marienburg's culture"... My (admittedly spotty) knowledge of the sourcebooks basically has it boil down to the entire city fitting the "generic Imperial merchant" archetype, with the rulers being that with more money and the pride to match. They were an Imperial city for ages, lots of people moved there, and the writers weren't exactly concerned with making it different from the usual formula (except when they were the bad guys - then they got portrayed as the usual formula, but more greedy and evil).

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If they'd really just wanted to pay less taxes though, they could have arranged that. It's not like they just declared independence, they legally bought their freedom off Dieter IV. So if they'd wanted to change how their taxes work while remaining part of the Empire, they could have done so. Likely without kicking off a war. A war they had no guarantee they could win.

They're very heavily influenced by the Dutch, while the Empire tends to draw more from HRE/German sources. There's elements of "everything is mercentalised" but that doesn't prevent the differences being greater than that.

Sure, they were an Imperial city for a good long time, but that doesn't mean they don't have a distinct culture. Look at how different Middenland is compared to Reikland, or Stirland to the Moot. And most of those have been part of the Empire since well before Sigismund conquered the Jutones.

EDIT:

Really, the canal makes Marienburg more secure, not less. They'll still have their Asur-given monopoly earing them dosh (which is somehow canon), but they will no longer be sitting on the only Imperial access point to the sea. This means that there is far less impetus for the Empire to reconquer them in order to ensure sea access.

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They've never actually been on the Empire's only sea access. The Empire has more sea access up through Nordland and Ostland. They're just the exit point for the river system. Still valuable either way, but the Empire doesn't actually need to obtain sea access.

 

[BurnNote]

I don't think this is as big a problem for Marienburg as it is for some others, though. Dispel. Marienburg has its own little college of magic, it's much easier to muster mages for the defense of the city than for an offensive campaign, and Rite of Way is very much an all-or-nothing spell where a moment's flickering drops your army in the drink.

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That's not specific to Marienburg. It's not a spell you'd use to assault a position if you can at all avoid it. Even if the enemy has no magic at all. Some arrow could do it, since all it takes is disrupting the concentration of the caster. You use it during manouver, to get into position, but at that point the enemy is still out of contact.

And it is an issue for Marienburg, because now the Empire can bring it's armies to Marienburg much easier, since the marsh is less of a problem. That's especially important for unwieldy things like siege weapons.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Guys, don't try and argue with Alratan, he's not worth the effort.

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Do not feed the troll. He does this all the time.

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I think this is not very fair.

ask, maybe a bit hyperbole. but not any more than some of the replies. (looking at the 'um, actually, it will be good for them' arguments...)

the basic point, that looking at it from the other side the empire and dwarfs are doing something that will be bad for them and sticking their thumbs to their noses and going 'neee, nerr' is a fair one.

 

[notanautomaton]

They've never actually been on the Empire's only sea access. The Empire has more sea access up through Nordland and Ostland. They're just the exit point for the river system. Still valuable either way, but the Empire doesn't actually need to obtain sea access.

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You drastically underestimate the value of rivers. Without access to both the river network and the sea, all the other port towns are barely worth the name.

 

[065tdsa]

If they'd really just wanted to pay less taxes though, they could have arranged that. It's not like they just declared independence, they legally bought their freedom off Dieter IV. So if they'd wanted to change how their taxes work while remaining part of the Empire, they could have done so. Likely without kicking off a war. A war they had no guarantee they could win.

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What they wanted is to never have to pay any taxes again and make it so no new emperor could reverse the change. Hence independence.

Never having to contribute anything to the Empire's various wars, never mind that due to geography the Empire remains Marienburg's meat shield against any land invasion by Destruction powers, was probably a good bonus too.

 

[Ithuriel]

They've never actually been on the Empire's only sea access. The Empire has more sea access up through Nordland and Ostland. They're just the exit point for the river system. Still valuable either way, but the Empire doesn't actually need to obtain sea access.

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The majority of the Empire's population and economy lies in the Reik river basin which flows out to the sea through Marienburg. It doesn't matter that Nordland has sea access when Marienburg can blockade the lower Reik and cripple the Empire.

Edit: Apparently the upper Reik is in Wissenland/ Averland. The lower Reik flows to the sea.

 

[DragonParadox]

I think this is not very fair.

ask, maybe a bit hyperbole. but not any more than some of the replies. (looking at the 'um, actually, it will be good for them' arguments...)

the basic point, that looking at it from the other side the empire and dwarfs are doing something that will be bad for them and sticking their thumbs to their noses and going 'neee, nerr' is a fair one.

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While I agree that no one is trolling, I would say poisoning people is much more morally reprehensible than building infrastructure in your own territory.

 

[deathofrats0808]

You drastically underestimate the value of rivers. Without access to both the river network and the sea, all the other port towns are barely worth the name.

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Not really. Like, sure, having river access makes ports better but they're hardly necessary for major ports. And specifically, having access to the sea as a whole is a very different prospect from having a better port.

What they wanted is to never have to pay any taxes again and make it so no new emperor could reverse the change. Hence independence.

Never having to contribute anything to the Empire's various wars, never mind that due to geography the Empire remains Marienburg's meat shield against any land invasion by Destruction powers, was probably a good bonus too.

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They already weren't contributing anything to the Empire's land wars. They managed to get out of that one by the dastardly scheme of being a port city half way across the Empire from any serious threats.

Meanwhile they stopped contributing to the Empire's sea power because one of the Emperors scrapped the Second Fleet.

I don't doubt that "pay less tax" had an influence on the desire for independence, but I find it very unlikely it was the only reason, and think it plausible that t might not have even been the primary reason. Quite apart from anything else, they appear to have had at least some popular support, seeing as how there's no evidence of riots or protests, or basically anything saying Marienburgers gave a damn they'd left. And the common folks taxes wouldn't have changed at all.

The majority of the Empire's population and economy lies in the Reik river basin which flows out to the sea through Marienburg. It doesn't matter that Nordland has sea access when Marienburg can blockade the lower Reik and cripple the Empire.

Edit: Apparently the upper Reik is in Wissenland/ Averland. The lower Reik flows to the sea.

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I mean, sort of? Like, the Empire possesses the ability to ship stuff in and out of other ports, it's just more expensive. And yeah, Marienburg is important, but here's a world of difference between "able to access the sea" and "not having the best port we can". The latter is desirable, the former is practically necessary for any nation which claims to be a power of any reckoning.

 

[Historyman14]

In summary: The whole Marienburg and the canal deal is very complicated no matter how you look at.

Marienburg's whole reaction to the canal project could be labeled as a overreaction, but with reason. Anything that can and will weaken it monopoly of trade and river travel they will react poorly too.

Now the canal isn't just going to ruined Marienburg, or allow the Empire to conquer it. But something that can threaten both profit and the security of it Independence even in a small way, again they will react poorly and with cause.

The question is 'how far will Marienburg push' and 'how responsible are they for poison ' given others been listened that could have done it.

 

[Gap]

While I agree that no one is trolling, I would say poisoning people is much more morally reprehensible than building infrastructure in your own territory.

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We dont know if they did it though. We must be very careful with the poison accusations exactly because its a Casus Beli one, and for all we talk about rivalry and justifications, war between nations of order is bad.
To clarify I agree that poisoning is a no go but we shouldn't insert that justification without being sure.

 

[Ithuriel]

I mean, sort of? Like, the Empire possesses the ability to ship stuff in and out of other ports, it's just more expensive. And yeah, Marienburg is important, but here's a world of difference between "able to access the sea" and "not having the best port we can". The latter is desirable, the former is practically necessary for any nation which claims to be a power of any reckoning.

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As I said the majority of the Empires economic and Industrial power lies in the Reik basin. It doesn't really matter that you can import overseas to Ostland or Nordland when you then have to ship it across the empire before the materials can be used.

 

[Horium]

Is there a map of where the canals are gonna be?

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

While I agree that no one is trolling, I would say poisoning people is much more morally reprehensible than building infrastructure in your own territory.

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I'm not pro Marienburg by any margin.

but I'm not impressed by some of the self-justifications I'm reading.

We (empire) throw the first punch by building the canal, we know it would be a blow to them and did it anyways.

now, whether or not that's a good thing or bad, whether or not they over reacted or not or whether they are going to far or not etc etc. is a different thing.

but pretending that we are not the aggressors, that we didn't know that this would create a fight.... its not a good look.

In summary: The whole Marienburg and the canal deal is very complicated no matter how you look at.

Marienburg's whole reaction to the canal project could be labeled as a overreaction, but with reason. Anything that can and will weaken it monopoly of trade and river travel they will react poorly too.

Now the canal isn't just going to ruined Marienburg, or allow the Empire to conquer it. But something that can threaten both profit and the security of it Independence even in a small way, again they will react poorly and with cause.

The question is 'how far will Marienburg push' and 'how responsible are they for poison ' given others been listened that could have done it.

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I also feel that it needs to be pointed out that this isn't just 'they just going to lose a little bit of a profit or power'.

this is the latest in a long series of tits for tats between the empire and the city. the empire will do the same thing again if given the chance just like the Marienburg will take any chance to hit back.

its a tug of war where you don't want to give an inch... because the other side will take a mile if you show weakness.

to them, ever time the empire gets an advantage or wins a fight. they will have an easier time winning the next. (and its the same the other way.)

 

[masterofmadness]

If he really thinks like that, I'll think him daft. Plans with so many moving parts and unknowns do not work, period. Not even Tzeeench could pull that one off.

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Yeah, their is a good chance that the Chamberlain thinks we have somelong term plan but I doubt he think we are some incredible mastermind. Our involvement is not too hard to find if you look, we spent our time in stirland making the EIC and we set up the meeting with the King of Barak Varr after all.

My guess is if he thinks anything he thinks we developed a good long term plan, build a canal with dwarf assistance to cut out marienburg in a way they can't respond too without giving he Empire a chance to go after them with Dwarf support. But that we lost control of it due to factors we couldn't account for that is now beyond us and is in his lap but are still trying to help. He can reasonably assume that we would have no way of being able to know that the Empire would be so drained of strength from the Eonir and Skaven incidents as it is now.

Really the fact he hasn't said anything about our involvement is means he either doesn't know (which given his position is unlikely) or that he agrees with the basic idea even if he would have preferred to have it be something he could have timed better.