Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
I'm not pro Marienburg by any margin.

but I'm not impressed by some of the self-justifications I'm reading.

We (empire) throw the first punch by building the dam, we know it would be a blow to them and did it anyways.

now, whether or not that's a good thing or bad, whether or not they over reacted or not or whether they are going to far or not etc etc. is a different thing.

but pretending that we are not the aggressors, that we didn't know that this would create a fight.... its not a good look.
First of all, the project being built is a Canal, not a Dam. Second, its the Dwarves who are building the Canal, not the Empire. The Empire is merely not dissuading them from building it, since building it is well within the Dwarves' rights. Third, even if the Empire was building the canal, building a canal cannot be considered an aggressive move.

So you see, you are wrong in every single way. If Marienburg wanted this canal to not be built, they should have gone to the King of Barak Var and begged him on their knees to please not build it.
 
Last edited:
You are wrong in every single way.

First of all, the thing being built is a Canal, not a Dam. Second, its the Dwarves who are building the Canal, not the Empire. The Empire is merely not working to dissuade them from building it, since building it is well within the Dwarves' rights. Third, even if the Empire was building the canal, building a canal cannot be considered an aggressive move.
1: so dam was just a spelling mistake.

2:... look, there is technically right, and then there is politics.

I said my piece, I'm just going to leave it here. your post explains exactly what I'm saying better then I can, to be frank.
 
We (empire) throw the first punch by building the canal, we know it would be a blow to them and did it anyways.
That's not throwing a punch, that's going to the gym. It's self-improvement, not harming others.

They're engaging in pre-emptive "self-defence" by attacking because they know the Empire will be more able to weather their attacks if they don't stop the canal project.
 
Is there a map of where the canals are gonna be?
Here you go.

I certainly agree that cutting Marienburg out of some of the Empire's trade sucks for them, but I think it's a real torture of terms to assert that building infrastructure to connect your own rivers with that of your oldest remaining ally, entirely within your own territories, is an act of aggression against a third party thousands of miles away. This seems to me congruent with saying that Stirland building a gunpowder factory is an act of aggression against Nuln, because now Nuln won't be making as much money.

Is it hostile? Well, maybe. But "I am reliant on party A who doesn't like me and whom I don't like, so I take moves to rely on party B instead" might be hostile to party A, but I don't think it's aggressive.
 
Last edited:
I'm more of the opinion that Marienburg was using the threat of closing the rivers as their main bargaining piece to extract concessions from the empire, while sheltered from attack by Ulthan and the marshes. What we are doing with the canal does not make them any less safe, but it does reduce their commercial leverage, so it makes sense for them to spike it.

However, the empire will still be hurt by closing the rivers even after this, if to a lesser extent: the canal is not going to support the same volume, nor is there the infrastructure to reorient trade like that on a whim. Marienburg's threat to close the rivers is still one of 'we will hurt your empire unless you do what we want', but the canal reduces the amount of pain.

So this does really come off as looking like greed rather than self-defense.
 
Looking at the map of the canals the main beneficiaries seem to be Stirland, Averland and Ostermark. Well, Moot and Sylvania, too.

Other imperial provinces will indirectly benefit, too, but those above will profit immensely.
 
Looking at the map of the canals the main beneficiaries seem to be Stirland, Averland and Ostermark. Well, Moot and Sylvania, too.

Other imperial provinces will indirectly benefit, too, but those above will profit immensely.
Averland a bit less so, given that they currently have a monopoly on the only land route to Barak Varr, but they should still come out ahead from the increased traffic on rivers.
 
Averland a bit less so, given that they currently have a monopoly on the only land route to Barak Varr, but they should still come out ahead from the increased traffic on rivers.

Sure, but two trade vectors are better than one, anyway.

Proportionately, Stirland benefits the most, especialy considering it has dominion over Sylvania as well, which due to the new trade routes, might just become a net benefit sometime in the next several decades rather than in multiple centuries.
 
So... the route we are most interested in would be....

Destination: K8Ps
1: Death pass (Danger: Karak Drazh Orcs)
2: Blood river ( Danger Iron Claw orcs, Border Prince outlaws.)
Destination Barak Varr: (opening to the Black Gulf trade network)
4: Skull River (Danger: Border Prince outlaws, Goblins and Beast herds?)
Destination: Everpeak.
5: Black Fire Pass river into the Blackwater. (danger: Whatever is in Blackwater)
Destination: Canal. (Zhufbar, Moot, Karak Kadrin and Sylvania connections.)
6: Sylvania (danger:... does it need to be said?)
Destination: Striland.
7: The Stir, Aver, and Reik rivers. (Danger: River outlaws, best herds, orcs and goblins)
Destination: Altdorf.

... better, but not a fun journey a lot of the time.
 
As I said the majority of the Empires economic and Industrial power lies in the Reik basin. It doesn't really matter that you can import overseas to Ostland or Nordland when you then have to ship it across the empire before the materials can be used.
That's not a point without merit, but the Empire already ships it's stuff across the Empire. Raw materials and food flow between the provinces of the Empire anyway. Marienburg is almost certainly primarily exports to foreign powers, likely mostly the Southern Realms and Barak Varr, with a sideline in Ulthuan.

Cutting that off won't be good for trade, but it does mean that the Empire could survive without it, even if it costs. Likely that's part of what the Empire is doing now, shipping stuff overland to Nordland or Ostland and shipping out from there. The Empire could survive if the Reik suddenly had a magical portal at the end that teleported everything that entered it into a volcano. The problem isn't actually that the Empire can't do these things, it's that it's difficult to adjust, which results in extra cost, and time, until this becomes a norm or things get reset to the old standard.
 
I'm not pro Marienburg by any margin.

but I'm not impressed by some of the self-justifications I'm reading.

We (empire) throw the first punch by building the canal, we know it would be a blow to them and did it anyways.

now, whether or not that's a good thing or bad, whether or not they over reacted or not or whether they are going to far or not etc etc. is a different thing.

but pretending that we are not the aggressors, that we didn't know that this would create a fight.... its not a good look.
You're measuring with two very different rulers here.

The Empire is striking a blow by making a sovereign, infrastructural project in it's own lands because it knows this will undermine Marienburg economic dominance.

But Marienburg isn't when levieng the threat and reality of Sanction against the Empire, even though this actively and violently undermines the Empire.


Are you sure your not pro Marienburg?
 
Last edited:
It's not an Empire project.
It's a Barak Varr project, where they are employing Empire labour. Sure, the president of the independent EIC put the idea in their heads and are positioning themselves to take advantage.
Marienburgh tried to pressure the Empire to stop the Barak Varr project. It is possible they can't imagine it's not also a joint project with the Empire, but it isn't.
 
Honestly, I always assume it's not Nurglites, because I could never understand why anybody would join Nurgle to begin with. Sometimes this leaves me wrongfooted, when it turns out it's actually fucking Nurglites.

So basically: yes I agree with ReImagined, but possibly because of my own biases against the God of Plagues.
First, Nurglites can have impact far out of proportion to their numbers, because their weapon of choice is bioterrorism.

Second, Nurglites have access to plagues that make you Nurglite, or strongly predisposed to becoming Nurglite. This is probably a leading transmission vector of Nurgle-worship.

Third, Nurglites can fade into the background level of diseased, deformed, or mutated individuals who live as outcasts in this society. Which is hella problematic from a literary criticism perspective looking at Warhammer, but in-setting it's true... and it means Nurglites can recruit from those populations. If you're already suffering tertiary-stage syphilis, worshipping a god of disease who makes it hurt less may not seem so bad.

Eh, it's less a nuclear weapon and more "forces might show up where you aren't expecting them". If you are in fact expecting them, a lot of the punch is lost.
Yes... and no.

Marienburg is modeled after the Dutch, and the ability to use strategic inundations and swampy ground to render terrain impassable to enemy armies was a key part of their defense strategies and ability to resist outsider armies from the High Middle Ages clear up through the Early Modern period.

If the enemy knows your forces can march across a swamp, he's prepared for it.

But if the enemy finds out your forces can march across a swamp, before deciding to go to war, when his defenses rely on your inability to march over swamps...

Things get more complicated.

The Empire is running a deterrence-intimidation playbook - "You don't want to play this game."

Even if they do, it... probably doesn't change what'd happen? Marienburg was almost certainly able to force a battle in advantageous terrain last time because the Empire failed to bring enough wizards to compensate for Marienburg's maneuver advantage. This time the Empire would bring enough magical firepower to make any engagement field engagement a foregone conclusion, so I'd expect Marienburg to hunker down behind its walls anyway. /shrug
Yes, but that is also an area where the ability to magically create paths over swamps comes in handy. Even if the paths aren't permanent, they lend themselves to gambits like:

1) Cast MRoW on swamp.
2) Combat engineers rush out and use firm footing of MRoW path to lay down corduroy road or other temporarily measures.
3) Repeat.

News at 11, aggressive imperial power has self justifying narrative for oppressing colony!
I mean, Marienburg isn't really... a colony... in the normal sense of the word? They're perfectly capable of being aggressive and imperialist themselves, too, they're just weaker so we don't notice as much.

The decision-making class of Marienburg are, and have historically been, no more oppressed by the Empire than the decision-making class of America was oppressed by Britain in the 1700s. Unless you're going to tell me the American Revolution was a deeply righteous anti-colonial undertaking (a shaky proposition), it's hard to sell the actions of the Marienburgers that way.

"Small, with large enemies" isn't the same thing as "unjustly oppressed."

I don't think this is as big a problem for Marienburg as it is for some others, though. Dispel. Marienburg has its own little college of magic, it's much easier to muster mages for the defense of the city than for an offensive campaign, and Rite of Way is very much an all-or-nothing spell where a moment's flickering drops your army in the drink.
True- but having to spread out your magicians to make sure there's one in position to get over there and dispel any attempts to magically establish a bridgehead before the enemy up and creates one creates its own problems.

Also the noted comments about how this kind of spell has big implications in the 'maneuver' stage of combat before the armies even make contact.

An operation that would usually require an army to conspicuously build or capture boats to cross a river can instead be done almost immediately as long as the enemy isn't right there, in force (that is to say, with caster support) to contest the river crossing.

A mass of terrain a few miles across that an army would normally be hopelessly incapable of crossing in good order without exhausting itself becomes a mass of terrain an enemy army can cross within an hour or two unless your caster support interferes.
 
It's not an Empire project.
It's a Barak Varr project, where they are employing Empire labour. Sure, the president of the independent EIC put the idea in their heads and are positioning themselves to take advantage.
Marienburgh tried to pressure the Empire to stop the Barak Varr project. It is possible they can't imagine it's not also a joint project with the Empire, but it isn't.
They basically can't apply any overt pressure to the dwarves without ruinous consequences, so whether or not the Empire are directly involved it's the only avenue they have to respond other than indirect sabotage or an actual war.
 
First, Nurglites can have impact far out of proportion to their numbers, because their weapon of choice is bioterrorism.

Second, Nurglites have access to plagues that make you Nurglite, or strongly predisposed to becoming Nurglite. This is probably a leading transmission vector of Nurgle-worship.

Third, Nurglites can fade into the background level of diseased, deformed, or mutated individuals who live as outcasts in this society. Which is hella problematic from a literary criticism perspective looking at Warhammer, but in-setting it's true... and it means Nurglites can recruit from those populations. If you're already suffering tertiary-stage syphilis, worshipping a god of disease who makes it hurt less may not seem so bad.

Yes... and no.

Marienburg is modeled after the Dutch, and the ability to use strategic inundations and swampy ground to render terrain impassable to enemy armies was a key part of their defense strategies and ability to resist outsider armies from the High Middle Ages clear up through the Early Modern period.

If the enemy knows your forces can march across a swamp, he's prepared for it.

But if the enemy finds out your forces can march across a swamp, before deciding to go to war, when his defenses rely on your inability to march over swamps...

Things get more complicated.

Yes, but that is also an area where the ability to magically create paths over swamps comes in handy. Even if the paths aren't permanent, they lend themselves to gambits like:

1) Cast MRoW on swamp.
2) Combat engineers rush out and use firm footing of MRoW path to lay down corduroy road or other temporarily measures.
3) Repeat.

I mean, Marienburg isn't really... a colony... in the normal sense of the word? They're perfectly capable of being aggressive and imperialist themselves, too, they're just weaker so we don't notice as much.

The decision-making class of Marienburg are, and have historically been, no more oppressed by the Empire than the decision-making class of America was oppressed by Britain in the 1700s. Unless you're going to tell me the American Revolution was a deeply righteous anti-colonial undertaking (a shaky proposition), it's hard to sell the actions of the Marienburgers that way.

"Small, with large enemies" isn't the same thing as "unjustly oppressed."

True- but having to spread out your magicians to make sure there's one in position to get over there and dispel any attempts to magically establish a bridgehead before the enemy up and creates one creates its own problems.

Also the noted comments about how this kind of spell has big implications in the 'maneuver' stage of combat before the armies even make contact.

An operation that would usually require an army to conspicuously build or capture boats to cross a river can instead be done almost immediately as long as the enemy isn't right there, in force (that is to say, with caster support) to contest the river crossing.

A mass of terrain a few miles across that an army would normally be hopelessly incapable of crossing in good order without exhausting itself becomes a mass of terrain an enemy army can cross within an hour or two unless your caster support interferes.
The utility of RoW largely depends on how large a bridge it can make, and for how long. It could be anywhere from a meter to a mile, a minute to a day we don't know yet. It's possible RoW is relatively useless for crossing the marshes around Marienburg, or fording the Reik or whatever, simply because it's limited to two meters or whatever.
 
Well, that's only going to further the Chamberlain's impression that Mathilde is an absolute strategic genius. It looks like a plan decades in the making. Let's go through it.
  1. Mathilde, as a Journeywoman, takes the position of Stirlands Spymaster. Her big accomplishment during that time is keeping Stirland from exploding financially, by retrieving tax records and killing the League. He's aware of both, since the Spymaster has had a man in the council the whole time, and the Chamberlain would get told either as it happened (because Stirland potentially going poof is important for him) or when he asked for a brief on Mathilde before their meeting.
    The collapse of Stirland would've made trade along the Stir extremely difficult, and the league would've prevented it as well, so there's step one.
  2. She leverages the destruction of the League to get her own company, which then starts nailing down that trade route. Nevermind Mathilde didn't really have anything to do with it, it's very easy to image Wilhelmine acting on her behalf. Wilhelmine doesn't own the largest slice of the stock.
    1. She also leverages it to get a knighthood, presumably as a way around the Vow of Poverty that didn't actually turn out to be necessary. Also, getting two boons for one action. Or maybe it's a part of her plan that hasn't come to fruition yet.
  3. Stirland uses it's improved wealth to kick the shit out of Sylvania, thereby removing another danger to the river trade.
    1. And you know, dealing with an ancient threat at the same time. The mark of a true master is accomplishing many things at once.
    2. The fact that Abelheim dies right before the conclusion of the campaign would be... notable. In fact, let's sidetrack
      1. His death lets her command the final battle, which gets her a ton of credit with the dwarfs
      2. He gets replaced by someone unseasoned and unconcerned with river trade.
      3. She gets to remove herself from Stirland without giving the appearance of wanting to.
      4. 1 and 3 together nicely set up the next step.
  4. She joins the Expedition to K8P, and is instrumental in its reconquest.
    1. The main point would likely just be to increase her pull with the dwarfs, though the impact of the easier silk road would be noted.
    2. A smart and diligent man would note that reconnecting Karak Azul brought a wave of gold and steal to Barak Varr, making the canal project a lot more plausible.
    3. When the silk comes online, they'll lose their mind. How could she know?!?
  5. Barak Varr starts its project at the behest of Mathilde's agent (totally), and things move towards the endgame.
    1. I wonder if someone could pin the Karak Kadrin project on her as well. Or maybe on her master, since this kind of looks like a scheme by the Grey Order as a whole, and Mathilde is just the frontwoman.
      1. Incidentally, if the Chamberlain knew that her Master killed the last Empress, while the current one is a Ranaldian with plans for Marienburg, and on which Mathilde has a nice bit of blackmail, he'd be impressed. Very much. And also very, very concerned, because how do you even deal with that? The Templars are suspect, the Greys might be behind it, they can kill an Empress, so who do you get to deal with this, and how do you survive long enough to try? Is it maybe just better to hope they're acting for the Empire?
  6. Then she uses another dwarf expedition to get the financing on some further fuck-Marienburg-moves. Hiring Asarnil, and developing +testing that handy-dandy terrain ignoring spell. Plus Dwarfen goodwill towards the Empire.
    1. Incidentally, the expedition forces could make for a very nasty attacking force against Marienburg. The landships to break through the gates or walls (with the spell plus their speed and toughness to get them there), the wizards to counter any magical answers, and then a ton of monstrous cavalry to run wild inside the city. I mean, can you imagine trying to stop a hundred kittybirds inside the city when they're just trying to fuck things up. That's terrible for morale. Especially if you do the whole raid at night. It won't make any friends, but it's certainly a strong statement. Remember the last time you made us come over there?
In conclusion, Mathilde is an impossibly skilled chessmaster, running a brilliant and expansive plot towards unknown ends but also to really, really screw over Marienburg. Can we torture logic enough to tie Ubersreik and the other Fuck-The-Skaven bits into it?

Hmm, we have WOG that she's a vampire, but Boney never said which vampire. I'll just not that there's this very powerful vampire known for her skills at intrigue and her far reaching information network, who's also fond of living in Dwarf Karaks associated with silver and who's quite the capable necromancer and inventor/adaptor of magic.
Someday, when the Chamberlain lays all this out for Mathilde, she is going to stare into the middle distance and say:

"They shouldn't have taken the library."
 
And as for "Marienburg's culture"... My (admittedly spotty) knowledge of the sourcebooks basically has it boil down to the entire city fitting the "generic Imperial merchant" archetype, with the rulers being that with more money and the pride to match. They were an Imperial city for ages, lots of people moved there, and the writers weren't exactly concerned with making it different from the usual formula (except when they were the bad guys - then they got portrayed as the usual formula, but more greedy and evil).
Nope. Look at the names. Marienburg is clearly the Dutch expy and the Dutch really don't like to be called Germans.
 
For me, sticking 'Mathilde's' on the front of a simple and if I may say fairly elegant Rite of Way pun undercuts the effect. We didn't hammer it home with Mathilde's Staff of Mistery.

Given my theory that younger Mathilde's initial goal was to make her permanent mark on the world and ensure she couldn't again be erased- the way her parents and village did- a more confident Lady Magister Mathilde, acclaimed Wizard and Doer of Deeds wouldn't feel so, well, insecure.
Evolving motives. Maybe the first time she put Mathilde on a spell it was insecurity, but since then - with MMAP and MATHILDE - the motive has been nothing but Mathilde getting a kick out of it.
 
Not really. Like, sure, having river access makes ports better but they're hardly necessary for major ports. And specifically, having access to the sea as a whole is a very different prospect from having a better port.
Without railroads, river access is necessary for major ports, because otherwise there's no practical way to ship bulk goods overland more than about a day's walk from the port. Ports that aren't connected to a river are at best marginally useful.

It's "more expensive" in the sense that having a tame tiger as a riding mount is "more expensive" than having a horse or a donkey- so expensive that it turns what is otherwise a very desirable thing into an almost unattainable and largely useless luxury.

They already weren't contributing anything to the Empire's land wars. They managed to get out of that one by the dastardly scheme of being a port city half way across the Empire from any serious threats.
...Which is exactly the kind of thing taxation is supposed to address, because it lets you tax a secure central province to fund the soldiers and fortifications that keep it secure. Now Marienburg gets the best of both worlds- it is defended by armies that it does not, by and large, have to pay for.

I'm not pro Marienburg by any margin.

but I'm not impressed by some of the self-justifications I'm reading.

We (empire) throw the first punch by building the canal, we know it would be a blow to them and did it anyways.
By the same logic under which building the canal is a punch, the previous status quo was Marienburg having the Empire locked in a submission wrestling hold. You're arguing that it's a 'punch' against Marienburg for the Empire to be able to export goods to the sea from its core territory without passing through Marienburg to do it.

If that's true, then what do we call a status quo where Marienburg can prevent the Empire from exporting goods to the sea at will, and extract wealth from the Empire in exchange for that privilege, while contributing nothing to the Empire military that keeps Marienburg from being burned down by orcs or Everchosen?

If I wake up with someone's hands around my neck, even if they aren't squeezing, I'm not being "provocative" by punching that person.

but pretending that we are not the aggressors, that we didn't know that this would create a fight.... its not a good look.
There's a difference between knowing a fight will happen and being the aggressor. Some people are vicious, or bigoted, or willing to use violence to protect their special privileges. Sometimes inconveniencing a powerful person causes them to choose to fight you. That doesn't make you the aggressor.

this is the latest in a long series of tits for tats between the empire and the city. the empire will do the same thing again if given the chance just like the Marienburg will take any chance to hit back.
The Empire will... what, dig two canals? This doesn't strike me as very reasonable, and even if we acknowledge that this is the mindset of the Marienburger leaders, it doesn't inherently make them right and the Empire wrong.

Someday, when the Chamberlain lays all this out for Mathilde, she is going to stare into the middle distance and say:

"They shouldn't have taken the library."
Remind me when that happened again?
 
Remind me when that happened again?
He's talking about the library in Marienburg. When Marienburg went independent, they took its library with them in the sense that they forbid Imperials from accessing it. Guile's story there is that Mathilde made a massive plot against Marienburg specifically because they wouldn't let her read their library's books.
 
Without railroads, river access is necessary for major ports, because otherwise there's no practical way to ship bulk goods overland more than about a day's walk from the port. Ports that aren't connected to a river are at best marginally useful.

It's "more expensive" in the sense that having a tame tiger as a riding mount is "more expensive" than having a horse or a donkey- so expensive that it turns what is otherwise a very desirable thing into an almost unattainable and largely useless luxury.

...Which is exactly the kind of thing taxation is supposed to address, because it lets you tax a secure central province to fund the soldiers and fortifications that keep it secure. Now Marienburg gets the best of both worlds- it is defended by armies that it does not, by and large, have to pay for.

By the same logic under which building the canal is a punch, the previous status quo was Marienburg having the Empire locked in a submission wrestling hold. You're arguing that it's a 'punch' against Marienburg for the Empire to be able to export goods to the sea from its core territory without passing through Marienburg to do it.

If that's true, then what do we call a status quo where Marienburg can prevent the Empire from exporting goods to the sea at will, and extract wealth from the Empire in exchange for that privilege, while contributing nothing to the Empire military that keeps Marienburg from being burned down by orcs or Everchosen?

If I wake up with someone's hands around my neck, even if they aren't squeezing, I'm not being "provocative" by punching that person.

There's a difference between knowing a fight will happen and being the aggressor. Some people are vicious, or bigoted, or willing to use violence to protect their special privileges. Sometimes inconveniencing a powerful person causes them to choose to fight you. That doesn't make you the aggressor.

The Empire will... what, dig two canals? This doesn't strike me as very reasonable, and even if we acknowledge that this is the mindset of the Marienburger leaders, it doesn't inherently make them right and the Empire wrong.

Remind me when that happened again?
When Marienburg became independent, they took their library of Verena with them.

Edit: Weber'd
 
Without railroads, river access is necessary for major ports, because otherwise there's no practical way to ship bulk goods overland more than about a day's walk from the port. Ports that aren't connected to a river are at best marginally useful.

It's "more expensive" in the sense that having a tame tiger as a riding mount is "more expensive" than having a horse or a donkey- so expensive that it turns what is otherwise a very desirable thing into an almost unattainable and largely useless luxury.

...Which is exactly the kind of thing taxation is supposed to address, because it lets you tax a secure central province to fund the soldiers and fortifications that keep it secure. Now Marienburg gets the best of both worlds- it is defended by armies that it does not, by and large, have to pay for.
Portsmouth has been a major port since about the third century. Venicewas at the height of its power well before the invention of the railway. Etc etc. Position is far more important than river access.

That's an interesting assertion. Do you have any proof? Because sure, it makes things more expensive and difficult, but I highly doubt it makes it so impractical as to be useless. It's not like those trade routes don't already exist, even if they're going be under greater amounts of strain now. But that's a consequence of the sudden change, not of their existence.

Except, as far as I can tell, the only Imperial taxes mentioned are excise taxes. Elector counts tax their own provinces and raise their own armies based on that, and Imperial institutions are supported by their own efforts, not state funding. See the Colleges selling their services and tithing members. And the argument that Marienburg is defended by armies it doesn't contribute to applies to most polities in the Old World. The Empire doesn't pay for Kislev's defense. Nor do, as far as I can tell, the various Electors pay each other anything for their defense.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top