Why are they going to risk the annihilation of their city by engaging in this sort of behavior when they have had their military destroyed though? It basically requires them to be psychotically determined when if they just take the loss many of them are still in position to be very wealthy.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Why are they going to risk the annihilation of their city by engaging in this sort of behavior when they have had their military destroyed though? It basically requires them to be psychotically determined when if they just take the loss many of them are still in position to be very wealthy.
- Location
- Florida
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
I'm willing to play economics here. I initially wanted to go for the blockade but man a lot of the rhetoric surrounding that vote just soured me on it.
I'm willing to play economics here. I initially wanted to go for the blockade but man a lot of the rhetoric surrounding that vote just soured me on it.
- Location
- USA
I'm not saying the elves couldn't win, I'm saying they can't afford to commit what would be needed and that any war would be entirely too costly with Naggaroth waiting in the wings.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The person they quoted literally only posted a vote. I don't think it's acceptable to start haranguing people for their votes.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
There's comments going around on how the Dwarves would set fixed canal tarrifs based on what their work is worth to them based on Dwarf accounting of effort and investment as opposed to being based on sly assessment of supply and demand.
That talk sparked curiosity in me as to how Barak Varr economy and trade actually functions. Material goods are either common or rare and either useful/valuable or not (on a spectrum). So no matter what, any Dwarf would still be beholden to some kind of supply and demand.
But when it comes to services, like construction, maintenance, rent, appraisal, crafting, armed protection, banking, cooking, and whatever else a non-Dwarf can get a Dwarf to do for him I imagine calculations might be very different than how it would be done in a Human free market.
I don't know if I am on the mark there as far as Dwarves of the Karaz Ankor in general are concerned, but even if I am, Barak Varr is a special case and has witnessed non-Dwarves trading with other non-Dwarves under their roof for centuries. So they might follow supply and demand more closely than your usual Dwarf polity after all.
tl;dr ~ How do Dwarves in Barak Varr set prices for services? Does it differ by customer race? How does it compare to how other Holds do it?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
It is not, because the Time of Woes kept going.
- Pronouns
- It/They
Because The high elves aren't gonna want to go to war with KA and the empire.
Because even if they do some how win (They wont), chaos will proceed to roll them.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Eh, Malekith is probably planning something, but he doesn't actually invade all that often. It's something like once every 1700 years on average.
The Time of Woes as a historical period lasted about 1500 years. Unlike Ulthuan, the Dwarfs were not actually engaged in a war for that entire period, they had a large number of conflicts, with some high periods and some low periods. I figure it about evens out.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
The dwarves can't afford a war either, but if you guys think pitting the two factions with towering egos the size of god damned planets against each other wont lead to just that I don't know what to tell you.
A dust up between Barak Varr and the marienburg Elves will almost definitely kick off a war, because cooler heads will not prevail.
As a general rule Dwarves hate Elves, Elves hate Dwarves.
The novels for warhammer showcase this consistently, exceptional dwarves and exceptional elves can look past their prior conflicts but as a general trend the average elf or dwarf would be all to eager to engage in a 2nd round of the war if they can paint themselves as morally superior for doing it.
This blockade busting idea seems like the perfect match for it because the dwarves will view it as stopping an unconscionable economic attack, and the elves will view it as an unacceptable attack on their sovereignty over Marienburg.
Why in the love of all that's sensible would you want to put the immovable object and the unstoppable force on a collision course?
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Voting for this because it is the honest answer. Could the Dwarfs bankroll the Empire? Sure. But would they? Not by choice. If the situation is presented to the King of Barak Varr and a solution asked for then the answer will be 'Dreadnoughts'. And not just because it is the option that costs him and his people the least.
Voting for this because it is the honest answer. Could the Dwarfs bankroll the Empire? Sure. But would they? Not by choice. If the situation is presented to the King of Barak Varr and a solution asked for then the answer will be 'Dreadnoughts'. And not just because it is the option that costs him and his people the least.
Guilds set prices based on what a service is 'worth' according to the skill level of the one doing it and the amount of time it takes them. That doesn't differ in Barak Varr. Charging more than the set price is seen as lying about your skill level, and is shameful. Charging less cheapens not only your work, but the work of everyone else in the Guild, and is shameful. Any Dwarf that consistently does either is likely to be expelled from the Guild, and thus barred by law from performing that service.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
That ship sailed when we started the canals. We are dealing with the fallout of moves that pitted the dwarves against Marianburg a while ago- and if the point of elves having a hand in Marianburg is to control the empire via a trade valve, then the canals run counter to elven interests and the have a reason to escalate until the canals stop.
So I think making it clear that the dwarves won't stop and the empire is not interested in having leashes on it is something that needs to happen sooner or later. I'd prefer it be before we exhaust ourselves trying to build temporary overland routes.
If the elves AREN'T committed to Marianburg as a strategic asset, and are willing to accept canals, then they are likely to brush over a skirmish in Marianburg as long as none of their people were hurt.
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- Location
- Earth
Once the canal exists, who are you going to be inclined to trade with, the polity that's been blockading you for the past 5 years, or the ally that's been propping up your economy in reponse during that time? I think the political concerns trump economic ones in that situation.
Edit: Wow, the thread moved four pages. Sheesh.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I assume rent for constructed things (like rooms, boats, canals) works similar and that the person that suggested that canal tarrifs might be fixed for decades and only change if nobody ends up using them otherwise was very close to the truth?
- Location
- Greece
Before we go on, let us think about the scenarios rationally.
Option 1: gunboat diplomacy
Scenario 1: Elves wash their hands of the whole thing, Marienburg folds, we win
Scenario 2: Elves accept Marienburgas a protectorate, then they order itto stop playing silly buggers because they do not want to antagonize the dawi, then they order the empire to cease hostilities. We win, even though the elves get to grandstand.
Scenario 3: The elf warhawks try to take advantage of this, there is a skirmish, the high king cuts them off, we win but its bloody.
Scenario 4: the elf warhawks play their cards just right. Everybody loses. This takes an absurd number of bad coincidences to happen, and I am only entertraining it because Tzeencth exist, otherwise I would just laugh it off and vote for war, no neutrality.
Option 2: 5 years
Only 1 scenario: we always win... if we can survive 5 years. Those years would be bloody for both Karaz Ankor and the Empire, cuz they are both constantly under siege and economic pressure, but at least we can maybe attempt to handle the consequences if orcs attack, or chaos takes advantage, or the counts take advantage of that for playing silly buggers. Question is, how bloody will be those 5 years? We may have to give up Stirland, we may have to see dwarfs dying guarding caravans, we may have to see peasants starving. Its a lot less likely to escalate as much as the other scenario, but it may still hurt both sides dearly and irrevocably, and in fact, it has a bigger chance to do so. Question is, is that worth even a tiny risk of nuclear war?
I cnnot decide, which is why I am voting both. But I am finding arguments that claim that either option is stupid to be unreasonable. Saying "I can never risk even a tiny chance of a nuke" or " we must gamble so that we can save lives, the odds are in our side, no need to spend lives which such good odds" sound to me like much better justification than saying that the worst case scenario of either choice will surely happen no matter what.
Option 1: gunboat diplomacy
Scenario 1: Elves wash their hands of the whole thing, Marienburg folds, we win
Scenario 2: Elves accept Marienburgas a protectorate, then they order itto stop playing silly buggers because they do not want to antagonize the dawi, then they order the empire to cease hostilities. We win, even though the elves get to grandstand.
Scenario 3: The elf warhawks try to take advantage of this, there is a skirmish, the high king cuts them off, we win but its bloody.
Scenario 4: the elf warhawks play their cards just right. Everybody loses. This takes an absurd number of bad coincidences to happen, and I am only entertraining it because Tzeencth exist, otherwise I would just laugh it off and vote for war, no neutrality.
Option 2: 5 years
Only 1 scenario: we always win... if we can survive 5 years. Those years would be bloody for both Karaz Ankor and the Empire, cuz they are both constantly under siege and economic pressure, but at least we can maybe attempt to handle the consequences if orcs attack, or chaos takes advantage, or the counts take advantage of that for playing silly buggers. Question is, how bloody will be those 5 years? We may have to give up Stirland, we may have to see dwarfs dying guarding caravans, we may have to see peasants starving. Its a lot less likely to escalate as much as the other scenario, but it may still hurt both sides dearly and irrevocably, and in fact, it has a bigger chance to do so. Question is, is that worth even a tiny risk of nuclear war?
I cnnot decide, which is why I am voting both. But I am finding arguments that claim that either option is stupid to be unreasonable. Saying "I can never risk even a tiny chance of a nuke" or " we must gamble so that we can save lives, the odds are in our side, no need to spend lives which such good odds" sound to me like much better justification than saying that the worst case scenario of either choice will surely happen no matter what.
Correct. They'll charge what canal use is 'worth', not what the market will bear.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Out of interest what trade does theempire even do through marienburg that isnt just luxury items? I cant imagine its food given the size of the empire and how long travel time is.
- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
This is the best option. I've laid out my thinking before. But here's the basic situation. First, the other leading option isn't honest, in my opinion. It's not what the dwarves are likely to do. Second, Mathilde doesn't like Marienburg, so screw them.
This is the most 'in character' option I see.
This is the best option. I've laid out my thinking before. But here's the basic situation. First, the other leading option isn't honest, in my opinion. It's not what the dwarves are likely to do. Second, Mathilde doesn't like Marienburg, so screw them.
This is the most 'in character' option I see.
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- Location
- Earth
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Metals, fabrics, specific kinds of timber, spices, alcohol, weapons. And luxuries aren't vital, but the tax money from them can be.
