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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Erandil said:
.... oh really



Granted there are other examples more favourable to ironclad ships yet at the same time we are speaking about the premier port city in the old world which can realistically only be threatened from the sea and had decades if not centuries to build its defences. And which unlike in reality can also draw on magical experts, fantastical weapons and the like to defend itself...
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As you say, there are more favourable examples to choose from. Given that we would be putting Dwarven ships up against manling defences, I'm pretty sure those would be the more relevant examples.

I take your point that IRL historically between peer powers it wasn't a sure thing, though.
 
DragonParadox said:
The resources needed to cocupy the river are far lesser than what you would need to carve alternative paths over and Empire the size of all central Europe.
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Yes, but the point i was making is that 'its just having some ships there for a few weeks' is dramatically underestimating what it would represent

Edit: Especially withwhat @Asheram pointed out above...if this is barak varr's navy as it says, they have to go *a long way around* to get to marienburg before the canals are done. Like...i don't know much about steam ship speeds, or the details of the warhammer world's size, but my understanding is that from barak varr to marienburg is like...theequivalent of going from not!venice across most of the not!mediterranean, the up the coast along to...at least not!calais, probably further? With steamships and presumably minimal opportunities for refueling and the like?
 
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If this starts the actual reclamation if Marienberg, I hope Mathilde writes very complete memoirs before she dies, ones mentioning this conversation that somehow escape being burnt. It's continually doing this kind of thing that'll have her labelled as 'that' Grey, along with 'that' Settra and 'that' Van Hal.
 
ninjafish said:
You do realize that this is asking the dwarves to bankroll the empire for however it takes for the canals to finish right?

Massively depletely dwarven coffers and saddling the empire with a massive fucking debt that they will have to pay or get super grudged?

yeah no, war is preferrable, because this is just asking greenskins and beastmen to roll over everyone.

So basically fuck marienburg, and fuck the elves if they get involved.
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Belegar has so much money even we hadn't been able to figure out how to use it. It's literally just sitting locked in a vault doing nothing. This would not only make it do something, it'd be a massive and extremely effective investment with long-term benefits all the way up to national security and international geopolitical stability. I'd say that those are the kinds of benefits you can't buy for any amount of money, but in this case we've been presented with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do precisely that.
 
ninjafish said:
You do realize that this is asking the dwarves to bankroll the empire for however it takes for the canals to finish right?

Massively depletely dwarven coffers and saddling the empire with a massive fucking debt that they will have to pay or get super grudged?

yeah no, war is preferrable, because this is just asking greenskins and beastmen to roll over everyone.

So basically fuck marienburg, and fuck the elves if they get involved.
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If orcs become a problem the colleges can roll out some battle mages and crush them, after the waaaghh lectures Mathilde gave I expect the Shamans to get an absolute rolicking. War is not preferable even a small scale skirmish is going to be more expensive than the alternative an actual full on war would be fucking devastating.
 
ninjafish said:
You do realize that this is asking the dwarves to bankroll the empire for however it takes for the canals to finish right?

Massively depletely dwarven coffers and saddling the empire with a massive fucking debt that they will have to pay or get super grudged?

yeah no, war is preferrable, because this is just asking greenskins and beastmen to roll over everyone.

So basically fuck marienburg, and fuck the elves if they get involved.
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I don't disagree, but maybe don't pick out a random voter and start an argument with them about why their vote is wrong if they haven't said anything else.
 
MiracleGrow said:
[x] No, but they could help break the blockade

WAR OF THE BEARD 2 LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Uhtread said:
[X] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.

Marienburg is a cancer best excised
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ninjafish said:
Let marienburg get grudged, we can burn it and build a new city on the ashes.

A city of Human-Dwarf Bromance.
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I've seen a bunch of posts like this, essentially advocating war for war's sake. Does the thread have a Khorne voting block? :V
TotallyNotEvil said:
There's another angle to consider here, which some posters raised up but is not being picked: this is still in the realm of diplomacy.

Having a dwarf show up at the table where the Marienburg ambassador is expecting the Empire's capitulation and tell them to stop playing silly buggers or they will get a 20th century fleet shoved up their Renaissance asses might well be enough to make them decide this is not worth it.
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Marienburg knows Barak Var is doing this. They may not just expect the Dwarves to show up for diplomacy, they might be counting on it. What they won't expect is for us to ignore them. Let them throw a fit in their corner while the canals are being built, and once they realize they're loosing more money by blockading than they will by re-opening trade, they'll stop. At the worst, we still have K8P's infinite2​ money, and Marienburg can either open up for trade again, or suck it for 5 years and loose their stangelhold anyways.

Seriously, though, everyone. We're talking to the diplo expert. He wants to hear that a diplomatic solution is possible, not us suggesting we should escalate into warfare. And unless [] They can make up for the loss in trade is a lie, it's the answer he most wants to hear (and that he can make the most use of.)
 
I think I'm going to take a little break from the thread.

Seeing "the Elves are completely rational actors and not involve themselves when their allies ships and port is burning down around their ears" and "Mariburg must be destroyed for attempting economic sanctions to keep it's dominant position" next to each other is just too much.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
If orcs become a problem the colleges can roll out some battle mages and crush them, after the waaaghh lectures Mathilde gave I expect the Shamans to get an absolute rolicking. War is not preferable even a small scale skirmish is going to be more expensive than the alternative an actual full on war would be fucking devastating.
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Plus the "break the blockade" plan only works if Barak Varr can leave a significant fraction of its navy - FIVE DREADNOUGHTS - sitting on Marienburg for five years. We have no idea what's going to come up five years from now. If something attacks the Empire from the sea instead of from inland and pulls the dreadnoughts off, not only will we have fought a war and left those dreadnoughts out of position, they won't even have accomplished their stated objective in starting a war with Marienburg!
 
DragonParadox said:
Are we really the fulcrum upon which everything turns? Are the elves and dwarfs idiots just itching to commit suicide?
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No I don't think we are the fulcrum, the situation may be however. TotallyNotEvil pointed out the risk of taking "They Can Make Up For It", significantly weakens the Empire and the Karaz Ankor for at least five years. I just wanted to note that if thing go wrong with "helping break the blockade" the situation may be worse.

I know little of Warhammer, but from what I read on the wiki to keep up with different quests, it is my understanding that yes, stupidity (and pride) are a big problem with Dwarfs & Elves. Going full war may not be immediate thanks to a few characters, but rising tension will be unavoidable, if not by stupidity, by Chaos.

We offer only advice, we may influence it, the decision is not ours in the end, but I would advise caution. That said, I don't know enough of Warhammer, I have no idea what is the right decision to make.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Nope, Magnus the pious is responsible for creating the westerland province and putting the merchants princes of the area in charge, they were made semi independent. No EC only had to give taxes. Deiter fucked up and they declared Independence unanimously afterwards.
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BoneyM said:
Dieter IV, brought the Empire to the brink of ruin, culminating in selling Marienburg it's independence
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Yes, the Imperial Provice of Westerland was gaining in economic independence beforehand, but that is pretty quest-categorical.
 
Derpmind said:
Seriously, though, everyone. We're talking to the diplo expert. He wants to hear that a diplomatic solution is possible, not us suggesting we should escalate into warfare. And unless [] They can make up for the loss in trade is a lie, it's the answer he most wants to hear (and that he can make the most use of.)
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This is a fantastic point. Let's give the Empire's foreign diplomacy advisor a foreign-diplomatic solution!
 
The pace at which people are responding to this thread is insane. Want to put that out there first and foremost.

Second: This is such a brilliant bit of writing, narrative threading and actions-have-consequences'ing. Opening up a second huge trade vein for the Empire would of course upset the main benefactor of the original trade vein. It's so obvious! And of course they're going to throw around what weight they can to prevent that from happening. It's an absolute ******* move, but it's also entirely understandable from a nationalist point of view.

Third: The actual vote.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

I'm not willing to escalate to blockade-busting or marching armies. Let's take the hit for however long Marienburg actually keeps up it's embargo and make it very clear that hey, guess what? If you're gonna do this, we're gonna start doing it without you and we'll not just do what trade is convenient via the new canals, we'll do as much trade as possible via the new route and leave you guys to eventually come out poorer for it than if you'd just been chill about this. I'm assuming Marienburg will see the writing on the wall and back down. If it doesn't work, at least give it time until we can get a few more provinces ready to give this their undivided attention.
 
Called it, I knew the Chamberlain would be asking about the canals. Wasn't expecting the vote that came with it though.

On the one hand, accurately representing how the Dwarfs would react is important. On the other hand, doing so might lead to a shooting war which, among other, more grievous results, could lead to complications for the elfcation down the line. Hmmm.

I think I'll go with the less aggressive option for now. That leaves room to escalate in the future should Marienburg attempt to interfere with the canals during this period, at which point going fire and sword on them would be totally justified and twice as satisfying. Plus I'm not sure I want to further the stereotype of Mathilde being a grey wizard who starts wars and ends them, not preventing them in the first place.

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
 
Holy shit, how is there a 30 vote lead for gunboat diplomacy when we're the weak party?

The High elves will absolutely not let this stand, they literally can't. They have defensive treaties with Marienburg.
 
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