Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The other option seems to be a land invasion, which is a different proposition, yes. Breaking the blockade doesn't end in the Empire annexing Marienburg. Not right away, anyway.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
You can't blockade your own port. Not letting other ships enter your territory from downriver is still not a blockade, your own waters belong to you. The fact that it means our riverine navy can't make use of the port is tough shit for us, that's still not a blockade.
- Location
- Brazil
.... oh really
Granted there are other examples more favourable to ironclad ships yet at the same time we are speaking about the premier port city in the old world which can realistically only be threatened from the sea and had decades if not centuries to build its defences. And which unlike in reality can also draw on magical experts, fantastical weapons and the like to defend itself...
As well as costing them influence.
You can't land invade Marienburg there is just no way to get a sufficient army through the swamp so no it can't be that.
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
What does influence mean? Looking good to their allies? The ability to ride out and smack orcs?
- Location
- Australia
The Empire managed it once, the first time it conquered Marienburg.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
"Break the blockade" means do a smash on their ships and ability to actually enforce their borders. It's war. It's just not a war where the intent is to topple the leadership and take over.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
It is entirely possible for a ship to go through Marienburg without stopping there, though it would be odd, unless there is a blockade in place.
blockade/blɒˈkeɪd/
an act or means of sealing off a place to prevent goods or people from entering or leaving.It's a weirdly pedantic point for you to make, but it's also just wrong.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
I'm sure others have commented on it, but just from skimming the thread to catch up i saw some talk of breaking a blockade being 'weeks as opposed to years', and i'm kind of confused as to how thats the timescale some people think 'rallying for, travelling to, and engaging in a major naval offensive followed by the likely need to *occupy* the river in question to prevent rebuilding the naval infrastructure' works on?
(Also while it seems to have decreased over the last few pages especially with boney calling out the worst of it, can we *not* engage in protagonist centered morality by proclaiming that Marienburg would 'deserve' being destroyed if it dared to object to *checks note* 'being told it doesn't actually have sovereignty over its national waters, and it has to let our ships through the river flowing through the middle of their city because the dwarves have bigger guns than them?'...)
I'm sure others have commented on it, but just from skimming the thread to catch up i saw some talk of breaking a blockade being 'weeks as opposed to years', and i'm kind of confused as to how thats the timescale some people think 'rallying for, travelling to, and engaging in a major naval offensive followed by the likely need to *occupy* the river in question to prevent rebuilding the naval infrastructure' works on?
(Also while it seems to have decreased over the last few pages especially with boney calling out the worst of it, can we *not* engage in protagonist centered morality by proclaiming that Marienburg would 'deserve' being destroyed if it dared to object to *checks note* 'being told it doesn't actually have sovereignty over its national waters, and it has to let our ships through the river flowing through the middle of their city because the dwarves have bigger guns than them?'...)
The soft power it would cost them to secure alternate sources for goods the Empire needs, and secure safe passage for those goods from wherever they are to the Empire.
Shinji117
Endless Troller
- Location
- Rokkenjima (Sydney)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, the Empire tried once before. They got owned by the HE Mages, but that still means they got a land army to Marienburg in order to be owned.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
To be fair that was when the most advanced human weapon was the new fangled torsion catapult.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Okay, under that definition it's a blockade, it's also entirely legal for a sovereign nation to stop ships from travelling through their waters.
Generally when you talk about a blockade you're talking about stopping a foreign port from being able to receive ocean traffic of their own nation. Not a foreign nation refusing to allow others to make use of their port.
... the difference in my eyes is that in one case we are only involving a very limited number of dwarven forces from a single hold already involved in the affair with their own interest and the other calls for a massive mobilization of a significant portion of the dwarven realm to conduct a massive and lengthy military campaign at least partly motivated by racism and other cultural baggage on part of the dwarves (engineered by us...).
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
I'm sure others have commented on it, but just from skimming the thread to catch up i saw some talk of breaking a blockade being 'weeks as opposed to years', and i'm kind of confused as to how thats the timescale some people think 'rallying for, travelling to, and engaging in a major naval offensive followed by the likely need to *occupy* the river in question to prevent rebuilding the naval infrastructure' works on?
(Also while it seems to have decreased over the last few pages especially with boney calling out the worst of it, can we *not* engage in protagonist centered morality by proclaiming that Marienburg would 'deserve' being destroyed if it dared to object to *checks note* 'being told it doesn't actually have sovereignty over its national waters, and it has to let our ships through the river flowing through the middle of their city because the dwarves have bigger guns than them?'...)
The resources needed to cocupy the river are far lesser than what you would need to carve alternative paths over and Empire the size of all central Europe.
I have to admit, part of the reason that I like the gunboat diplomacy option is that we are talking to a bismarck Expy.
waving your navy dick around through blockades and counter blockades were kind of the thing at the time. (even if Bismarck himself was uninterested in competing with great Britain so kept the navy small.)
waving your navy dick around through blockades and counter blockades were kind of the thing at the time. (even if Bismarck himself was uninterested in competing with great Britain so kept the navy small.)
Hm, the issue here is that the empire is actually fairly weak right now correct, so it is less able to handle a hit.
I wonder if there is a way for the dwarfs to increase the pace on the canal.
A thought, imagine using the flying dreadnought to approach Marienburg from the sea, fly over and then land on the other side of the city, conduct some trade with the empire and leave the same way. I imagine this would be a fairly interesting image for the traders. I am not saying this is a good idea
Also, I feel the canal is a bit more important trade wise, it helps connect Karak Norn, Karak Hirn and any other holds connected to the empire with Barak Var. They might need more canals to make it work but it might well strengthen the connection between holds, allowing trade and military support.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
Although I wonder if we could ask the dwarfs to delay the canal (or speed it up), so that we can continue from a stronger position
I wonder if there is a way for the dwarfs to increase the pace on the canal.
A thought, imagine using the flying dreadnought to approach Marienburg from the sea, fly over and then land on the other side of the city, conduct some trade with the empire and leave the same way. I imagine this would be a fairly interesting image for the traders. I am not saying this is a good idea
Also, I feel the canal is a bit more important trade wise, it helps connect Karak Norn, Karak Hirn and any other holds connected to the empire with Barak Var. They might need more canals to make it work but it might well strengthen the connection between holds, allowing trade and military support.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
Although I wonder if we could ask the dwarfs to delay the canal (or speed it up), so that we can continue from a stronger position
- Pronouns
- It/They
You do realize that this is asking the dwarves to bankroll the empire for however it takes for the canals to finish right?
Massively depletely dwarven coffers and saddling the empire with a massive fucking debt that they will have to pay or get super grudged?
yeah no, war is preferrable, because this is just asking greenskins and beastmen to roll over everyone.
So basically fuck marienburg, and fuck the elves if they get involved.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
While fair, the Barak Varr navy have to first brave The Black Gulf, Skirt Sartosa, head around Eastalia and Bretonnia, and then head down into Marienburg.
And if they are going to bring a force would make the Ulthuani hesitate, they'd have to bring a full fleet, leaving their regular trade routes wide open.
And it's their right to refuse ships flying the flags of another country to pass through the waters of an independent state.
Unless there's some treaty to allow ships to pass freely (which there isn't, since Marienburg has been stated to have a trade monopoly), any Empire fleet in Marienburg waters makes it an act of war.
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