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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.

[X] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Nope, Magnus the pious is responsible for creating the westerland province and putting the merchants princes of the area in charge, they were made semi independent. No EC only had to give taxes. Deiter fucked up and they declared Independence unanimously afterwards.
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I'll cite Sigmars Heirs, Page 18
This problem led the Unfähiger Emperors to seek other sources of revenue to give them leverage against the other Electors. Emperor Dieter IV carried it too far, however, when he reputedly accepted large bribes from the burgomeisters of Marienburg to acknowledge their city's independence. The scandal of a province breaking away with Imperial connivance was so shocking that an emergency meeting of the Electors was called in the Volkshalle in Altdorf. There in 2429 the Electors deposed Dieter and put in his place Grand Prince Wilhelm of Reikland, the ancestor of the current Emperor.
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Humbaba said:
I think I'm going to take a little break from the thread.

Seeing "the Elves are completely rational actors and not involve themselves when their allies ships and port is burning down around their ears" and "Mariburg must be destroyed for attempting economic sanctions to keep it's dominant position" next to each other is just too much.
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*Elftown is in danger from Empire/Dawi attempts at burning the docks/city down*
*Elves decide to blow up the attacking force to stop the place the live in being destroyed*
Some posters, clinging to the driftwood afterwards: "Why would the High Elves do this?"
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Holy shit, how is there a 30 vote lead for gunboat diplomacy when we're the weak party?

The High elves will absolutely not let this stand, they literally can't. They have defensive treaties with Marienburg.
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Because the "Start a shooting war" vote option doesn't explicitly spell out the disadvantages in the vote itself. Not even kidding. The presentation of the default votes is a huge part of how votes go.
 
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

Thought about it. Tried making sense of the circular arguments going on. Can't.

Ultimately I think it it comes down to: no, they cannot be convinced to stop, because all possibilities of doing so are cowardly. Dwarves don't like that.

Asking them to pay for Empire trade will backfire long term, because they'll just make the money back by charging extortionate tariffs on Canal trade to pay it off - just like Marienburg does, but 100% legally and justifiably, because they built it in the first place and own it completely. If the Empire wants diplomatic cash-favors right now, they'll be paying the Dwarves off for the next couple centuries. Or millennia. Or literally forever.
 
ninjafish said:
You do realize that this is asking the dwarves to bankroll the empire for however it takes for the canals to finish right?

Massively depletely dwarven coffers and saddling the empire with a massive fucking debt that they will have to pay or get super grudged?

yeah no, war is preferrable, because this is just asking greenskins and beastmen to roll over everyone.

So basically fuck marienburg, and fuck the elves if they get involved.
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I think you might need to take a break, this post would be uncomfortably heated even if it wasn't responding unprovoked to someone's vote.

Vebyast said:
Because the "Start a shooting war" vote option doesn't explicitly spell out the disadvantages in the vote itself. Not even kidding. The presentation of the default votes is a huge part of how votes go.
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And this sort of talk isn't great either. You don't have to agree with how others vote, but declaring they do so because they haven't thought it through leads to uncivil places.
 
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Asheram said:
And it's their right to refuse ships flying the flags of another country to pass through the waters of an independent state.
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No it isn't. That's not how things work, and has never been how things work. The sort of economic strangulation that Marianburg is proposing basically always results in war unless the balance of power is ludicrously lopsided in the favor of the country doing the strangling. Like "Cuba vs USA" lopsided.
 
MooseHowl said:
Asking them to pay for Empire trade will backfire long term, because they'll just make the money back by charging extortionate tariffs on Canal trade to pay it off - just like Marienburg does, but 100% legally and justifiably, because they built it in the first place and own it completely.
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Nope. Competition. Once the canal exists, Barak Varr and Marienburg will be competing with each other to supply the empire, and whoever charges higher tariffs will lose. Race to the bottom will ensue. In precisely the same way that Marienburg won't be able to blockade the empire once the canal goes up because the canal exists as an alternate route, Barak Varr won't be able to blockade the Empire because Marienburg exists as an alternate route. And the decreased cost will increase the volume of trade through the whole system so everyone ends up winning. This is precisely why and how capitalism beat mercantilism.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The last time the Empire tried to take back Marienburg they were fielding a ground force with no allies and no magical support against one of the most magical races in the world. This time it would be the Barak Varr navy going through inferior manling ships like, well, a steel axe through wooden planks.
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I woudl like to point out that the game where we get those nice ships from is also one where said ships are very much able to be sunk by any other faction and even in the fluff we have evidence of the same. (In one of the Gotrek and Felix books Barak Varr of all place is blocked in by an Ork Waagh...


SuperSonicSound said:
Nope, Magnus the pious is responsible for creating the westerland province and putting the merchants princes of the area in charge, they were made semi independent. No EC only had to give taxes. Deiter fucked up and they declared Independence unanimously afterwards.
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I think that was the original idea that got retconned down the line.
 
Asheram said:
And if Mathilde had some higher diplomacy then she would realize that and take that option off the table.
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No she wouldn't. As you noted there is no agreement so agressively forcing such an agreement -if they can't just take the city- is well within Empries diplomatic goals. It is what politics is.

There is a reason every similar places IRL has such agreements because nobody wants to leave trade to mercy of others without firm guerantees in place. Infact I imagine such an agreement that ensures Marienburg can't legally close the rivermouth again will be the goal of Empire at the moment and every tool including armies and navies are on the table to achive this. Everybody would do the same.

Marienburg is just being arrogant thinking they are above consuquances of their actions thanks to backing of Elves.
 
MonkeyTypewriter said:
No it isn't. That's not how things work, and has never been how things work. The sort of economic strangulation that Marianburg is proposing basically always results in war unless the balance of power is ludicrously lopsided in the favor of the country doing the strangling. Like "Cuba vs USA" lopsided.
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Your argument rings falsely because this is how things already work in the setting. If ships could freely go past Marienburg then they wouldn't have their current trade monopoly.
 
Guisarme said:
the only honest answer to this question has to be a no at least. I don't think lying to the empire will be good for the empire or Mathilde as she is supposed to be following the articles of magic
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I repeat: both of the two options being seriously debated say "no, the dwarves won't stop building the canal." In neither circumstance do we tell him "the dwarves will totally back down from Marienburg's attempt to stop this," which I agree would be nonsense. The question is whether we are saying "no, they won't stop, and they'll help us out with money until it's done," or "no, they won't stop, and they'll break the blockade for us."
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Holy shit, how is there a 30 vote lead for gunboat diplomacy when we're the weak party?

The High elves will absolutely not let this stand, they literally can't. They have defensive treaties with Marienburg.
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Apparently there's no indication of what if any kind of treaty they have in quest. That said, if they were willing to put it all on the line for every human patsy polity they've had dealings with that decided to get cute, they'd have been bled dry long ago.
 
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We aren't asked what the Empire or the Dawi should do. We are being asked what course of action is more likely to happen within the Karaz Ankor in response to this situation and hence what the Empire's set of choices look like given the situation of the Karaz Ankor. From that perspective, we know that if Marienburg threatens to scuttle the canal project with a blockade, Barak Varr will respond by breaking it. This seems to me to be the most honest response to the situation - by no means are we selecting what will happen, at best we are influencing what would happen.

Whether the Karaz Ankor would compensate the Empire for the wrongs inflicted on the Empire by Marienburg is the one thing I don't think Mathilde could confidently say would happen, and I think that whatever happens, if Marienburg escalates to attempt to block the canal, a grudge from at least Barak Varr is inevitable. If we advise the Chancellor the Dawi will agree to make up for trade loss, I feel that Mathilde cannot be confident enough to make this claim with certainty.
 
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Saying 'Barak Varr Navy would back us up' isn't actually starting the blockade-running and bombardment. Neither of us in the room has the power to mobilise forces.
It's saying that you, Chancellor, can be confident of it and- knowing what you now know about Dawi Kings and their relative independence- even sound out the Barak Varr King directly about such a pact. Then you can use that in your brinkmanship diplomacy with Marienburg, and if it gets that far, rely on a Barak Varr navy standing off while you demand the blockade be taken down.

Or, we can advise that you, Chancellor, can petition the High King for economic redress for the harm being done to the Imperial economy for the actions of your vassal Barak Varr digging a canal.
 
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MonkeyTypewriter said:
No it isn't. That's not how things work, and has never been how things work. The sort of economic strangulation that Marianburg is proposing basically always results in war unless the balance of power is ludicrously lopsided in the favor of the country doing the strangling. Like "Cuba vs USA" lopsided.
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I mean, that's where Ulthuan comes into play. Marienburg would probably still be an Imperial province, if they didn't have at least some military backing from the closest thing to a global superpower.
 
Diplomacy Advisor: What are my options for diplomacy?

Mathilde: War! :V

I'm out. The thread's moving faster than I've ever seen it and it'll keep doing so for probably the next few days. People's arguments that the blockade will somehow be magically bloodless is pissing me off too much to be worth keeping up with.
Adhoc vote count started by Derpmind on Jul 8, 2020 at 7:15 PM, finished with 675 posts and 121 votes.
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Andmeuths said:
Whether the Karaz Ankor would compensate the Empire for the wrongs inflicted on the Empire by Marienburg is the one thing I don't think Mathilde could confidently say would happen
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Yeah, that's not really something I want Mathilde's name associated with. This kind of welfare seems much more likely to rankle Dwarven sensibilities than actually working to resolve the problem, even assuming they both cost the same amount.
 
Derpmind said:
I've seen a bunch of posts like this, essentially advocating war for war's sake. Does the thread have a Khorne voting block? :V


Marienburg knows Barak Var is doing this. They may not just expect the Dwarves to show up for diplomacy, they might be counting on it. What they won't expect is for us to ignore them. Let them throw a fit in their corner while the canals are being built, and once they realize they're loosing more money by blockading than they will by re-opening trade, they'll stop. At the worst, we still have K8P's infinite2​ money, and Marienburg can either open up for trade again, or suck it for 5 years and loose their stangelhold anyways.

Seriously, though, everyone. We're talking to the diplo expert. He wants to hear that a diplomatic solution is possible, not us suggesting we should escalate into warfare. And unless [] They can make up for the loss in trade is a lie, it's the answer he most wants to hear (and that he can make the most use of.)
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My LETTSS GOO is mostly a shitpost. I'm voting on what I think that our MC would think what the dwarves would do.
 
Tasoli said:
Marienburg is just being arrogant thinking they are above consuquances of their actions thanks to backing of Elves.
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Yes, they are ridiculously arrogant. But the fact is that they do have the backing of the elves, and there is an enclave in the city that, by word of GM and Canon, belongs to Ulthuan. If Marienburg takes the breaking of the blockade as an act of war then suddenly there's a war going on, not thousands of miles, but perhaps 10 or so away from recognized Ulthuan borders.
 
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