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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] No, but they could help break the blockade


Ulthuan was noted to be especially noncommittal on this issue - them being willing to stick their noses into a gunboat diplomacy issue and escalate to War of the Bead Mk2 levels is unlikely at best, so the idea that that kind of thing will happen when they're already trying to distance themselves is pretty ludicrous.
 
DragonParadox said:
Marianburg wins in that both the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are weakened. If some crises (of which there are many posibiities because this is warhhammer) should show up in the intern, they would then be able to force terms and an abandoning on the canal on the weakened empire
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How is that not also true if a crisis shows up while Barak Varr's navy is committed to safeguarding Imperial trade?
 
primemountain said:
hmmm. @BoneyM How much is some kind of subterfuge possible here? Skull river flows from Black Water lake at Zulfbar to Barak Varr. Since Mat has not checked in on the canal project, I'm guessing she doesn't know how the work is separated. Would it be possible to convince the dwarves to delay the Empire specific part of the canal, the Zulfbar to Aver Reach part, while letting them push on for the locks and infrastructure they need to connect Barak Varr to Black Water?
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Barak Varr and Zhufbar are already connected by the Skull River. Black Water to Aver is the entire project.
 
picklepikkl said:
(And my view is that the Karaz Ankor has a lot of coins sitting in vaults doing nothing half as useful as "massive monetary stimulus of the Empire's economy" would be.)
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Your post is fair re. appeasement, but I also think that talks of economic stimulus are overblown. The option is spelled out as weakening both the Karaz Ankor and Empire, not 'strengthening it at the expense of treasure the Dawi aren't using anyway'.
 
DragonParadox said:
Except that kick may send the Empire to its knees of there is some other threat coming and then they do win.
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Then everybody dies. That's not winning.
Thomasfoolery said:
Give some actual supporting reasoning for why the elves are going to commit national suicide to prop up some human patsies that are dragging them into a conflict they're not interested in. Rather than instead doing something like telling them they're not going to be dying for preserving that extra 40% profit margin, so you guys better make a deal before we make that explicit to the empire and leave you to the wolves.
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There is literally Ulthuan sovereign territory within Marienburg. You think they wouldn't go to war over the Karaz Ankor threatening it with cannonballs?
 
chocolote12 said:
There is literally Ulthuan sovereign territory within Marienburg. You think they wouldn't go to war over the Karaz Ankor threatening it with cannonballs?
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No I don't, because the Dwarf's aren't interested in destroying what they've got there. They have no need to torch the city. Destroying the Marienburg fleet and basing is more than enough to remove any potential blockade of trade. Why would they start hitting the elf's stuff for no reason?
 
picklepikkl said:
In contrast, any of the options where the canal actually gets built sink the knife into that economic dominance, because once the canal is done, their monopoly is broken. "Making up for the loss" isn't bowing your head to Marienburg and giving in, it's taking your ball and going home. "Fuck right off; we don't need you, and in five years we really won't need you."

Now, you might still decide that breaking the blockade is a better solution. That's valid. But I want to correct the misunderstanding that the Karaz Ankor giving economic aid to the Empire is a situation where Marienburg somehow wins. As long as the canal gets built, Marienburg's influence is dramatically quashed. The question is whether we deny them their influence through force of arms or through force of coin.

(And my view is that the Karaz Ankor has a lot of coins sitting in vaults doing nothing half as useful as "massive monetary stimulus of the Empire's economy" would be.)
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Whilst I do agree with you on how just completing the canal will drastically curb Marienburg's influence the Karaz Ankor can't just open its vaults and inject gold into the Imperial economy - that'll just create a lot of inflation and solve little.

What's the really important and costly part of the dwarf stimulus is:

BoneyM said:
arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
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This will drain resources and will signal weakness on the part of the Empire. Yes, in the long run that's still a win - but I'm really not sure if consistently projecting weakness is good.
 
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
 
Alliterate said:
Your post is fair re. appeasement, but I also think that talks of economic stimulus are overblown. The option is spelled out as weakening both the Karaz Ankor and Empire, not 'strengthening it at the expense of treasure the Dawi aren't using anyway'.
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Oh, I agree. It's a monetary stimulus to make up for a fiscal depression. I'm certainly not trying to argue that Boney is lying in the option; it will definitely cause pain for everyone involved. I just don't think the degree of hurt on the Empire's part is massive.
BoneyM said:
It's not just pure wealth, but also the influence that would have to be expended to route needed supplies through overland routes. Barak Varr and Zhufbar are likely to take on the brunt of it as it's largely their project, and they'd be significantly weakened by it, and the Empire will still be weaker than the status quo for it.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
the blockage action isn't attacking Marienburg, it is attacking the blockage if Marienburg tries
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It is explicitly attacking Marienburg's infrastructure:
BoneyM said:
Breaking the blockade would most likely involve destroying their navy and the infrastructure that allows Marienburg to block the river, and probably anchoring a Dreadnought or five off the coast in case they get any funny ideas about rebuilding.
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Vebyast said:
I, uh. I'd have said that the economic route is the one more likely to bring Marienburg back into the Empire, not the one where we go to war with them.
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The winning move, from a Ranaldite point of view, is if Marienburg folds before we ever actually play that card.

No actual military action has taken place yet - this is still something happening in the realm of diplomats and polite threats. Marienburg is threatening to blockade the Empire if the Empire doesn't stop building the canals, with the implicit threat being that the Elves will help them if the Empire tries to recapture the river by force.

I'm suggesting that the Empire pull their own bluff, namely that Marienburg isn't the only polity with backing from an Elder Race, and that if Marienburg wants to try to put pressure on the dwarves, they can expect said dwarves to be very unhappy.

We're not talking to the Reiksmarshal about military strategy, we're talking to the Chamberlain of the Seal about diplomacy. In an ideal scenario, no actual conflict will happen, or at most a Barak Varr Dreadnought will lurk in the area menacingly for a while as a reminder not to get too clever.
 
Asheram said:
Whatever we do means that Barak Varr and the rest of the Dawi will declare a grudge against Marienburg. They may stew on it if we ask them to, but there's 0% chance that they won't grudge them
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Let marienburg get grudged, we can burn it and build a new city on the ashes.

A city of Human-Dwarf Bromance.
 
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