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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ninjafish said:
Alright so... change of subject.

Mathilde X Sweet Sciency magic is the OTP.

Come at me shippers.
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I don't think you can date a concept such as "Sciency Magic". But if it's that important to you then Johann is probably your best bet. Dude's researching Skaven tech, which is absolutely kinda sorta "Sciency magic". Plus he's from an order that swallows molten gold to become more powerful. You know he'd be down for some sweet magical mad science experiments.
 
ninjafish said:
I mean... vampires are a further step in human evolution.
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Vampires are an utter failure. The vast majority of them end up with some debilitating madness that leads to them at best being a monster of the week and spending 99% of their time dead and sealed or some iralvent hermit fucking around in a tower somewhere accomplishing fuckall until someone notices and burns them out.

Humans in warhammer are the only reasonably sane cooperative species with a birth rate that makes surviving long term attrition even vaguely feasible. Humans suck, humanity is a contender, almost entirely based on mental flexibility, rationality and birthrate. They are both able to work together well enough, and able to be pragmatic bastards when needed. That rationality, when combined with numbers to absorb losses, means they are growing. Both in numbers and infrastructure. No other uncorrupted power can say that the orgers at best might increase their unity but that will go to shit the moment their present chieftain dies, humans along have Institutional reasons for growing without having to whore out their souls to the dark gods.

Vampirism? you have a 99% chance of giving that up. You lose that sanity, that ability to corporate and be pragmatic and in exchange for what? strength? immortality? congratulations, you're a shitty demon knockoff that's traded needing to be summoned for defeat meaning you spend the next thousand years at the bottom of a deep-sea trench, and the risk of devolving into a Vargheist if you get trapped somewhere.

the elder races are strong but fading, vampires are stagnant at best, and humanity is rising. Vampires are a mistake. A flawed byproduct of an inhuman things search for immortality. Vamprisim gives up the major advantages mankind has in a futile attempt to match the monsters of the world on their own playing field, but if mad monster where the answer the human nations would have crumbled a long long time ago.
 
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random_npc said:
Vampires are an utter failure. The vast majority of them end up with some debilitating madness that leads to them at best being a monster of the week and spending 99% of their time dead and sealed or some iralvent hermit fucking around in a tower somewhere accomplishing fuckall until someone notices and burns them out.
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To be fair they were in beta testing and the samples were sabotaged...leaving only the functional but imperfect beta when the project was abandoned
 
Humans themselves probably were a crazy project by some completely insane Old One grumbling about how the others just don't understand his mad science of turning the weapons of the enemy against themselves.

'Preventing mutation? Preventing magic or highly educated ascetics living forever to tame the winds, a fungoid antibody species with a common self-contained resource? Bah, i want all in, divinely and magical empowered (aka mutated) species numerous enough and imaginative enough to create gods to protect itself at the drop of a hat is a go!'

A predictable SNAFU when you're a insane creator (better than a) god fighting against hell.
 
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veekie said:
To be fair they were in beta testing and the samples were sabotaged...leaving only the functional but imperfect beta when the project was abandoned
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Considering they were made by NAGASH, its almost certain that he never intended to release the final product and keep it for his own personal use. And celbrate finishing it by killing every other life form on the planet.
 
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A Crowning Glory
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    • HanEmpire said:
    @BoneyM how many of the Black Crag orcs are we expecting to come? If we manage to wipe out a decent portion of them using the Tower, could Thorgrim's forces feasibly retake Karak Drazh as well?
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    They're still pushing at the Karagril Underway, so at least some remain. But Karak Drazh is going to be pretty significantly weakened if none or few of them return.

    Ganurath said:
    Wait a minute...

    Has anyone asked @BoneyM if Qrech's dietary needs have been within the expected consumption rate for Skaven now that he's out of... the typical Skaven environment?
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    He likes to snack fairly regularly, but he's eating less overall than he did at first, even accounting for Skufit.

    Guile said:
    My main problem with our growth is that we get all our best traits and stat boosts from war turns that happen over a couple of weeks, it makes the 6 month turns feel slow and a little anemic in comparison.
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    Wars tend to be a capstone on a lot of preparation done in those six month turns, and the nature of Sylvania and Karak Eight Peaks mean that both are going to culminate in a lot of fighting.

    Nix's Warden said:
    Question @BoneyM since people spent a fair few pages on it earlier, will the conclusion of this war turn, whatever that conclusion winds up being, result in us getting a chance to pick a trait? Or is that not possible due to this being a lightning campaign?
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    Still undecided. If it turns out looking like the full and complete reclamation isn't that far off, I might leave it for that so Mathilde can get her shiny new perk just as Belegar sockets his eighth sapphire.

     
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    • Glau said:
    Nah. There is no mutuality there, no way both parties would commit to sharing a thing, and the sharing is where the cuteness comes in. That and cuddles. Science-chan is much more like a frosty aloof maiden who never actual care about you, who you can spend an entire life pursuing and not get more than a handful of petty secrets.

    Choose warm blood and wrapped up closeness!

    Now, if you would have argued for wolf instead, I'd have a much harder time insisting on a human, preferably *cough*Johann*cough*.
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    I read sweet sciencey magic and immediately thought first wizard so...
     
    veekie said:
    To be fair they were in beta testing and the samples were sabotaged...leaving only the functional but imperfect beta when the project was abandoned
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    True. the core concept behind them might be workable if the resarch was recovered. But the odds of a dhar based transformation not fucking with the rationality of all but the most willful is slim. The warp works at least somewhat on story logic, and the story logic of dhar is that it fucks up everything. I'm not willing to bet the ability to make ration decisions on exactly how much that story comes into play when you have what should be sufficient protection.
     
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    random_npc said:
    Vampires are an utter failure. The vast majority of them end up with some debilitating madness that leads to them at best being a monster of the week and spending 99% of their time dead and sealed or some iralvent hermit fucking around in a tower somewhere accomplishing fuckall until someone notices and burns them out.

    Humans in warhammer have exactly 1 major advantage, they are the only reasonably sane cooperative species with a birth rate that makes surviving long term attrition even vaguely feasible. Humans suck, humanity is a contender, almost entirely based on mental flexibility and birthrate. They are both able to work together well enough, and able to be pragmatic bastards when needed.

    Vampirism? you have a 99% chance of giving that up. You lose that sanity, that ability to corporate and be pragmatic and in exchange for what? strength? immortality? congratulations, you're a shitty demon knockoff that's traded needing to be summoned for defeat meaning you spend the next thousand years at the bottom of a deep-sea trench.

    the elder races are strong but fading, vampires are stagnant at best, and humanity is rising. Vampires are a mistake. A flawed byproduct of an inhuman things search for immortality. Vamprisim gives up the major advantages mankind has in a futile attempt to match the monsters of the world on their own playing field, but if mad monster where the answer the human nations would have crumbled a long long time ago.
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    I wouldn't really call humanity rising so much as ust managing to not be actively sinking like the other order races.

    And thats basically by just throwing more bodies into the meat grinder that is the forces of destruction.

    They just kinda suck really.

    Besides both Greenskins and skaven have humanity beat for numbers, so they dont really have advantage... and greenskins are physicall stronger, and skaven are better with both tech and magic as well.

    Humans are basically the result of bootleg dwarves and elves doing the fusion dance, with all good stuff removed or heavily weakened.

    To the point where i seriously question why the fuck the old ones even kept humans around in thier current state.

    My only answer is that Warhammer humans were intended as nothing more than meat shields for the less rapidly breeding elder races.

    Or maybe im jusgt being overly negative? who knows?! :V
     
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    Neshuakadal said:
    In this example then theugry is finding a route around the horn of Africa to India. We know the approximate end result and we are discovering a new way to get there.

    You want us to spend effort on something where the only known example of using the tech is nercomancy. That doesn't fill me with confidence that the brand new lore you hope to be lurking in America won't be an abomination like nercomancy.
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    I mean... we have no idea how to accomplish theurgy.

    We have a pie-in-the-sky end goal, and maybe studying the Coin would help somehow. That's not a super reliable method either.
    OmegaS said:
    At this point, you are deliberately misinterpreting the actual lore for the sake of pushing what is not just a minority agenda, but one that is completely opposed to everything the rest of the player base wants. You are an outright troll, and have gone beyond mere disruption to outright sabotage.

    Why haven't you been thread banned yet?
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    Because it's not actually illegal to have an unpopular opinion?
    OmegaS said:
    You advocate for Dhar. You are a troll.
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    Dhar is a legitimate, if dangerous, route to Real Ultimate Power.

    Not dangerous to us, even; the Belt of the Unshackled Mountain is Kragg putting his thumb on the scales and going 'Yeah, that thing where everyone who uses Dhar goes insane? Hold my ale.' It's dangerous to the land around us, and perhaps to people nearby. Luckily, there's a place called the badlands nearby that no one gives a crap about.

    I mean, people want to mess around with daemon blood too, and nobody argues 'but it explodes and almost kills us!' like a wimp.
     
    Guile said:
    I mean... we have no idea how to accomplish theurgy.

    We have a pie-in-the-sky end goal, and maybe studying the Coin would help somehow. That's not a super reliable method either.

    Because it's not actually illegal to have an unpopular opinion?

    Dhar is a legitimate, if dangerous, route to Real Ultimate Power.

    Not dangerous to us, even; the Belt of the Unshackled Mountain is Kragg putting his thumb on the scales and going 'Yeah, that thing where everyone who uses Dhar goes insane? Hold my ale.' It's dangerous to the land around us, and perhaps to people nearby. Luckily, there's a place called the badlands nearby that no one gives a crap about.

    I mean, people want to mess around with daemon blood too, and nobody argues 'but it explodes and almost kills us!' like a wimp.
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    You know de way, my brother in arms!

    My comrade!
     
    BoneyM said:
    He likes to snack fairly regularly, but he's eating less overall than he did at first, even accounting for Skufit.
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    Hm. Theory: The Black Hunger is stress-related, and is therefore endemic to skaven "backstab as a greeting" society.
    Stress = adrenaline = heightened metabolism = Black Hunger.
    Qrech is fairly safe and in a stable social position. We both know where we stand, and his position as a prisoner prevents him from wanting to jockey for status.
    weirdly, it would seem Qrech has achieved One Is Freedom
     
    SCO said:
    Humans themselves probably were a crazy project by some completely insane Old One grumbling about how the others just don't understand his mad science of turning the weapons of the enemy against themselves.

    'Preventing mutation? Preventing magic or highly educated ascetics living forever to tame the winds, a fungoid antibody species with a common self-contained resource? Bah, i want all in, divinely and magical empowered species numerous enough and imaginative enough to create gods at the drop of a hat is a go!'

    A predictable SNAFU when you're a insane creator (better than a) god fighting against hell.
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    Not quite. They were at most half finished when the Warp Gates broke. But you can see hints of what they could have been like in things like Elspeth.
     
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    ninjafish said:
    I wouldn't really call humanity rising so much as ust managing to not be actively sinking like the other order races.

    And thats basically by just throwing more bodies into the meat grinder that is the forces of destruction.

    They just kinda suck really.

    Besides both Greenskins and skaven have humanity beat for numbers, so they dont really have advantage... and greenskins are physicall stronger, and skaven are better with both tech and magic as well.

    Humans are basically the result of bootleg dwarves and elves doing the fusion dance, with all good stuff removed or heavily weakened.

    To the point where i seriously question why the fuck the old ones even kept humans around in thier current state.

    My only answer is that Warhammer humans were intended as nothing more than meat shields for the less rapidly breeding elder races.

    One way or another they'll either change, or they'll die.
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    Numbers mean jack and shit, and jack left town if you can't work together. yeah, there are more orks and skaven than humans, but there are more united humans than united orks or Skaven. Numbers without unity just means you spend more time killing your own kind. To be clear, this is less about humans being super unified, and more about orks and skaven being absolute shite at it.

    as for "not sinking" the empire a thousand years ago was far weaker, five hundred years ago it was weaker, fifty years ago it was weaker. The empire is getting stronger, its slow, but they are developing new technologies and their core is building up their infrastructure because their big central cites almost never get hit. Humans are going to change or die yea, but its not going to be changing their race its going to be changing the society. Every new technology is a little more breathing room to build, every new gun factory is a little more time to tinker with technology, every new battle spell is another addition to their magical lore. Social progress starts slow, like an avalanche. But sooner or later, mankind will hit the industrial revolution, and a few decades after that they will be the dominant power on malus.
     
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    random_npc said:
    Numbers mean jack and shit, and jack left town if you can't work together. yeah, there are more orks and skaven than humans, but there are more united humans than united orks or Skaven. Numbers without unity just means you spend more time killing your own kind. To be clear, this is less about humans being super unified, and more about orks and skaven being absolute shite at it.

    as for "not sinking" the empire a thousand years ago was far weaker, five hundred years ago it was weaker, fifty years ago it was weaker. The empire is getting stronger, its slow, but they are developing new technologies and their core is building up their infrastructure because their big central cites almost never get hit. Humans are going to change or die yea, but its not going to be changing their race its going to be changing the society. Every new technology is a little more breathing room to build, every new gun factory is a little more time to tinker with technology, every new battle spell is another addition to their magical lore. Social progress starts slow, like an avalanche. But sooner or later, mankind will hit the industrial revolution, and a few decades after that they will be the dominant power on malus.
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    Eh, maybe... although i kinda doubt they can hit the industrial revolution, no fossil fuels, and things like railroads are impossible with greenskins and beast men to fuck them up.

    There machinery will never be as good as the dwarfs, their magic never as good as the elves.

    Those two races failed, so why would humanity succeed where they couldn't when they have nothing that the other two did not?
     
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    ninjafish said:
    I wouldn't really call humanity rising so much as ust managing to not be actively sinking like the other order races.

    And thats basically by just throwing more bodies into the meat grinder that is the forces of destruction.

    They just kinda suck really.

    Besides both Greenskins and skaven have humanity beat for numbers, so they dont really have advantage... and greenskins are physicall stronger, and skaven are better with both tech and magic as well.

    Humans are basically the result of bootleg dwarves and elves doing the fusion dance, with all good stuff removed or heavily weakened.

    To the point where i seriously question why the fuck the old ones even kept humans around in thier current state.

    My only answer is that Warhammer humans were intended as nothing more than meat shields for the less rapidly breeding elder races.

    One way or another they'll either change, or they'll die.
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    Yet, we humans backstab each other a lot, LOT less than skaven.

    The power of Humanity as a whole is that we are in many ways blessed with a bunch of small advantages and few negatives.

    Humans are not quite as good in tech as skaven, but we are more willing to pass the discoveries to others.

    The Skaven and Greenskins have more numbers, but we are much more willing to work with each other than the first while have longer lifespans and are able to actually advance technologically far more than what the second is limited to.

    We are supposingly "incomplete", but our big advantage really is our lack of dissadvatages and a high, if not the highest, birth rate more than anything else.
     
    vsh said:
    I think humans are way better with magic, no? Skaven only have seers and Eshin sorcerers, and that's it.
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    Humans have a wider variety of options, but they're limited to specific traditions that the Great Cataclysm showed to be lacking a permanent solution to the whole "Chaos Gate" problem. Skaven have the edge when it comes to magical innovation, making up for the numerical lack of practitioners through the techno-sorcery of Clan Skryre.

    [crackpot]Thus was Tzeentch's design when he sent his champion to unite a vast human empire in opposition to magic, so that those that might attain the power to restrain his influence would be driven into his embrace instead.[/crackpot]
     
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