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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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picklepikkl said:
Using a single, pure wind to manipulate a mixture of the winds is substantively different from using a single, pure wind to manipulate a different pure wind without letting them mix at any point.

Like, if it were that easy, someone else would have done it already. We cannot be the first wizard to have thought of this. We have a few unfair advantages (Windsage, reading the Liber Mortis), but I am still skeptical that it is possible; it seems like if it were a thing that can be done, someone else would have done it, and we have not gotten any seeded plot hooks to go after this. It is purely a brainstorm of the thread.

Using arcane energies to manipulate divine energies, on the other hand, is something that not just any wizard off the street can do (it requires 1. a deep connection with a god, which most wizards lack 2. a god that is okay with this sort of tomfoolery, which most gods are not). I have a much easier time believing that between Windsage, Avatar, and Ranald being more open than other Order gods to being experimented with, we will be able to develop something cool and unique, and the fact that we've had several dangling plot hooks specifically aimed at investigating this phenomenon indicates that Boney has something planned for us heading down this track, whether that be "theurgy" or something else.

High magic is not "using winds to manipulate other winds." High magic is "one spellcaster manipulating multiple winds directly without them combining in the caster's soul and becoming Dhar." That, again, is very different from the "tongs" project.
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High magic is still multiple winds interacting without turning into dhar.

Besides we have unfair advantages that actually allow to experiment with this without dying or going insane due to the belt, which is probably the big reason no one gets very far with this sort of thing, they die or go mad due to dhar exposure before making any progress.

We don't have that problem, so we can experiment until we get past the the first stumbling blocks.
 
Look, it's a bad idea, because everyone else who did it ended up dead or crazy. If you can't understand that, you are a troll. Regardless, I'm done arguing about this.
 
ninjafish said:
Theurgy is the sort of thing that a god grants you the ability to do.

If the gods of the empire wanted theurgy it would be a thing already.
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Consider the following; nobody had a clue that the MMAPP was a thing they might have wanted until we invented it. As a Polyseverric spell, anybody with the capacity for magic can cast it, including priests. That means that some Sigmarite battle priest could see wizards styling all over him in the command tent, then do some studying about the general idea of it and reach out to Sigmar for a miracle, and Sigmar would be like 'This thing? Okay', and then there'd be a Sigmarite command hologram floating around.

The priest didn't know that command holograms were a thing before that. Sigmar didn't know that they were a thing before that, unless a wizard told him (some wizards are devout in that direction). But Sigmar could and would definitely still offer the option if people expressed an interest in it, because it's useful and he'd like the idea.

With wizards only institutionalized for the last three centuries or so, there probably just haven't been any opportunities for many things that will be obvious in hindsight to occur yet.
 
BoneyM said:
Dwarves don't blitzkrieg but they don't bide their time either. If there's an enemy nearby, they attack it if they are able, and continue doing so until either the enemy is dead or they're no longer able. Otherwise, they fortify. They don't let years pass waiting for the ideal circumstances to launch an attack.
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veekie said:
They don't have a middle gear essentially. Its either Full Steam Ahead or nothing.
Heck, for all that we've been strategically considering Kvinn-Wyr as a terrain barrier for the past few years, its been noted in the narrative that theres a Slayer trickle constantly taking a swing at them despite it not being to anyone's benefit.

It really really fits the tactics of desperate refugees, much more than a proud warrior race. They can either attack and move with relentless pressure and morale until the other side gives up, or they don't move at all.

It also shows just why they're having so much trouble strategically. This sort of tactic works for survival purposes when you're cornered, but while excellent at motivating a cornered population to keep fighting another day, its really kind of useless for getting out of the corner.
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So when Dwarfs commit, they go full steam ahead. ... And they're also bad at withdrawing or calling it off. Because stubbornness. (For example, I've been wondering whether one reason that Belegar wouldn't want to give up his way or bail out of K8P -- I mean, besides all the other reasons he wouldn't do that -- is because... because he said to Thorgrim that "I think I have a better idea how to do things!" And so he's got to remain, and keep plugging away at, Karak Eight Peaks because, well, because otherwise he'd have to admit he was wrong. And yet, he's still doubting. Life's rough. I think at the end of things, I hope that Belegar can be realistic and accurate/honest about this, about how things went, if only for review purposes -- "Okay, that... worked. But only because a lot of things went right, and we ended up picking the right strategies and tactics. Like. If I'd picked a different human other than Mathilde as an advisor, I wouldn't be in this situation. You can't just plug in any human idea and strategy and assume success. And hell, even Mathilde is letting on that she saw far more fortune and lack-of-disaster that helped smooth things along."
Bottom line was? Belegar gambled. On Mathilde. On following strange tactics and strategies. It just so happened that... his gamble worked out. But the thing is, you've gotta be aware that not every gamble would have worked out. And, furthermore, even the gamble that did work out... was still a close thing, as even Mathilde -- smug Grey Wizard that she is -- would admit.)

... I wonder how Dwarfs are at hunting?

It needs patience to stalk the animal, to seek out the right moment, to not spook the animal, and so on. Or... so I imagine, anyway. It's not like I know anything about hunting. That I haven't picked up from pop culture (read in books or fanfiction), anyway.

But nevertheless. That same sort of general idea. It should be applicable and useful, right?

I'm thinking about getting Dwarfs to take up hunting. As an activity to master, so as to give them practice with the sort of thinking for that.
 
So, given that gyrocopters could arrive at the Karak all the way from Karaz A Karak before the Waaagh does, do we have a timeline for Belegar's return?
 
Abhorsen said:
Look, it's a bad idea, because everyone else who did it ended up dead or crazy. If you can't understand that, you are a troll. Regardless, I'm done arguing about this.
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Except we are immune to the reasons that happened.

People who studied radioactivity and chemistry also died a lot before they figured out the proper safety procedures and how to do things.

If they had stopped just because a couple of people died horribly due to radiation poisoning or in fluorine compound induced fires, modern society would look vastly different than it does.

Fear is weakness! Fear is stagnation, Let us boldy where the meek and the fearful dare not tread!
 
ninjafish said:
High magic is still multiple winds interacting without turning into dhar.
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The fact that practicing High Magic involves needing to master all eight winds implies that there is something special about all eight together, in exactly equal quantities, that prevents Dhar from forming.
Angelform said:
1) Do the colleges of magic have any info on the possibility of having eight wizards combine their spells to collectively cast high magic?
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BoneyM said:
It's considered theoretically possible, but it's theorized you would need eight people channelling exactly equal amounts of their Wind, and all eight would need to be mentally compatible with the other seven.
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There is absolutely zero indication that you can touch one wind with one other wind and get something that isn't Dhar. If I am mistaken, I invite you to provide relevant citations. It's true that our belt lets us experiment with this safely, but that doesn't mean that the experiment will yield anything.
 
picklepikkl said:
Using a single, pure wind to manipulate a mixture of the winds is substantively different from using a single, pure wind to manipulate a different pure wind without letting them mix at any point.

Like, if it were that easy, someone else would have done it already. We cannot be the first wizard to have thought of this. We have a few unfair advantages (Windsage, reading the Liber Mortis), but I am still skeptical that it is possible; it seems like if it were a thing that can be done, someone else would have done it, and we have not gotten any seeded plot hooks to go after this. It is purely a brainstorm of the thread.
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I believe the issue is that:
-Elves and Slaan just plain don't need the Tongs method, direct control is more effective if you can channel multiple winds simultaneously.

-Such an endeavor necessarily requires trial and error. As error produces environmental Dhar, and humans are particularly vulnerable to environmental Dhar exposure, humans cannot normally safely experiment without some kind of extraordinary advantage:
--Nagash was a genius and had Nehekaharan theurgic traditions to support the experiments until he found out what works. I assume his gods soaked the miscasts for him until his sudden but inevitable betrayals.
--Frederick Van Hal was a genius and had secret Morrite lore to help him aim, as well as working off Nagash's research so he didn't have to risk the Dhar creating bits.
--Vampires presumably could try to Tongs safely if they wanted, but if they found anything they either aren't sharing or their Dhar vortex nature complicates it.

So...my conclusion is probably figure out SOME theurgy first.
We got the Belt as the first safety line, the Oh Shit room for a second safety line, but if you want to make like Nagash and invent a whole new discipline of magic you probably want divine backing first, even he had it.
 
picklepikkl said:
The fact that practicing High Magic involves needing to master all eight winds implies that there is something special about all eight together, in exactly equal quantities, that prevents Dhar from forming.
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Well, it's theorized. Given that the colleges haven't actually managed it yet, I'd take college-based speculation with eight equally sized and complementary grains of salt.
Neshuakadal said:
High magic is like cake. If you try to make a cake with only two ingredients you get a disaster.
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Or an ice cream cake. Either or.
 
Abhorsen said:
If he's on blood river, isn't he closer than Karaz-a-Karak?
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We don't know exactly where he is, which is why it's unlikely the copter will find him and retrieve him in time; the messenger we sent will probably have to retrace his steps somewhat and follow all the places he went to one by one, asking each one where Belegar went next.
BoneyM said:
King Belegar is off dealing with some hilariously misguided Border Princes who decided to take up piracy
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BoneyM said:
No, there's a lot of different rivers and a lot of theories as to who was sheltering them.
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Mopman43 said:
About 180 years, and I believe for 15-30 of those years, the Colleges were actually disbanded.
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2415 to 2430, reinstituted exactly one year after Dieter was removed. Oddly enough, in 2420 the Elementalists got their charter. Probably Dieter trying to get mages to throw at Grom without pissing off his buddies in the Church of Sigmar who'd pushing for the Colleges to be shut down after the Night of One Thousand Arcane Duels in the first place. No statement on whether or not the school in Hochland was subject to the shutdown, at least that I've found.
 
picklepikkl said:
The fact that practicing High Magic involves needing to master all eight winds implies that there is something special about all eight together, in exactly equal quantities, that prevents Dhar from forming.


There is absolutely zero indication that you can touch one wind with one other wind and get something that isn't Dhar. If I am mistaken, I invite you to provide relevant citations. It's true that our belt lets us experiment with this safely, but that doesn't mean that the experiment will yield anything.
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Shyish doesn't turn into dhar when interacting with dhar in necromancy,

Dhar is just a bunch of other winds mixed together, the shyish should just be added to the pile and create more dhar, and yet it doesn't.

Heck this happens when you add dhar to the proto wind substance that is the aetheric vitae.

but adding one wind just causes a split into all eight that then rapidly move towards the nearest compatible area.

All eight winds exist briefly in one place, and yet they don't turn into dhar.

Dhar can turn winds into more dhar, In necromancy shyish is used to manipulate dhar without being transformed into dhar itself.

All together This implies a mechanism that can be used to keep the winds from collapsing into dhar to begin with.
 
Valarauko said:
For me, at least, it's a question of too much return for too little investment. I'd be fine with accomplishing something major and permanent, but it needs to be something we work at diligently for a very long time.

For instance, some extremely major breakthrough in magic—like the proposed Ranaldian theurgy—could absolutely be something we accomplish. But something that groundbreaking and that significant had better be the product of decades of constant and dedicated effort. It'd break my SoD if we were to embark on that quest and not have to spend dozens of turns on it before finishing.

A good example of this kind of effort is actually from Dynasty. Frederick's law project, which has been cooking for many, many turns now, is the product of great effort; thus when it finally comes to fruition its benefits will be earned, both by the thread and by the character.

Accomplishing anything major takes hard work and dedication. That needs to be reflected both in the thread and in the fiction.
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My main problem with our growth is that we get all our best traits and stat boosts from war turns that happen over a couple of weeks, it makes the 6 month turns feel slow and a little anemic in comparison.
 
ninjafish said:
Shyish doesn't turn into dhar when interacting with dhar in necromancy,
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I would actually surmise that it does, it just doesn't matter as long as you keep supplying it. Think of it like a welding torch; even though the fuel hits the igniter and turns into something else you're still powering it with gas.
veekie said:
If you got just flour and eggs could make pasta instead
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Spaghetti cake, even better. :V
 
chocolote12 said:
I would actually surmise that it does, it just doesn't matter as long as you keep supplying it. Think of it like a welding torch; even though the fuel hits the igniter and turns into something else you're still powering it with gas.

Spaghetti cake, even better. :V
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I reckon, it doesn't because an area would run low on shyish if it being converted in dhar.

But it isn't.
 
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