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I reckon, it doesn't because an area would run low on shyish if it being converted in dhar.

But it isn't.
Areas sort of have ambient winds, but they're said to blow for a reason; rather than finite resources, think of them like multipliers on what a wizard can intentionally draw.

There's a reason Mathilde can fire the mountain indefinitely, and it's not because our Ulgu attracting infrastructure is very inefficient or anything.

The only wind that pools in certain locations and can run out is, ironically, not Shyish but Dhar.
 
You don't know that, like at all

You guys don't know that it does either.

For fucks sake, its not even a risk, why are you all so averse to trying things?

if this works its an incredibly fuck massive even that could flip the world on its side, and if it doesn't it doesn't really harm anything due to our belt and other safety measures.
 
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What are the chances that clan Mors decide to unconditionally surrender in exchange for not being wiped off the face of the Earth, since the undercity is out for their blood, the Mors clan is desperate, and faces extinction. A sort of live and let live situation where they ignore us and we ignore them. The traitor clan have enemies on all sides, so would they give peace a chance?

The conditions are they won't attack the dwarves, or create more breeders, a sort of interment camp to keep them in check until they die of old age, or at least continue worshipping the horned rat without the goal of trying to conquer the world if they have to worship their God just to pay lip service to avoid his wrath.
 
You guys don't know that it does either.

For fucks sake, its not even a risk, why are all so averse to trying things?
I mean, I want to do the tongs, I think it's just a matter of quibbling over the specifics.
The traitor clan have enemies on all sides, so would they give peace a chance?
Most of them couldn't even comprehend the idea of making the offer, or of there being a polity who would accept it. If they could they could have also comprehended the prospect of much more rewarding cowardice and vamoosed a few months ago.
 
For fucks sake, its not even a risk, why are you all so averse to trying things?
You want to try something that most of us think won't work, and spend AP on it, when instead we could be trying one of the several other things we have that will produce usable results.

You yourself opposed Theurgy because you think it won't produce results that are usable by atheist mages - but what you're looking for is almost certain to produce no results that can be used by mages without a Rune of Valaya to protect them. It might produce no usable results at all.

Worshipping a god is a lot more common than gaining massive favour with the dawi.
 
What are the chances that clan Mors decide to unconditionally surrender in exchange for not being wiped off the face of the Earth, since the undercity is out for their blood, the Mors clan is desperate, and faces extinction. A sort of live and let live situation where they ignore us and we ignore them. The traitor clan have enemies on all sides, so would they give peace a chance?

The conditions are they won't attack the dwarves, or create more breeders, a sort of interment camp to keep them in check until they die of old age, or at least continue worshipping the horned rat without the goal of trying to conquer the world if they have to worship their God just to pay lip service to avoid his wrath.
Probably pretty high. That does include the fact that they will stab us in the back as soon as they have the opportunity though.

They are called skaven for a reason, their mostly cowards. If they can say one thing to get you to stop attacking them they will. We have no way to force them into honoring their words.

They breed way to fast for us to put them into camps and the dwarves aren't going to watch them or let them live anywhere near them. They have a grudge and dwarves will kill the skaven if given the chance.
 
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Why are you being so toxic about this get-rich-quick scheme anyways?

I'm not being toxic, it's not like i'm insulting you all or threatening you.

I'm just kinda baffled about the sheer unwillingness to try and break new ground I'm seeing here.

Humanity has always achieved its greatest things when it just completely breaks from the accepted norms and journey's into the unknown just to see if there's anything interesting there!

It's a game, take some risks, make mistakes!

there's no harm in it, and if it works the benefits are potentially massive.

like "Entirely new lores of magic" massive.
 
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I'm not being toxic, it's not like i'm insulting you all or threatening you.

I'm just kinda baffled about the sheer unwillingness to try and break new ground I'm seeing here.
If you just want to break new ground, go for theurgy or aethyric vitae. Or, hell, we could try and create a human version of the Waagh!, that'd be cool.

Tongs aren't breaking new ground, they're letting Mathilde do stuff that other mages could do, but worse, and in a way no-one else can make use of because of the Dhar radiation.
 
I'm not being toxic, it's not like i'm insulting you all or threatening you.

I'm just kinda baffled about the sheer unwillingness to try and break new ground I'm seeing here.

Humanity has always achieved its greatest things when it just completely breaks from the accepted norms and journey's into the unknown just to see if there's anything interesting there!

It's a game, take some risks, make mistakes!

there's no harm in it, and if it works the benefits are potentially massive.

like "Entirely new lores of magic" massive.
I think the main reason why we aren't giving it any time of the day is we just have such a backlog of stuff to do. It isn't neccesarrily a bad idea its just the time needed to do it.

You can always make a plan during our turn to do it and people will vote. That the great thing about a quest, everyone is involved.
 
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there's no harm in it, and if it works the benefits are potentially massive.

like "Entirely new lores of magic" massive.
There's multiple possibilities, assuming it actually works. I expect it'll mean that we can use Relatively Simple spells from other Lores with the same difficulty as Fiendishly Complex of our own, something along those lines. Which might be good for versatility, but isn't the most practical.
 
If you just want to break new ground, go for theurgy or aethyric vitae. Or, hell, we could try and create a human version of the Waagh! that'd be cool.

Tongs aren't breaking new ground, they're letting Mathilde do stuff that other mages could do, but worse, and in a way no-one else can make use of because of the Dhar radiation.

Theurgy isn't new ground, it's just difficult, obscure, and non usable by most wizards of the colleges.

Ranaldian theurgy especially so, Because I doubt there are many ranaldian wizards outside the greys.

And i want to study the vitae too.

And no the tongs method created a new lore of magic in the form of necromancy, in which both components (Shyish, Death, the passing of time, endings, Dhar: Corruption, pollution, unnaturalness) influenced the final product. (Necromancy, Undeath.)

High magic and dhar both allow you get effects far beyond any of the single component winds by mixing them.

Mixing just two might allow something similar.
 
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I'm not being toxic, it's not like i'm insulting you all or threatening you.

I'm just kinda baffled about the sheer unwillingness to try and break new ground I'm seeing here.

Humanity has always achieved its greatest things when it just completely breaks from the accepted norms and journey's into the unknown just to see if there's anything interesting there!

It's a game, take some risks, make mistakes!

there's no harm in it, and if it works the benefits are massive.
"Come on, everyone, let's go into the wilderness! I think there's a gold mine that way!"

"Has anyone seen this gold mine?"

"Well, no, but it feels to me like there should be one in that direction!"

"But, like, we've got a gold mine. Right here. We've been trying to scrape up the time to work it..."

"Yeah, but there might be a better one over there!"

"...and we know where there is a second mine, also right around here, for if we get tired of the first mine; it might not be a second gold mine, but we're pretty sure there's something there."

"But the one over there is so cool!"

"You don't even know if there is one over there, you just think there might be. Sorry, we're not interested in prospecting for a gold mine when we've got a gold mine already that we've barely touched and another mine of precious something."

"Ugh, you guys have no willingness to break new ground!"
 
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What are the chances that clan Mors decide to unconditionally surrender in exchange for not being wiped off the face of the Earth, since the undercity is out for their blood, the Mors clan is desperate, and faces extinction. A sort of live and let live situation where they ignore us and we ignore them. The traitor clan have enemies on all sides, so would they give peace a chance?

The conditions are they won't attack the dwarves, or create more breeders, a sort of interment camp to keep them in check until they die of old age, or at least continue worshipping the horned rat without the goal of trying to conquer the world if they have to worship their God just to pay lip service to avoid his wrath.
The Skaven? No idea.
The chances of the dwarfs actually proposing or accepting such a deal? Damn near zero.
 
I'm not being toxic, it's not like i'm insulting you all or threatening you.

I'm just kinda baffled about the sheer unwillingness to try and break new ground I'm seeing here.

Humanity has always achieved its greatest things when it just completely breaks from the accepted norms and journey's into the unknown just to see if there's anything interesting there!

It's a game, take some risks, make mistakes!

there's no harm in it, and if it works the benefits are potentially massive.

like "Entirely new lores of magic" massive.
There is nothing there that theurgy doesn't get us, and at least with theurgy we at least have the basis of "it's how elfs work" instead of "it's how necros work"
 
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"Come on, everyone, let's go into the wilderness! I think there's a gold mine that way!"

"Has anyone seen this gold mine?"

"Well, no, but it feels to me like there should be one in that direction!"

"But, like, we've got a gold mine. Right here. We've been trying to scrape up the time to work it..."

"Yeah, but there might be a better one over there!"

"...and we know where there is a second mine, also right around here, for if we get tired of the first gold mine; it might not be a gold mine, but we're pretty sure there's something there."

"But the one over there is so cool!"

"You don't even know if there is one over there, you just think there might be. Sorry, we're not interested in prospecting for a gold mine when we've got a gold mine already that we've barely touched and another mine of precious something."

"Ugh, you guys have no willingness to break new ground!"
Spoken like a true Dawi! Makes kraag so proud.
 
"Come on, everyone, let's go into the wilderness! I think there's a gold mine that way!"

"Has anyone seen this gold mine?"

"Well, no, but it feels to me like there should be one in that direction!"

"But, like, we've got a gold mine. Right here. We've been trying to scrape up the time to work it..."

"Yeah, but there might be a better one over there!"

"...and we know where there is a second mine, also right around here, for if we get tired of the first gold mine; it might not be a gold mine, but we're pretty sure there's something there."

"But the one over there is so cool!"

"You don't even know if there is one over there, you just think there might be. Sorry, we're not interested in prospecting for a gold mine when we've got a gold mine already that we've barely touched and another mine of precious something."

"Ugh, you guys have no willingness to break new ground!"

Sometimes just heading off into the unknown is what you need to do.

Like with European colonialism.

Never would have happened if some dude hadn't tried to make a completely new route to india through unexplored waters.

Tongs could be the atlantic ocean, and multi wind lores the america's!
 
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Never would have happened if some dude hadn't tried to make a completely new route to india through unexplored waters.
He was also ignoring thousands of years of knowledge about the size of the Earth, and if he hadn't had the sheer dumb luck to run into a continent, he'd have either died or turned back in disgrace. He also never found any kind of route to India.

I'm not sure that this is a flattering example.
 
He was also ignoring thousands of years of knowledge about the size of the Earth, and if he hadn't had the sheer dumb luck to run into a continent, he'd have either died or turned back in disgrace.

And yet, it still ended up benefiting him massively.

Sometimes the greatest discoveries are made entirely by accident, or just a random gamble.

also unlike columbus we're not going to be spouting off about it unless we actually get results, nor will stake our entire reputation on it, if it fails it will just be shunted into the dust bin of worthless projects like the shyish kebabs.
 
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An excerpt from the journals of Soizic d'Karak, a Questing Knight 12
An excerpt from the journal of Soizic d'Karak, a Questing Knight-

Dear diary, let me rest my weary feet with you a moment, as the celebratory music and feasting continues below. I write from the seats of a new addition to our Karak (built with typical dwarven speed!), an ampitheater where only hours ago thousands sat and cheered, and I saw such things I never thought would come to pass in this life of mine.

Oh! But to jump to the end would spoil the story. Let me tell you of how I have found myself watching, once again, as history herself reached down to ruffle the hair of those here.

It began (this chapter, at least!) with the revelation of the motives behind the oh-so-mysterious magister's visit to my humble self. Dear diary, my troubled thoughts on that have graced your pages but recently, I shall not repeat them here. Suffice to say, the days that followed made mess of my focus and I spent much time within the Karak, for doubt had been planted and I sought to find what may have prompted such attention.

It was easy for one to have overlooked the changes sprung quick upon my home de jour, when all one did behind the safety of the gate was eat and sleep. Looking back now I can count stretches of at least several weeks where the shadows of the East Gate scarce touched my head, and my perch on the walls of Und-Uzgar was reliable enough that messages began to be directed there. But what else was I to do? Francesco was all but buried under the tasks of setting up a sort of tiny city around the kernel of those who stayed, and Oswald under the paperwork of feeding, paying, organizing, and disciplining near on six thousand humans in the service of dwarves. (Who, to be quite honest, did not seem to have the slightest idea what to do with us.) But! We had King Belegar's charge, and though the work done by my fellows was beyond doubt needed, I could not in good faith allow my face to turn from the broken stones of Death Pass. At least, such was what I told myself, but truth be told when I eased off the only ones to note were my lieutenants and they seemed happy for a chance at detached command.

Thus, to the changes to the Karak, such that I can recall as of the time. Most notable were the towers and walls slowly rising in the southern flank of the east valley, and the intermittent horn sounds that signalled tools down until the latest troll to wander out had been dealt with. I confess, it may not have been the first time I witnessed dwarven stonework coming together, but dear diary I found myself fascinated! Aught there was to compare against but the poor, slow, crude work mine own homeland produces, and the idea that a stream of untrained peasants with rounded fieldstone and trowels full of mud could be fair comparison is almost laughable. Each tower grew as if merely waiting for the world to reveal it as it had always been; each stone shaped and destined for it's own particular spot, each touch of mortar carefully judged and not a drop more or less than needed applied. Forgive me, my Lady, for finding poetry in masonry that only swordplay had before this held, but the sigh I released upon the fitting of an arch keystone was given with my whole heart. Such finesse!

But lest you think me too far gone to the creep of dwarfish obsessions, let me also note the stables and haystacks cut into the slopes of Karag Nar, and the motley collection of oxen, donkey, rider horse, draft horse, draft-goat (!?) and cow that in such spaces accumulated. Now, such things were no surprise, for I had been several times now called upon to escort caravans whom approached well-mounted and left afoot, but the sheer number of animals was easy to lose, only apparent with sight of the herds here assembled.

No warhorses worth the name, unfortunately, else I would have found myself light on pay and a good deal taller than my fellows next patrol. Alas. Perhaps it is for the better- pikes work best surrounded by others, and I'm coming to be convinced the same is true of swords.

Notable also were there efforts of the halflings, for in short months the dry dust of battlegrounds twice wrest from greenskin grip had blossomed. Dear diary, far 'nough have I come in self-honesty to admit my heart aches for flowers in our mountain home, but the tender care with which bean sprouts were placed in rank and file did grant a smile to my face.

Whilst still somewhat in my reverie, I walked back best I could to the place I stood months ago, pike first time in my grip and a waaagh before me direct. Such marks as had scuffed the ground were gone, of course, but even the gentle rises upon which we had stood were no more, flattened into terraces for the purpose (as one cheerful fellow wandering past was convinced to detail) of holding on every drop of precious water that might be spared. Naught of the Waaagh remained to be seen, not even bones. It felt... Satisfying.

And then there were the spiders. I can only conclude the God of Luck still wishes to laugh at me, such that I was in the heart of the valley then of all times.

May the Lady grant me fortitude to bear goodwill to our newest allies, for I shall need it sorely.

Wizards, it seems, are not content to poke their noses quite everywhere and upset poor fair knights. Nor, it seems, are they content to do such things AND build a tower atop a mountain AND scout alone 'neath the depths of the earth AND fly off in gyrocopters to play diplomat all at the same time! No, this wizard could only be content if she did all of that I've scribed above AND ...(oh diary what that I could convey the minutes I've spent starting at your pages on more frustration reaching for the right words which simply refuse to come!)

Spiders. Three the size of houses, some four dozen the size of ponies, and Lady only knows how may smaller ones rode the others. Dear diary, hundreds and hundreds of spiders.

Ah! By my words you may be picturing a flood of skittering bodies, but oh diary let me dissuade you. This was a parade. Marching spiders two by two, long lines of cavalry flanking the hulking, swarming center column. The Dame Webber was, of course, leading the procession on that horse of shadows she rides.

Imagine here a deep breath.

Have I written of her (for I believe the dame's horse to wear the shape of a mare) before? I cannot recall. Coal black and slightly steaming, with no gloss as might be expected of hair, and a mane and tail both more akin to an exhalation on a cold day than strands of any earthly material, but the most unnatural thing about her may be her eyes, for naught can be made out save at angle that gives brief silhouetted glimpses. An arabian style mare, perhaps with a hint of destrirre in her, good shanks and a long neck, clean withers. She is most expressive with her ears, and I swear to you I saw her once dip her head to drink at a fog on the ground as armies stood waiting. I do not believe the magister has named her? I must ask given the chance- dear diary don't let me forget!

But, look at my rambling scrawl! I am remiss in my distraction.

The purpose of the Magister's questioning was revealed not long after I began to more closely haunt the settlements. Francesco, for all he glowers and broods fit to be a dwarf himself, cannot contain himself should he be truly excited. (And dear diary, should I ever need the reminder, direct mine eyes to his right shoulder, for when he feels an advantage to hand he will hunch it slight 'bove the other, as of for a thrust. It matters not if fencing, or cards, or upending news.) Francesco does credit to the duelists who trained him and waits for his most devastating moment in this as all else, but the smirk that man wore around the Karag for days was almost insufferable.

On the occasion whence he finally deigned share, twas a morn perhaps three weeks(?) past the arrival of a large caravan under the banner of the EIC. He had asked both Oswald and I to meet with him after, but said he had a message for the Undumgi as a whole. For once(!) Death pass was clear of wagons and walkers, so we all had mustered, though the pikes remained in armory. He spoke as the sun rose out of the shadow of Sunrise Mountain, Karag Nar, telling us again of who we were and where we came from and how we earned this and what we were going to do next. The last was a surprise, but not because of the content; he'd spoken to some of us round drinks late at night a time or thrice since we began our endeavor, his slow gravely voice laying out a vision of wealth and pride, a city and an army to rival any in the old world. What surprised me was him laying it out in short fragments to the entirety of the mountain, sober sun rising in the east. We cheered him when he proclaimed the Wizard had asked him to lead the humans of the Karak and he had accepted, then doubled and redoubled as he lit up in glorious flame, orating of the victories we would win over all enemies!

After he showed us the torq of fire given him to mantle his authority, and spoke to us of how to use it such that it might carry renown and gather laurels to his name by acts of his heirs, should he fall in battle. He asked me to take on in truth the title Knight-Captain, and lead as I had been, patrols in peacetime and vanguard in war. Oswald he asked to remain as Gate-Captain, to hold command of fortresses in peace and seige in times of war.

We drank deep that night, and would that have been the only thing that's happened since last I wrote it would be enough. But dear diary, I've barely scratched the surface and already the present moment is ringing with calls of my name. I am summoned!

Dear diary, there are more and more impressive a court here than I have ere wandered before. I go to dance; wish me luck!
 
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Why even waste the AP on it then, when Theurgy just sounds so much safer and more useful?

Because it might be fun?

As a great man once said, "Science isn't about why, It's about Why not!"

This is a game, and we are questers, not corporate executives, we don't have to be perfectly efficient and profitable all the time.
 
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Sometimes just heading off into the unknown is what you need to to do.

Like with European colonialism.

Never would have happened if some dude hadn't tried to make a completely new route to india through unexplored waters.

Tongs could be the atlantic ocean, and multi wind lores the america's!

You mean NOT doing this is like we could AVOID killing the majority of the population of 3 continents, hooking most of a nation on opium, enslaving and exploiting most of an entire race, and destroying countless cultures? You make a great case.
 
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