Its not bioogical. Its cultural. They aren't trying, they have JUST enough children to fulfill their duties, and no more becuse the world is too cruel to subject more children to it
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I'm not sure I agree with this. The Elves and Dwarves didn't decline due to an inability to adapt to changing circumstances, they declined due to world shaking events and their pride. The Dwarves could give up on the Dammaz Kron and probably eventually rebuild their species, but they won't due to their pride. The Elves could have elected to swallow their pride and make amends with the Dwarves before the War of Vengeance, but they didn't. And in some ways their long lives work against them here. It's been relatively few generations since the Sundering for the Elves, so there's been no chance of reconciliation as time softens attitudes and memory, whereas when the Empire underwent a similar event (the time of Three Emperors) the people and beliefs that started it all died off and they reconciled.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Ah, yes, humanity was helpless before Nagash, who was far to powerful for them to survive because he was a ... *checks notes* human?
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
So, because I'm a shameless shit-stirrer and was having a few thoughts about rewards, title, reputation, shipping, and various and sundry other thing, I have to ask; how does Queen Mathilde sound?
- Location
- madison
Thats just flat wrong. A human will never match a dwarf. But a human guild will absolutely be able to match a dwarven one in the long term. Dwarfs are shit at tech propagation and iterating. A dwarf will invent something game changing, and horde the secret passing it only to the worthy. A human will invent something game changing, and 10 years later someone will make a better version of it. As for magic, maybe elves just are better at it, but humans have never really been full into magic have they?
Humans work together, we don't rely on individual brilliance like the elves or dwarfs. Oh sure the most brilliant do a lot of the research work. But then a generation of only moderately bright folks refine their ideas in a hundred different ways. Humans will never likily never have top-end artifacts to match the top end artifacts of the elves and dwarves at their height, but I strongly suspect their stuff will have a much higher baseline, or maybe the baseline will get high enough that those high-end artifacts don't look all that impressive.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
We're unlikely to find anything.
The Vat will need to have gone to someone inside the colleges who both recognize it's possibilities and who is skilled enough to make it work without Dhar and Skaven organs. The latter which we don't even know if is possible.
Also, it is worth noting that most of the hints were in-thread speculation. I should know, I was the one heralding said speculation.
Like something with way too many responsibilities and not enough time to do the things that need to be done.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Sooo, where we already are?
DevilsAdvocate
Always follow the golden rule.
Great, now all they will do is go industrial revolution using alcohol in place of oil, and have a growing population of specialized wizardfolk rather than a declining population of masterwizardfolk.
Their inability to adapt is because of their pride. Still have an inability to adapt.
But yes, our birthrates and lifespans are a big important part of why we can adapt.
You have a point their I'm pretty sure lore wise the wardstone in Albion are why it is a marshy mess. I think the ward stone make it constantly rain which led the fimir to settle there. This means even though they powered the siphoning of the warp they mess up the surround area.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
So to build on this lets describe what earlier experiments with multi-wind actually were because we have some WoG.
Now as context the way magic typically works is that the caster uses their soul as a nexus point drawing in the wind or winds of magic (If you're a swanky elf or slaan, alternatively if you're a crazy dhar using megolomaniac) they intend to use and shape spells via their willpower and their souls. Previous multi wind experiments in the college that we've been told about involved channelling one wind of magic, detoxing and then channelling the second wind of magic. All attempts to things this way ended up with corrupted casters that ended up on the dhar path.
from this we can learn/infer two things, channelling the winds of magic even if they don't create arcane marks will still have micro effects on the soul involved which makes small bits of dhar get created as the human soul is likely to mutable. Secondly that channelling more than one wind is never viable as a human even if you avoid arcane marks, at least with collegiate techniques that were created by Teclis (WOG here is that Teclis created a tradition of magic to make humans better able to mono focus winds.
We know that past human magisters didn't have the tools Mathilde does, we also know that the first 30 years of the colleges was mostly frontier journeying and combat with academic experimentation likely being at a minimum. We also know that for another thirty years the colleges of magic were banned again. So the amount of time the Colleges of magic have actually had to do pure experimentation is not nearly as long as you would think from the length of their existence. Wind-Wind interactions were soft-banned very early on because of the dangers of creating dhar and aren't allowed unless you've a good idea on how to circumvent dhar creation.
So to summarise, early multi-wind experiments were channelling (Not what we want) didn't have safety tools, and there wasn't nearly as much time that could have been dedicated to the potential research project.
So that covers the past but what about the future.
Mathilde has four things going for her that the average Magister (that is full blown wizard, not just journeyman) doesn't. She has magical senses as acute as Volans, She has a belt which destroys dhar before it can impact her even if she were to hug a daemon or juggle warpstone. She has a dwarven tower which blocks all the outside winds of magic allowing her to run magical tests with no outside interference so she can see more clearly what does and doesn't work and why and lastly she has the fundamental understanding of how necromancy uses Shyish tongs to manipulate dhar.
We know that the winds of magic interact in the wild naturally with out producing dhar, that's evidence of why it should be possible to influence one wind of magic with another with out creating dhar. High magic is an example of all eight winds being use concurrently and not making dhar (Softer evidence, i'll grant due to the possibility that it only matters if all eight are used)
I have to go for about an hour will edit post with more when I can.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
There's a difference between 'refuse to do x because of pride' and 'cannot do x because that's not the task the species is was designed for'. One is cultural, the other is some weird combination of genetics and programming.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Not Empire humans.
Nuln is suppressing all kinds of non-violent innovations from this one genius on the grounds that if the peasants don't have to do backbreaking work all the time they'll probably riot.
DevilsAdvocate
Always follow the golden rule.
They are "programed" more from their culture in this case.
- Pronouns
- It/They
this, humans have different flaws than dwarves or elves, but there flaws are no less crippling, and without the advantages to offset them.
They're selfish, they're greedy, they're treacherous, and contemptuous of advancement. they cling hidebound to they're gods dogma even when said dogma is actively harmful to them. They're short lives may mean they're grudges may fade, but it will also mean that they will inevitably forget the lessons taught by history, ensuring they get stuck in ruts or repeating the same set of errors every few generations, and that wisdom will die with the wise men.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that the culture is less programming than if it was a result of them being unable to complete tasks the Old Ones hadn't set because not every Elf or Dwarf is going to be bound by that cultural expectation (see Belegar and other Dwarven radicals for example).
- Location
- Land of Confusion
Quoting from the Sylvania 101 tab of the Collection of Important Information threadmark -
Edit: wrong word.
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@ninjafish I think it might be wise to try to approach getting basic tongs experiments voted in from a different perceptive. Your very definitive claims that it will work is more likely to make players vote against it then for it, particularly when you mix 'Dhar is not bad' with it. Personally I am of the opinion that it is an avenue worth trying at least once to see if it is viable and if it turns out it is not we just write it off not go off the deep end about how 'Nagash was right'
For the record he was not, Nagash is a miserable pile of neurosis seeking the end of all that lives and if he should succeeds his existence in utter emptiness will make the life of the most miserable Skaven Slave in the Underempire look like paradise.
For the record he was not, Nagash is a miserable pile of neurosis seeking the end of all that lives and if he should succeeds his existence in utter emptiness will make the life of the most miserable Skaven Slave in the Underempire look like paradise.
- Location
- madison
For now. The thing about humans is we cycle out. So bad habits die like good ones. Sonner or latter that practice will stop.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I'm not really following this conversation, so i may be wrong here, but it seems counterproductive to me to argue about how dwarves can't do anything outside their "programming" by pointing at the exact dwarves who actually are doing those things. Unless the programming is supposed to mean something other than all the dwarf traits Belegar is trying to shed?
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Necromancy sucks and given time we will fix ALL the worlds fucking problems and that is in fact a god damn threat so please take the angst that is quite clearly based in real world issues somewhere else
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- Pronouns
- It/They
Fair nuff.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
My argument is that the Elves and Dwarfs are in decline not because of how they were designed by the Old Ones but due to their culture which is something that doesn't apply to every Dwarf/Elf like the flaws they have due to the Old Ones do.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Ooooooooooooooooohhhh, yeah, sorry, I got words twisted around in my head and misunderstood the meaning. It was a somewhat twisty sentence.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
And yet, consider that even those stupid and isane morons still managed to become army levels threats and take over entire regions of the Empire. Imagine what the sheer power of Dhar could do in the hands of someone who's actually competent!
People want Mathilde to be strong enough throw down with the bigger boys of Warhammer? This is the surest and fastest way to get powerful enough to actually leave a large-scale impact in the world of Warhammer!
- Location
- Singapore
Just dropping in quickly to chime in about my thoughts about new perk acquisition - might I suggest readopting the Shiny system from the initial character generation of this quest, so that trait upgrades and trait acquisition may well have a different set of cost? For example, for Mathilde to upgrade a pre-existing trait, such as from Windreader to Windsage, she only needs to spend half a Shiny, since she's already developing ways of thinking and doing that she already has a foundation of. Getting a new trait, however, might cost an entire Shiny, since Mathilde is building an entirely new foundation.
I do believe that such a move can potentially generate interesting debates, increase player freedom, and even make having to choose a potential Nega-trait (double agent, disdain for Sigmar, College Debt, etc...) more palatable if it comes with a gain in the number of shines available. And in some ways, given that new trait selections happen as a result of a conclusion of a major arc, in a way, it's alot like rebooting the character generation system for Mathilde to take in new abilities and avenues of development into the next arc.
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