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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Honestly it's important to remember that for the longest time the Dwarves and Elves ways worked... until they didn't.

Natually they are longer lived so they are going to slower to change in response, which in turn causes things to get worse while they try and adapt to the old changes, and even worse if they make a change that isn't for the better cultural inerta means they have to take the time to undo that change than move to a new one.

In some ways allying with a shorter lived species that can take a few hits from mistakes and bounce back from them in short order might actually be of help to them.
 
Omegahugger said:
And yet, consider that even those stupid and isane morons still managed to become army levels threats and take over entire regions of the Empire. Imagine what the sheer power of Dhar could do in the hands of someone who's actually competent!

People want Mathilde to be strong enough throw down with the bigger boys of Warhammer? This is the surest and fastest way to get powerful enough to actually leave a large-scale impact in the world of Warhammer!
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It is the fastest way to break things, I don't think anyone doubts that, but when it comes to building anything...

*points to Nagash brooding in the ruins of his old lair surrounded by the Desolation that his magics wrought*

Behold the Kingdom of the Great Necromancer, it is not grand?
 
DragonParadox said:
It is the fastest way to break things, I don't think anyone doubts that, but when it comes to building anything...

*points to Nagash brooding in the ruins of his old lair surrounded by the Desolation that his magics wrought*

Behold the Kingdom of the Great Necromancer, it is not grand?
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I mean in canon he eventually got himself a bitchin realm of undeath and get all the dead people everywhere in AOS... so... maybe?
 
ninjafish said:
I would argue that humanity literally can't achieve the heights that the elves and dwarves did, because the traits that enabled the elves and dwarves to do those things aren't present in humans.

because no matter how hard a human tries they will never be able to use high magic, or create runes.

maybe gromril.. but i doubt it, someone would have tried that shit by now if it wasn't some unique dwarf only thing.
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You are right.

But, as demonstrated here, for a peasant girl who got lucky, you dont need to be the best at magic to make a change.

You only need to have the will, and the drive.
And that's why we root for her.

And i wonder if there are other Mathilda out there amongs the apprentice who might have the same potential to change the world they live in.
 
DragonParadox said:
It is the fastest way to break things, I don't think anyone doubts that, but when it comes to building anything...

*points to Nagash brooding in the ruins of his old lair surrounded by the Desolation that his magics wrought*

Behold the Kingdom of the Great Necromancer, it is not grand?
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Not to agree with Omegahugger, but that seems to rather be his point. The idiots who let themselves get corrupted got screwed over by their power, but Mathilde would be safe from that, theoretically, so she wouldn't just leave desolation in her wake. On the other hand, I rather doubt Valaya would continue granting her protection if we started deliberately messing around with Dhar In any capacity beyond the Second Secret. It's a nice safety net for dangerous experimentation or encountering chaos factions who use Dhar-based magic, but when your protection is dependent upon the goodwill of another being, especially something like a a dwarf god, It's rather stupid to start using that as an excuse to do evil shit.
 
ninjafish said:
I mean in canon he eventually got himself a bitchin realm of undeath and get all the dead people everywhere in AOS... so... maybe?
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Leaving aside that this involves end time stupidity, the only reason he god a kingdoms and not a vast ringing emptiness killed with puppets is because he did not actually succeed at what he was trying to do. Nagash is his own worst enemy in may ways. For him victory means an eternity alone yet unable to even go mad to escape the horror of it.
 
DragonParadox said:
It is the fastest way to break things, I don't think anyone doubts that, but when it comes to building anything...

*points to Nagash brooding in the ruins of his old lair surrounded by the Desolation that his magics wrought*

Behold the Kingdom of the Great Necromancer, it is not grand?
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The lands of Sylvania stood proud on the back of Dhar for centuries.

It didn't last forever, of course, but it took an imperial invasion to tear down. That's not the fault of Dhar, any building can crumble if you shoot it with enough cannons.

ninjafish said:
It's canon, you need to let it go my dude.

The end times happened.

Chaos won, then sigmar met a giant met a giant space dragon and made some sigmarines out of lightning and shit.

You just have to accept it.
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The End Times are literally not canon to this quest, so Mathilde ascending as a Goddess of Undeath remains just a theoretical possibility,
 
veekie said:
Its not bioogical. Its cultural. They aren't trying, they have JUST enough children to fulfill their duties, and no more becuse the world is too cruel to subject more children to it
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Thanks for the clarification.

So the best thing we can do is to retake K8P completely and hopefully trigger a post-war baby boom. Fair.

Omegahugger said:
We're unlikely to find anything.

The Vat will need to have gone to someone inside the colleges who both recognize it's possibilities and who is skilled enough to make it work without Dhar and Skaven organs. The latter which we don't even know if is possible.

Also, it is worth noting that most of the hints were in-thread speculation. I should know, I was the one heralding said speculation.
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Thanks. Its is sometimes hard to be sure what is WOG rather than speculation.


That said the idea of cloning Kragg the Grim so we have a baby version of him wandering around would be hilarious. And mean that Kragg would finally have a worthy apprentice but mostly hilarious.
 
ninjafish said:
There machinery will never be as good as the dwarfs, their magic never as good as the elves.
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ninjafish said:
It's not a matter of time, Elf mages are just plain better than human mages and that will never change, Dwarven smiths and engineers are just plain better than their human equivalent's, and that will never not be the case.
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Eh, steam tanks, Nagash (and vampirism/necromancy in general).

Humans or at least human derived non-Chaotic factions have pretty high highs in both magic and engineering - hardly less high than Dwarfs and Elves. Sure the average human is pants but the absolute peaks aren't that much worse compared to those of the elder races (except for the continent moving toad mages).

Steam tanks might not be gyrocopters but they're a neat, totally human piece of engineering for example. A single human civilization (albeit probably the most advanced of them) scared the skaven into acting together and created a large scale, transmissible method of magical ascension, marking them the first since the Old Ones to basically create a new species (depending on how one counts vampires). The Karaz Ankor is straight up not capable of doing some of the stuff humans have done and even the elves don't have quite as much of an overwhelming advantage in terms of heroes and innovation as it might appear at first glance.
 
Ericwinter said:
Not to agree with Omegahugger, but that seems to rather be his point. The idiots who let themselves get corrupted got screwed over by their power, but Mathilde would be safe from that, theoretically, so she wouldn't just leave desolation in her wake. On the other hand, I rather doubt Valaya would continue granting her protection if we started deliberately messing around with Dhar In any capacity beyond the Second Secret. It's a nice safety net for dangerous experimentation or encountering chaos factions who use Dhar-based magic, but when your protection is dependent upon the goodwill of another being, especially something like a a dwarf god, It's rather stupid to start using that as an excuse to do evil shit.
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Nagash is literally the inventor of necromancy, a genius the likes of which the world has never since seen, dismissing him as 'an idiot who let himself be corrupted' with the implication that Mathilde would somehow do better seems the height of hubris to me, and not the jokey quest kind, the actual Greek Tragedy definition.
 
DragonParadox said:
Nagash is literally the inventor of necromancy, a genius the likes of which the world has never since seen, dismissing him as 'an idiot who let himself be corrupted' with the implication that Mathilde would somehow do better seems the height of hubris to me, and not the jokey quest kind, the actual Greek Tragedy definition.
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this is true.

@Omegahugger you can't just go dissing bone daddy-o like that.

Without his labors resurrecting abel would be a pipe dream!
 
DragonParadox said:
Nagash is literally the inventor of necromancy, a genius the likes of which the world has never since seen, dismissing him as 'an idiot who let himself be corrupted' with the implication that Mathilde would somehow do better seems the height of hubris to me, and not the jokey quest kind, the actual Greek Tragedy definition.
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As I said, not agreeing with Omega. On the other hand, there is a clear fact that he was corrupted by Dhar while Mathilde, theoretically wouldn't be. I personally wouldn't risk it, but still.
 
Night said:
That's one way we might deal with Belegar's depression, I'll grant.
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I know right? I mean, we've practically handed him the Karak on a silver platter, and if we can keep this up to claim Yar and even possibly Rhyn, there would be no practically about it. Considrring the fluff on his character sheet already, I could totally see him deciding making absolutely damn sure Mathilde stayed in K8Ps was the best course of action. Of course that means we can't woo Kragg, but I think just having him as a best buddy is good enough.
 
I can't believe everyone's talking about "the easiest and fastest way to make a permanent and/or large scale impact" and forgetting that we always have the option to Literally Detonate A Mountain.
 
vsh said:
I think humans are way better with magic, no? Skaven only have seers and Eshin sorcerers, and that's it.
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No. They have spellcasting plague priests, warlock engineers and harbingers of mutation as well.

Every major clan gets its own spellcasters, and we don't know it minor clans that haven't had their own army lists have their own. It's hinted in Children of the Horned Rat that there are other less well known lores of magic amongst the skaven. There are even skaven necromancers.
 
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