Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
ReaperofInterest said:
So would it be worth the trouble to try and rollout the Hedgewise tributaries in Kislev? Any tributaries will be helpful, and Kislev doesn't have the same issues with the Hedgewise as the Empire does.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It totally would, given what Boney's said about Praag and Troll Country and how back when we only had tributaries Boney said it'd be Boris who'd be whooping for joy about even just having tributaries.

...Though I would like to note that the relevant action to spread tributaries to other countries doesn't say we need to specify which tributary, so presumably we would be telling tell Kislev how to do all three of them, if applicable:

Boney said:
[ ] Tributary: International (specify country)
Share information and expertise on how and where to create the tributaries to supplement existing Waystone networks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It would probably work out just fine anyway, given that the Forest of Shadows stretches out to Kislev anyway as the Shirokij, and Ostermark Hedgewise are right across the border.
 
Last edited:
Parabola said:
It totally would, given what Boney's said about Praag and Troll Country and how back when we only had tributaries Boney said it'd be Boris who'd be whooping for joy about even just having tributaries.

...Though I would like to note that the relevant action to spread tributaries to other countries doesn't say we need to specify which tributary, so presumably we would be telling tell Kislev how to do all three of them, if applicable:


It would probably work out just fine anyway, given that the Forest of Shadows stretches out to Kislev anyway as the Shirokij, and Ostermark Hedgewise are right across the border.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah. Well then, perhaps we should make the time to spread that knowledge if we can get the ball rolling on all 3 of then at once. Kislev needs all the help it can get.

redpotato4 said:
Why not Aethyric Impluvium instead? Plenty of Hag Witches who can quickly pick it up compared to the other rituals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was mainly thinking that the Hedgewise might appreciate us throwing them a bone by having the method they designed put into use, plus troubleshooting to see if it might have any final kinks that need to be ironed out like the Dreaming Woods version did. But if we can do all 3 types of tributaries at once, then I figure we might as well.
 
ReaperofInterest said:
I was mainly thinking that the Hedgewise might appreciate us throwing them a bone by having the method they designed put into use, plus troubleshooting to see if it might have any final kinks that need to be ironed out like the Dreaming Woods version did. But if we can do all 3 types of tributaries at once, then I figure we might as well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I figure Haletha ritual can be used for Ostland and Ostermark and the rest of Nordland. Maybe pair it with investigating the Forest of Shadows nexuses
 
Actually, since I brought up tributaries, would it be worth it to design some new ones? From what I remember, both the Hedgewise version and the Aethyric Impluvium need rivers, while the Dreaming Wood version needs...well, a Dreaming Wood. Some methods that aren't reliant on those would likely be useful.
 
NexusEye said:
Along the same lines it's possible that Dwarf culture may see "regular" suicide from causes such as depression or deep financial ruin as shameful but still see "noble" forms of suicide such as jumping in front of an enemy's strike to save a comrade, a captain going down with their ship, and of course Slayerdom, as something to be admired.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Can confirm.
<GW Online : Warhammer : Dwarfs : On the Trail of a Dragon>
The death of Baragor's daughter mere days before her wedding drove the king over the edge. When he was told the news, he sat stunned and unmoving upon the throne of Karak Kadrin. Try as they might, not one of the royal clan members or guild leaders could console him. Quiet enveloped the hold, as Baragor's subjects waited for their king to overcome his grief.

Two whole days passed in this manner before a strange Dwarf arrived in Karak Kadrin. He followed the path of the Slayer, and he was seeking supplies before he continued his hunt of a dangerous dragon seen in these parts. Standing before the king, the Slayer recognised Baragor's pain immediately and suggested the only honourable way out for a Dwarf.

Baragor pulled a knife from his belt and begin cutting off the sides of his hair.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Grudgelore page 6
The third death marked out for especial grudge is that of Gobrik Bannag of Clan Bannag. Gobrik Bannag gave his life in defence of King Kazador of Karak Azul. The brave beardling of only forty-three winters interposed himself between his liege-lord and the mace of a large and vicious
boar-riding urk. Gobrik Bannag was carried from the field with his skull broken and despite the attentions of the priestesses of Valaya died from the injury before he reached the hold. Gobrig Bannag Will Be Remembered.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

thepsyborg said:
Video unavailable. (Not even "in my region", just unavailable straight-up.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The song is Headpats and Praise from the Frieren soundtrack.

NavySeel said:
It's the Master's fault, he should have either never taken them in, if they weren't good enough (Like bad ore)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Skill issue. Smednir made Ghal Maraz with bad coal, bad ore, and bad tools. If an apprentice isn't good enough then it's the master at fault. This is what happens when you don't try hard enough to live up to the standards of your ancestors.

pucflek said:
Morek Furrowbrow, who was already Master Runesmith during reign of Gotrek Starbreaker
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Source?
 
Last edited:
ReaperofInterest said:
Actually, since I brought up tributaries, would it be worth it to design some new ones? From what I remember, both the Hedgewise version and the Aethyric Impluvium need rivers, while the Dreaming Wood version needs...well, a Dreaming Wood. Some methods that aren't reliant on those would likely be useful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Roots of Stone, the Halethan tributary, needs a standing stone dedicated to Haletha. It doesn't need rivers. Aethyric Impluvium needs the presence of a water spirit. It doesn't necessarily need rivers, because water spirits can move and it can use any type of water spirit. But because this is magic we're talking about, it's inconsistent. Some can move freely, some can't, some won't. It's preferable to use weaker spirits because the power of the spirit doesn't matter, but the failure condition of the ritual is angering it.

Roots of Stone can be used in Kislev by casters without Was Jutonian heritage; they'll just need to learn the ritual and the language. That said, it would be limited to the Shirokij Forest.

I'd like to investigate all the tributaries; they all sound cool. But if we're going to deploy tributaries to Kislev again, I'd prefer to have developed more tributary variants first. There's an Ice Witch variant that should be applicable. If nothing else Zlata deserves a win. But investigating Scythian tributaries would be cool too. They could probably use them better than the Empire could. And I've been curious about the lornalim for a while.
 
Last edited:
infinityDivided said:
They're not willing to buy ingots forged by humans, though. They're willing to buy ore so that they can process it themselves and they're willing to buy dwarven ingots because duh, but human-forged ingots are too low-quality.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
... Do we know for sure that they don't just refer to human made ingots as ore as an insult? It seems much more efficient to buy even bad ingots and then further refine them than to try and ship raw ore.
 
adaer said:
... Do we know for sure that they don't just refer to human made ingots as ore as an insult?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, it was Mathilde's own observations:
Boney said:
You also speak to them of prices of raw metals, and find that Laurelorn fossickers are able to supply nuggets that are as remarkably pure as they are scarce. They'd likely turn up their nose at any products of the Empire's smelters. Ingots produced by the Dwarves might serve their purposes, but ideally there'd be something the Empire produces that could fulfil the same need.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Boney said:
If the Empire was able to supply suitable ores and flux, then the city would be willing to pay a decent price for them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

adaer said:
It seems much more efficient to buy even bad ingots and then further refine them than to try and ship raw ore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They might be easier to ship, but processed ingots are a lot more expensive than ore. They'd basically being paying far more money for "ore" that they'd have to go through the same process of smelting and refining anyway.
 
It's worth noting that they'd consider dwarven ingots worth the price (even with the high cost even before we start talking about shipping and handling), but dwarven ingots wouldn't need to be laboriously refined the way that human-smelted ingots would. Heck, they might even be of higher quality than anything Laurelorn's smiths could produce.
Boney said:
"What Dwarf worth their beard would export ore to Elves? No, ingots. It's easy enough to get them from Karak Kadrin and the Young Holds to Middenheim, but there's no overland route that would service. Barak Varr to Tor Lithanel is a long route through hard waters for unfinished goods. So we'd need to either secure Nordland's cooperation and ship them from Salzenmund to Tor Lithanel, or hunk them all the way from Wolfenburg to Salkalten."

You nod along, having considered very similar matters yourself. The Empire wouldn't be able to supply metal to Elven standards, but the Dwarves very easily could, though they'd charge a painful price for the privilege. That makes overland routes possible for Dwarven metal where it wasn't for human ore, but that doesn't entirely solve the problems.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Adrian XXIV said:
Btw, What would be reaction of Grey Order's Lord Magisters if Mathilde married Belegar (given that there could be "conflict of interests")?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Honestly, I'd be more interested to know the cult of Sigmar's reaction, but I have a feeling that would be impossible without going back in time and convincing the thread to pick that option.

NexusEye said:
I'd like to note criminalizing suicide and lionizing certain forms of it aren't mutually exclusive, one can criminalize most forms of it yet praise altruistic suicides such as jumping on a grenade to save one's comrades even if it technically violates suicide legislation. Along the same lines it's possible that Dwarf culture may see "regular" suicide from causes such as depression or deep financial ruin as shameful but still see "noble" forms of suicide such as jumping in front of an enemy's strike to save a comrade, a captain going down with their ship, and of course Slayerdom, as something to be admired.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'd like to say that I disagree that suicide and self-sacrifice are the same thing. With suicide, the death is the objective, while with self sacrifice, the death is the means.

That's not to say that the lines can't get blurry (Slayerdom comes to mind) or that self sacrifice is inherently morally superior (there is a biiiiiig discussion needed here, and this thread is not the place, but I do think that, case by case, some cases I would classify as self sacrifice would indeed be nonheroic or even villainous) but I still feel this distinction should be made lest we come to the conclusion that one's being ultimate responsibility is prolonging its life and acting otherwise would be commiting suicide, which is insanity by bad definitions imho.
 
storryeater said:
I'd like to say that I disagree that suicide and self-sacrifice are the same thing. With suicide, the death is the objective, while with self sacrifice, the death is the means.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sometimes an act can have death as both an objective and a means. Take for example the case of Antarctic explorer Lawrence Oates. He willingly walked out of a tent into a blizzard in an act of suicide so that the dwindling supplies the expedition had would last longer for the remaining members and so that he wouldn't slow them down due to his frostbite injuries. In that case death by walking out into the blizzard had death as an immediate goal but that death was also a means to achieve an ultimate goal, the survival of his companions. He would fail unfortunately and the rest of of the expedition still died and we only know of his tale because a search party found the remains of the expedition and recovered a diary with an entry documenting his act. Nonetheless I would argue that his attempt qualified as both a form of suicide and of self-sacrifice, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Andres said:
Source?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A Dwarf named Morek Furrowbrow being Kragg's master is 4th edition Dwarf Armybook. (the sourcing on wiki article on that is accurate)

That a dwarf named Morek Furrowbrow was a companion of Morgrim Elgidum was in the apendix of Master of Dragons (and don't we all love novels as a source :V). He is only mentioned by his full name there, the story only refers to him as Morek. So, you know, very dubious, but it exists.
 
Last edited:
NexusEye said:
Sometimes an act can have death as both an objective and a means. Take for example the case of Antarctic explorer Lawrence Oates. He willingly walked out of a tent into a blizzard in an act of suicide so that the dwindling supplies the expedition had would last longer for the remaining members and so that he wouldn't slow them down due to his frostbite injuries. In that case death by walking out into the blizzard had death as an immediate goal but that death was also a means to achieve an ultimate goal, the survival of his companions. He would fail unfortunately and the rest of of the expedition still died and we only know of his tale because a search party found the remains of the expedition and recovered a diary with an entry documenting his act. Nonetheless I would argue that his attempt qualified as both a form of suicide and of self-sacrifice, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

While I do agree the lines can get blurry and some stuff can qualify as both (Slayers, ritual suicide to wash away family shame) your example seems to me to be firmly in the self sacrifice camp, because the man as you describe him didn't want to die, he accepted death in order to further another (imo heroic and altruistic, but that has no bearing on definition) objective, in this case saving the other men.
 
storryeater said:
While I do agree the lines can get blurry and some stuff can qualify as both (Slayers, ritual suicide to wash away family shame) your example seems to me to be firmly in the self sacrifice camp, because the man as you describe him didn't want to die, he accepted death in order to further another (imo heroic and altruistic, but that has no bearing on definition) objective, in this case saving the other men.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except to me it seems clear he did want to die or else he would have never decided to walk out into the blizzard, he may have also wanted to live but people can have contradictory desires and follow the stronger one even as another part of them screams at them to do the opposite. If he had wanted to live more than he wanted to die in order to save his men he would have stayed with the expedition slowing them down and eating into their limited supplies, likely causing them to have all died sooner.
 
NexusEye said:
Except to me it seems clear he did want to die or else he would have never decided to walk out into the blizzard, he may have also wanted to live but people can have contradictory desires and follow the stronger one even as another part of them screams at them to do the opposite. If he had wanted to live more than he wanted to die in order to save his men he would have stayed with the expedition slowing them down and eating into their limited supplies, likely causing them to have all died sooner.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That is an incredible case of semantics ngl.

He did not want to die. Dying was an acceptable cost/unwanted side effect, not the purpose.
 
MrHobbit said:
I'd like to investigate all the tributaries; they all sound cool. But if we're going to deploy tributaries to Kislev again, I'd prefer to have developed more tributary variants first. There's an Ice Witch variant that should be applicable. If nothing else Zlata deserves a win. But investigating Scythian tributaries would be cool too. They could probably use them better than the Empire could. And I've been curious about the lornalim for a while.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My concern is the AP cost. Prepping a new tributary type is, at minimum, 2 AP (maximum 3), which is pretty hefty when prepping a new Waystone type is 1. Compare:

Tributaries:
  • Investigating a new tributary category (Scythian/Lornalim) is 1 AP, and may produce multiple tributary designs, based on who was assigned to the task and how the rolls go
  • Designs that were theorized as a result of a tributary investigation but not actually made are 1 AP (multiple can be done in parallel)
  • Prototyping a designed tributary is 1 AP (multiple can be done in parallel)
So if you go with a design that was created as a result of the category investigation, it costs 2 AP: if you want a design that was theorized but not actually made, 3. Meanwhile:

Waystones
  • Take the "Build a Waystone" action and vote for a different configuration of parts than the ones we've got, for 1 AP
So it feels like an uphill battle to either investigate the other tributary categories or design further tributaries based on the Belthani investigation and then prototype them when we've got three perfectly good kinds already and we're lacking in diversity for our Waystones. The main argument for doing so is the parallelization possibility: if you design and prototype multiple kinds at once, each individual model is more AP-efficient, which is not true for Waystones. However, that would require there to be multiple designs in the backlog that we're really interested in doing, which I don't think there are? I dunno, maybe people in the thread would secretly be incredibly hype to do a Tributary Design and then a Tributary Prototype action for a Ranaldian/Ice Witch/Teclisean trio of new designs? If that's you, say something I guess, but it's been a few years that those options have been available and I don't remember seeing a lot of hype for them (or for the other two, for that matter, at least once Boney confirmed that outside-of-Karak infrastructure is unlikely to be something the dwarfs want).

Meanwhile, there are a ton of Nexuses we have yet to scout and we've only studied one other Waystone Network at all. I like the idea of giving Zlata a W, don't get me wrong, but I balk at the opportunity cost.
 
picklepikkl said:
My concern is the AP cost. Prepping a new tributary type is, at minimum, 2 AP (maximum 3), which is pretty hefty when prepping a new Waystone type is 1. Compare:

Tributaries:
  • Investigating a new tributary category (Scythian/Lornalim) is 1 AP, and may produce multiple tributary designs, based on who was assigned to the task and how the rolls go
  • Designs that were theorized as a result of a tributary investigation but not actually made are 1 AP (multiple can be done in parallel)
  • Prototyping a designed tributary is 1 AP (multiple can be done in parallel)
So if you go with a design that was created as a result of the category investigation, it costs 2 AP: if you want a design that was theorized but not actually made, 3. Meanwhile:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I agree with you. I don't think it is necessary to investigate the tributary variants. I've said before that it's fine to conclude the product without investigating the Scythian tributaries and the Lornalim. But I still want to still investigate them because I think they're neat. I think it'd be cool if we could get the Bretonnians to develop a variant of the Scythian tributary, potentially using Grail Chapels as tributaries. I want to know what Laurelorn used them for because elves like living in higher magic-dense environments than humans. It'd be neat to get insight into their production and use. But I think the lornalim would be too expensive to deploy much. The Scythian tributary would involve poking the dead to much to deploy in the Empire. So even if we do investigate them, I wouldn't push too hard to develop variants of them.

Though I do think we should at least attempt to produce the non-Ranaldian variants. It would only be a single action to give the Accord members a lot more freedom in tributary deployment. Even more so if we decide to bring the Damsels into the Project. I'll admit that I don't think we are going to bring the Damsels into the Project at this point. What would we have them research? Getting them to research tributary variants isn't worth it.
 
Last edited:
pucflek said:
That is an incredible case of semantics ngl.

He did not want to die. Dying was an acceptable cost/unwanted side effect, not the purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And lots of people who commit suicide don't want to die, they just don't want to keep on living anymore. When someone is suicidal their self-preservation instinct doesn't vanish, it's screaming at them to stop while they're preparing to commit the suicidal act, it's just overridden by the part of their mind that doesn't want to live through another day of misery. As David Foster Wallace put it in his book the Infinite Jest better than I ever could:
"The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."
If a person possessing a desire to not die while carrying out an act which will kill themselves disqualifies that act from being called suicide then almost every time in history a person has ever intentionally killed themselves was not a suicide.
 
Boney said:
what do you actually know about the Lizardmen? The answer is shockingly little, and what you do know can be interpreted through various different lenses to get a very different picture of them as a whole.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I know this has almost certainly been discussed, but while doing some rereading i realized that yeah, we have literally no books about lizardfolk or more generally lustria, and i'm curious if this is a case where we've checked and we don't have access to purchase any without going to the asur (or *maybe* some basic geography:lustria books that we'd need to get in touch with whatever actual Imperial institutions manage swamp town?), or just a case like with beastmen where we could get (some amount of) books on them we just haven't?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top