Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Oddly enough, 8th edition Dwarfs has both Morgrim, son of Grungni, and Morgrim, son of Grimnir.
Lot of Morgrims out there.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
They're every eight years, not every six years -- the next one will be in the second half of 2494, which is T50. We are currently wrapping up T44, so there's a while to go, and who knows what we might be up to six turns from now?
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Silk
[X] Karak Vlag books
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Silk
[X] Karak Vlag books
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'm actually on the side that says the vortex falling would not end the world. I think the fact there are other gods would make the difference; if Ulric and sigmar and the others gain power with the increase in magic at the same rate as the chaos gods, then it would just stay a stalemate as the light shows at the battles get bigger.
Plus, one mortal made the vortex. A second could make another. There's no reason that the old heroes can't be exceeded except the mental blocks that come from regarding the present as a degraded and diminished time.
It would be fascinating to see see a dwarf culture based on alchemy and brewing and distillation instead of iron and stone. I wonder if you could set up a group of dwarves that did not follow the ancestor gods north when the whatever-it-was that created the ancestor gods and wiped out the history of before
I'd like to read that too; are you willing to write any of it? Ill write the second snip if you write the first.
Plus, one mortal made the vortex. A second could make another. There's no reason that the old heroes can't be exceeded except the mental blocks that come from regarding the present as a degraded and diminished time.
It would be fascinating to see see a dwarf culture based on alchemy and brewing and distillation instead of iron and stone. I wonder if you could set up a group of dwarves that did not follow the ancestor gods north when the whatever-it-was that created the ancestor gods and wiped out the history of before
I'd like to read that too; are you willing to write any of it? Ill write the second snip if you write the first.
- Location
- Finland
I'm not sure the non chaos gods gain power at same rate as chaos gods if/when realm of chaos starts to intrude on the world.
That feels like a pretty big assumption, that the chaos wastes strongly suggest to be untrue.
Also, saying "one mortal made the vortex" is, technicly accurate (if you ignore all the people who were helping him), but damn does it leave lot out.
Now, it is not impossible that people of the current world would be able to do something to replace the Vortex, but it would be the workd of decades, centuries, if it was possible at all, by which time it could already be too late.
And any plan that relies on "we just need a second Caledor Dragontamer", feels somewhat risky.
That feels like a pretty big assumption, that the chaos wastes strongly suggest to be untrue.
Also, saying "one mortal made the vortex" is, technicly accurate (if you ignore all the people who were helping him), but damn does it leave lot out.
Now, it is not impossible that people of the current world would be able to do something to replace the Vortex, but it would be the workd of decades, centuries, if it was possible at all, by which time it could already be too late.
And any plan that relies on "we just need a second Caledor Dragontamer", feels somewhat risky.
Blackout
Fed By Comments
- Location
- Who knows?
There were gods on the side of Order last time around too, and they were still losing. No infinitely respawning hordes of Order-Daemons, then or now.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Luckily the Empire authorities can rest easy, reassured that Mathilde and her Project collaborators would be on the case.
- Location
- Canada
[X] Skull River Ambush
[X] Silk
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Silk
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Pan's Treehouse
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If the Vortex ever falls apart, I imagine it's an all-hands-on-deck situation for rerouting the existing energies of the Empire to either the Karaz Ankor network or the Kislev network. Maybe Bretonnia would try to do what Kislev did and have the Lady form her own mini-vortex? Or maybe they'd pass on the energy to Athel Loren? Estalia and Tilea might need to pour their energy there, too - or maybe the Skaven would try to openly take those nexuses.
Cathay probably has its own network, they might be fine, or fine-ish. If Nehekhara has their own way of spending or purifying all that Dhar safely, they're probably fine and Araby's hypothetical nexuses connect there.
So... Who knows! Maybe it wouldn't be the end of the world.
But it probably is the end of Ulthuan, and them being gone would make things harder for everyone else.
I think the dwarfs venerating their ancestors and claiming "well, Belegar's grandpa and dad created Belegar, in the end" is actually pretty good. Even though the worship of the past and ancestors is a bit too much sometimes, dwarfs objectively acknowledge the material conditions that led to the present circumstances, which is necessary to build a better world and preserve their rock-steady society.
Belegar did need his grandpa and dad to become the person he was. His education, his training, their sheltering of him, their love for him, his armor, his Hammer - these are the gifts that are left by people who worry about the future of their children, and in part what led him to succeed. If the only thing he'd had was the name of Angrund and the heartfelt desire to reclaim Karak Eight Peaks, and nothing else... Well, maybe he would have embarked on an epic journey to recover his hammer, and maybe he'd survive long enough to do so, claim a name for himself, become good at fighting and leading and maybe organizing people... But it would have been a more painful journey, probably, if he made it at all.
Hardly anyone can truly be a truly self-made man or woman. Mathilde might not have had parents who valued her more than they feared magic, but she had the Colleges, which I'm certain she would readily claim are the predecessors she would prefer to claim, the ones that helped mold her into her current shape. Teclis and Magnus - these are the College's dads! Similarly with Regimand - he may not have taught Mathilde as much as we're teaching Eike in raw skills, but a good part of her narration and caution and presumably raw stats at the start of the quest come from his lessons - lessons she didn't always heed, but still.
...If you ask me, I'd say that the bigger mark against the dwarfs' worship of the past is that they hardly acknowledge the time before the Ancestor Gods. What sort of material conditions and circumstances led to the Ancestor Gods, I wonder? We have our theories from what Borek told us, of course, but nothing truly solid.
Perhaps if the dwarfs widely acknowledge what led to the Ancestor Gods breaking out of their 'prison', they wouldn't have ever reached the heights they did - the past can be a heavy chain sometimes. You need a strong identity to survive, and there's hardly a better slate for forging a new one than erasing the old one. Perhaps the Ancestor Gods felt their past was one they could live without, hence why the beginning of the Karaz Ankor's history is the founding of Karaz-a-Karak.
Cathay probably has its own network, they might be fine, or fine-ish. If Nehekhara has their own way of spending or purifying all that Dhar safely, they're probably fine and Araby's hypothetical nexuses connect there.
So... Who knows! Maybe it wouldn't be the end of the world.
But it probably is the end of Ulthuan, and them being gone would make things harder for everyone else.
I think the dwarfs venerating their ancestors and claiming "well, Belegar's grandpa and dad created Belegar, in the end" is actually pretty good. Even though the worship of the past and ancestors is a bit too much sometimes, dwarfs objectively acknowledge the material conditions that led to the present circumstances, which is necessary to build a better world and preserve their rock-steady society.
Belegar did need his grandpa and dad to become the person he was. His education, his training, their sheltering of him, their love for him, his armor, his Hammer - these are the gifts that are left by people who worry about the future of their children, and in part what led him to succeed. If the only thing he'd had was the name of Angrund and the heartfelt desire to reclaim Karak Eight Peaks, and nothing else... Well, maybe he would have embarked on an epic journey to recover his hammer, and maybe he'd survive long enough to do so, claim a name for himself, become good at fighting and leading and maybe organizing people... But it would have been a more painful journey, probably, if he made it at all.
Hardly anyone can truly be a truly self-made man or woman. Mathilde might not have had parents who valued her more than they feared magic, but she had the Colleges, which I'm certain she would readily claim are the predecessors she would prefer to claim, the ones that helped mold her into her current shape. Teclis and Magnus - these are the College's dads! Similarly with Regimand - he may not have taught Mathilde as much as we're teaching Eike in raw skills, but a good part of her narration and caution and presumably raw stats at the start of the quest come from his lessons - lessons she didn't always heed, but still.
...If you ask me, I'd say that the bigger mark against the dwarfs' worship of the past is that they hardly acknowledge the time before the Ancestor Gods. What sort of material conditions and circumstances led to the Ancestor Gods, I wonder? We have our theories from what Borek told us, of course, but nothing truly solid.
Perhaps if the dwarfs widely acknowledge what led to the Ancestor Gods breaking out of their 'prison', they wouldn't have ever reached the heights they did - the past can be a heavy chain sometimes. You need a strong identity to survive, and there's hardly a better slate for forging a new one than erasing the old one. Perhaps the Ancestor Gods felt their past was one they could live without, hence why the beginning of the Karaz Ankor's history is the founding of Karaz-a-Karak.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
The gods are irrelevant. The unstoppable tide of daemons that keep coming back would kill everyone eventually.
An entire cadre of High Mages led by one of the most brilliant spellcasters ever born, with access to now-lost knowledge barely pulled it off last time. Would it be possible to do again? Probably, yes. Is it at all worth counting on? Absolutely not.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
If Ulthuan is floating on the ocean and held only thanks to the power provided by the Network, a collapse of the Vortex would cause Ulthuan to sink. Having an entire continent sinking into the ocean would create a mega tsunami. At the very least, all the Old World except from some parts of the Empire would be washed clean of all life, as well as most of Lustria, Araby and Nehekhara. With the extinction of Kislev, the Empire, the High Elves, the Lizardmen and Bretonnia, the world would be doomed anyway because there would be no one left to stop Choas in those regions.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/They
Video unavailable. (Not even "in my region", just unavailable straight-up.)
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't put it past Manaan to say 'fuck off' to a giant tsunami that might kill the majority of his worshipers and downgrade it to a horrible-but-still-survivable tsunami.
Assuming some kind of Dwarfy aesthetics... perhaps a focus on chemistry of some sort? Chemistry and alchemy -- and metallurgy too at times. Perhaps there might be some commonalities or convergent evolution would see things similar to Skaven or Dawi Zharr artifice? In the sense of "using potions and alchemy to create or empower biological, or mechanical, constructs", that is.
Far more fuel-based stuff perhaps. The machinery of war and civilization, fed by some kind of precious or secret material or product of the dwarfs.
Or perhaps we'd see tons of aqueducts goddamn everywhere like it's Rome.
I don't write fiction. I don't post too much anymore nowadays either, lurking more, for that matter.
Hmm... What would be a viable replacement for the Great Vortex?
Well... What about the Great Maw?
It's either Lavos in which case it's a space-monster called up by the Cathayan Dragons like how the other Dragons called up the Old Ones to the world, or it's some kind of Old One satellite construct that probably ran on Azyr to either terraform the land or manage the weather of the Ogre lands and/or order about or slowly uplift the Ogres or something.
Either way, it's really good at consuming things, and so could probably take in all the Winds of Magic of the world.
And depending on how it's digestion system works, perhaps it even enriches the earth as it consumes and digests things?
Other than that, I'm sure the Skaven would love to be be able to pull off a Great Vortex of their own. Perhaps they might be one of the few peoples that could do something like that; after all, there's some uncertain backstory that at the same time the Slann re-ordered the continental plates, the Skaven were using some sort of machine to do something; and it was the combination of these two factors that set off volcanoes and shattered the Dwarf Underway. So clearly the Skaven are capable of Some Shit, and their God has access to some Deep Lore. They're also not lacking for hubris.
There's other End-of-the-World type scenarios we might theorize, about how people might try to replace or make use of the lack of the Great Vortex. Nagash and some other great ritual or form of stasis. Malekith and Morathi might try their own ritual or something. The Slann might try something. The Cathayans. Who knows. Athel Loren might try to absorb all the energy using the Oak of Ages perhaps?
... Part of the challenge might be that everybody might be trying to do these things all at once, and it'd be chaos (and Chaos) as all these attempts went off. Maybe that was why the Great Vortex was uniquely successful; it connected to the underlying Old One system of waystones and leylines already, and it thus made use of everyone else's efforts at the time, rather than everybody else having tons of different great plans and ploys going on. A one-size-fits-all solution that more or less worked, basically.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Caldedor Dragontamer was one the best mage ever produced by the species who has the second best mages in the world. He had access to the lore the Asurs have lost, and the help of the best and brightest of their mages. And it was still a near thing. I guess that a second Vortex could theoretically be made, but counting on it is foolish in the extreme.
That's assuming he's strong enough to do so. We're speaking of a wave likely hundreds of meters tall.
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SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's such an absurd mentality that I can't help but get a headache trying to make sense of it. It's one thing where you can't realistically teach everything you know to your apprentice due to lack of time or difficulties of translating your knowledge across different forms of Magesight, but to deliberately refuse to teach your own chosen apprentices as much as opportunity allows out of sheer perfectionism and what I can only call sheer selfish pride is just unbelievably petty and stupid.
There isn't even the excuse that learning magic too advanced or powerful before you're strong enough to handle it is extremely dangerous--runecraft lacks that kind of risk. And in the worst case, you can always teach the more advanced stuff you know to non-apprentices.
The Colleges showcase how a sane mentality is vastly superior: not only is the corpus of spell knowledge always increasing, it's regularly taught to a lot of people who are willing and able to learn and churning out a large number of highly capable spellcasters as a result. Melkoth taught Mathilde, a solid magister at the time, his signature spell and she used it to good effect in the field not long after. Mathilde invented a new battle magic level spell and proceeded to share that spell with the entire rest of the college, where battle wizards learned it on their own and used it in the field.
It's alarming that the Runesmiths Guild hasn't adapted yet to its massive decline and its obvious causes. By the time they finally do, it might just be that the craft has hit almost rock-bottom. Thorek at least teaches an entire herd of apprentices to at least provide respectable quantity to the profession, but Kragg making little time for apprentices despite being one of the best of his craft seems so wasteful.
At least the Karaz Ankor's engineering guilds seem to be worlds better; they're limited more by resource and time constraints than stubborn, selfish pride and perfectionism. Their field is continuously advancing rather than declining.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
That's why we supported wholeheartedly Thorek's efforts to reform the Runesmiths' guild. Its rules are stupid and will inevitably lead to the extinction of runecraft.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So? We're also talking about a major god, here. One myth about Manann is that he made the Sea of Claws to drown the forces of Chaos when the first attacked the world, and one cult in 2e canon believes that Manann will eventually send a giant tide that will drown or half-drown the Old World - a splinter of that cult decided to start building a giant ark in the Middle Mountains.
(Yes, we know that Eltharion assumes that Albion was the one who carved out the Sea of Claws with super-weaponry or something, but honestly, who's to say that that super-weaponry wasn't directing a god to doing something - one of the Old Ones putting on their Divine Interface to act as Manann?)
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Because time is a flat circle, this discussion has been had before, and here are some QM posts on the topic.
(It's been three and a half years since this discussion, but I remember it very vividly because Boney's statements echo a lot of feelings I've had when I look at myself: some of my greatest personal strengths and greatest personal flaws are in fact just the same thing in adaptive vs. maladaptive contexts. I can work to mitigate the negative effects, but if I didn't have the flaw, I wouldn't have the strength either, and I'd be a very different person.)
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
So? It's not impossible he could do so, we don't know and we shouldn't assume he could.