Just because I understand a mindset and like to role-play doesn't mean I think it's good. I think we should be accommodating to the culture of the Karaz Ankor for a variety of reasons ranging from IC views of Mathide to practical concerns, I also think has some deep flaws. Think of my perspective on the Karaz Ankor as akin to Cython, it is impressive that they have done all the things they did with the poor hand that fate dealt them, but it's sill tragically ironic that they have reacted to being saved by rebels and innovators (the Ancestor Gods) in their hour of need by stigmatizing rebelion and innovation
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Just because I understand a mindset and like to role-play doesn't mean I think it's good. I think we should be accommodating to the culture of the Karaz Ankor for a variety of reasons ranging from IC views of Mathide to practical concerns, I also think has some deep flaws. Think of my perspective on the Karaz Ankor as akin to Cython, it is impressive that they have done all the things they did with the poor hand that fate dealt them, but it's sill tragically ironic that they have reacted to being saved by rebels and innovators (the Ancestor Gods) in their hour of need by stigmatizing rebelion and innovation
Yeah, Belegar felt a boatload of shame because while he succeeded, he did not succeed in the way and method that he was supposed to succeed in. And that brought him shame. (And the methods do matter. They do, or ought to, contribute to virtuous action and virtuous results.)
Because the "how a thing was done" forms the "what is done/accomplished"; and Belegar felt that less-than-honorable means, resulted in a less than honorable result. So just telling him that he did something good and honorable, didn't work so great; because in his eyes, the "how" was important, the methods and not just the results were important.
This is a mindset good for virtue, and good for personal responsibility. And personal responsibility is good because it encourages virtue.
It's also a mindset that self-flagellates a lot, too. Sooo.
On the other hand, Belegar's troubles weren't totally of his making or of the methods he used; it was also in part added on to circumstances like this-or-that traditional Dawi not supporting him, or the rift with the High King.
The rift with the High King, beyond it not winding up sending aid to the Karak Eight Peaks, also might have made Belegar feel like he was failing to walk in his Ancestor's footsteps. That's an inadvertent and accidental thing. Thorgrim didn't want to make Belegar feel like a failure as a side-effect. Same with how Thorgrim's remarks back in the early initial reconquest of the Eight Peaks, backfired and cheesed off Belegar. Thorgrim said things from a perspective and mindset that made sense to him, but was dismissive and insulting to Belegar. Unfortunate circumstances.
Perhaps every little bit or event where your culture's hoariest and most traditional people didn't approve of you... sunk in his craw.
Which you could use to point to at as the failure of tradition, or of traditional Dwarfs...
... Except. Karaz-a-Karak isn't supposed to be like this. It's like this because of the Skendanbryn, the Stolen Hope. It's like this because of Thorgrimm's depressive fugue/minset, and Thorgrimm's depressive mindset is because the Dawi lost Vlag and Dum and the energy ticker started counting down as a literal doom-timer.
You could interpret that as yet one more notch on the belt of "It isn't the Dawi making themselves miserable; it's the world kicking them down" theory.
Now granted, depending on your perspective you can immediately shift to blaming them/their culture and going "Ah but if they were different or were more flexible, they could have acted in a way that fixed their problems instead, and so they wouldn't be in this situation." But that's a matter of perspective and disagreement.
It might also be a matter of sheer... well. Fortune.
Karak Eight Peaks absolutely did not have to be successfully reconquered.
Just being unconventional and sneaky and stuff, did not necessarily have to lead to a successful reconquest. Everything we accomplished wound up being due to all the things we did; the chain of causality is strong. But... Victory ultimately laid in chance. And it laid in decisions that were sometimes tactical or strategic, rather than just because they were unconventional. In short, sometimes we won because we made the right military decision at the time, or because we unknowingly made the right strategic move that paid off in a big way in a way we didn't expect. Or put us into a situation where we'd be able to profit from it. And tradition and the strong bonds of the Karaz Ankor also had a lot to say for it too; without the Karaz Ankor and the Dwarf-Man alliance, how easy would it have been to draw a bunch of disparate dwarfs and humans to Karak Eight Peaks? Our possibility-space was possible because of all those things that everybody else did.
Sometimes, the future or present is inextricable from the past. But it can be easy to only see the present, only see your success. That's why it's important to study, understand, or glory the past too. Because if you don't see and understand where you came from, then you won't understand how you got here. And if you don't understand how you got here or how things were possible, then you won't have a good picture or model for the future; you won't be able to understand how or why people act or are the way that they are.
Yeah, but unlike smashing your head into a wall over and over trying something new when you are stuck at least has that chance at success. You boxed yourself into arguing against the very concept of progress.
Adrian XXIV
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The Dwarves have been more reliable allies of the Empire than any other people or institution inside or outside of the Empire. There is no interest less conflicted.
It's worth remembering that both Malkeith and Morathi know for absolute certain that the existence of the world is not dependent on the existence of the Vortex.
Both pre-date it, and the world very much existed then. In Morathi's case, she lived for millennia between the fall of the warp gates and creation of the Vortex.
It took thousands of years without a Vortex or Voetex equivalent for the world to come under major threat of being defeated by Chaos - and even right up until the end the Elven Pantheon appears to have been opposed to the creation of the Vortex. They, have their anointed representative, thought that the world could somehow survive and they and their elven worshippers could stalemate Chaos because all the gods would be empowered by the high magic levels, not just the Chaos Gods.
Caledor made the Vortex, and the elves 'won' that way, and history was written to say that was an essential step towards some form of victory. Malkeith may not agree. He may agree with his father and with Asuryan that victory over the Chaos Gods is possible in the absence of the Vortex, that, say the elves can use the gradual increase in the ambient magic levels that will occur without the Vortex to empower themselves faster than it will empower Chaos.
Now, he's probably wrong, but I think that he's axiomatically wrong. Destroying the Vortex shouldn't lead to an immediate Chaos victory. It just returns the situation to be similar to what it was in the period after the warp gates fell but before enough centuries had passed to increase magic levels enough to allow daemons to spontaneously manifest.
That's quite a standard way for revolutionaries to act though, to very strongly suppress attempts to replace them or their preferences. After all, they now know revolution is possible and how it's done, so probably have a better idea of how to suppress it.
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Chaos now and Chaos then are not the same beast. Daemons may be the same but the sheer weight of Champions empowered in a Vortex-less world would quickly overwhelm the weakened protections of everyone else never mind the dark elves alone.
There seem to have been plenty of empowered Champions in the pre-Vortex World, between Fimir who hadn't been abandoned by the gods, Dragon Ogres, and the early human tribes who were corrupted in this period.
NexusEye
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True but it will still take time for there to be enough magic for Daemons to walk freely outside the Chaos Wastes again, if the Vortex falls the world will follow but that isn't an axiomatic truth, it's a truth caused by the circumstances the world is currently in right now and Malekith and Morathi may delude themselves into thinking they could come up with a plan to use all that accumulating magical energy to survive in a world without the Vortex. They'd be wrong but they might still believe it because there was a time when it was possible to survive without the Vortex, they simply haven't realized that time has long past.
The Old Ones can just killed large portions of the populations of the former and the latter had a very small population density mostly around the tropics. You didn't have six thousand years of Champions, monsters, Chaos Dragons and what have you at the poles.
K von Carstein
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They know not such thing, them of all people would know how bad it would become without the Vortex.
Do you have sources for the opinions of the eleven gods? And given how the elves were faring, the gods were obviously wrong in thei assessment.
So that delays the destruction of the world by a few centuries, that's really comforting.
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World does not immediately poof out of existence of the vortex falls.
That does not mean the world is not dependent on the vortex for its survival.
Drowning takes time, just becuse cutting the air supply of a deep sea diver does not instantly kill them does not mean they do not need air.
That does not mean the world is not dependent on the vortex for its survival.
Drowning takes time, just becuse cutting the air supply of a deep sea diver does not instantly kill them does not mean they do not need air.
NexusEye
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True although I would use the analogy that a ship(world) with holes(the Chaos Gates) leaking water(magic) into it does not immediately sink if the bilge pump(the Vortex) stops working but will still sink eventually and inevitably, and if there are people deluded enough to think they can tread water forever after the boat sinks(Malekith and Morathi) they may be willing to deactivate the pump if they believe doing so will benefit them in some way.
Yeah, but I don't agree with the Dwarf values either. I dunno if I'd want to live in Dwarf society ((but then, I dunno if I'd want to live in the Empire either; or in Warhammer in general I guess)).
That is, I don't look at everything they do and think "That is good". I just accept or understand it, or try to reframe it into my own context or perspective, and try to analogize. ((You do too I guess, but, like... in a different way. Your method mostly just seems like it very straightforwardly goes "They did a bad thing or had a bad result, so it was bad." "Suffering happened, so this was a bad idea/mindset." ... My words are failing me here, because I didn't manage to get across in this what I meant...))
I get a lot of "I suppose X thing of the Dwarfs is like Y thing of our's?"
Like, as one example, the Slayer cult. You probably look at that and go "Their religion enshrines suicide? That's fucked, man. They shouldn't do that." I look at that and go; "So under some circumstances, Dawi become suicidal, huh? And this is how they express that or try to deal with it or channel it. And, hm, so the Slayer Cult must be a cultural and religious practice or custom that touches upon themes and feelings of suicide, and sacrifice."
You probably go "If the religion were different, they wouldn't suicide. Presumably if you change the religion, then the suicides would stop, right?", I guess?
Whereas to me, the idea is a bit like if you were to make laws against suicide and try to enforce them and try to prosecute people for that. It probably would not be a functional legislation. There already are values and customs against the mindset and practice; suicide is what happens when those values, customs, communities, families, and individual circumstances don't wind up preventing that. Look, they're becoming Slayers because life sucks. Their religion and culture has a way of dealing with or touching upon suicide/martyrdom/sacrifice.
Their religion and culture and way of life can also cause Slayerhood, yes, but that's not something you can get away from -- every society and culture is going to put stressors on people and wind up with such things! Life and culture is a source of stress; you can't separate that from life because... life just is. You can't just outlaw the bad parts of life or the human condition and declare the problem solved. If it were doable like that, we would have already done that. In fact from a certain perspective we already do that; that's what some people think laws or the justice system are in some societies; not an attempt to enforce power or conformity, but an attempt to right things and prevent dysfunction or evil.
My point is that this is falling into... I guess confirmation bias? Success bias?
"We succeeded and we did so in a new way, therefore the old ways were bad." That's a bit too pat.
Especially because, the issue is, your own perspective ignores the parts of the victory that were due to traditionalism or orthodoxy.
When you think you solved every problem with unorthodox thinking, orthodoxy feels worthless. That is why I clash with you on these things. Because I feel you overlook the culture of the peoples involved because the culture is like air or water.
Thorgrim didn't send aid to Karak Eight Peaks in the climactic moment. Was that a 'traditional' decision? Or was it an unorthodox or radical decision -- the High King deciding that since it is impossible to live in the Karaz Ankor, to keep the Karaz Ankor living, the best you can do is try to strike out as many grudges as possible and thus feel as much comfort in your twilight years as possible? But he did raise Belegar. And Kragg the Grim, came along to the expedition.
And King Kazador came to Karak Eight Peaks; was that a 'traditional' decision? It was certainly a dramatic and epic Dwarfy one. A king of a Karak helped reclaim another Karak; a near mythical one. Think about that again; a head of state, a sovereign monarch, put his own ass on the line and marched straight into a battlefield that included Skaven, Goblins, and a fucking Emperor Dragon. And when everything erupted, his reaction was (IIRC?) to vibrate with excitement. A lot of that was due to Karak Azul's own well-being of course; if Eight Peaks is reconquered, then Azul gets to rejoin the rest of the Karaz Ankor. Azul gets a friendly neighbor. There is so much potential good there. But the potential good that could have come of it, does not ignore the risks inherent with a monarch deciding to head to a freaking war. And, was this a radical or a traditional decision? After all, when Kazador was making the decision, part of what made it for him was "My fellow King is doing this" and "The Karaz Ankor is being expanded and reclaimed and defended by this"; those are things that speak to tradition and are motivators of tradition. The cohesion (such as it is) of the Karaz Ankor is due to the actions of the Ancestor Gods, as well as the High Kings that tried to keep the Karaz Ankor together. Tried to keep recording things in the Great Book of Grudges, so that all those other Dwarf Kings will feel that even if they fall, the Karaz-A-Karak will eventually avenge them or right their wrongs.
... Honestly, after typing all this, I just felt more hyped for King Kazador and Karak Azul all the more.
Like. I want to read a dozen updates about what things are like in Karak Azul as a result of this; I want to hear all about how the Azulites re-entering the Karaz Ankor has affected the Karaz Ankor.
I want to read a history book about the reemergence of Karak Azul into the Karaz Ankor. I want to hear personal stories and narratives of the Karaz Ankor dwarfs as they meet the Azulites again, and vice versa.
This deed of ours has thrown a shockwave into Dwarf society and history, as well as the many interpersonal stories of many of the Dawi of the Karaz Ankor. How has that changed the world?
Hell, how has Barak Varr been changed by all this?
They bankrolled an absurd pie-in-the-sky dream... and it paid off. It paid off in spades. In paid off in a canal. It paid off in a canal by Karak Kadrin too! It paid off in a canal in fucking Kislev of all things! Everything's coming up Grundadrakk! And pretty soon things will be coming up Zhufbar and Varr too, with the Waystones surrounding Crag Mere and draining the foulness there. Kazador has been more of a presence to Mathilde than has the King of Barak Varr, but I wonder how things are like for Varr? And Zhufbar. Seeing them again during the Mining Mt. Drakenhoff was fun; that brief moment of "Man, when we helped Mathilde, we did not expect all this to come of that..." was amazing.
All that came about because some Zhufbar throng decided to march with Stirland; and to come to the aid of its Elector count and his spymaster; and to counsel her with a Barazul. Man, how personal stories and history can unfold from simple things like that.
This is too long for me to reply point by point right now, but I wills say this there is value in having confidence in one's own beliefs. By all means examine them especially if and when they are challenged, but if one does that to excess they lose all persuasive power of and in extremis one might be left without the capacity for action.
One more thing, there is a difference between not criminalizing suicide (a thing which several cultures have done in the course of human history) and lionizing suicide in the service of the wider society (a thing which several other societies have done). I would argue that both of them are harmful, but refusing to partake in the latter does not necessarily lead to the former, nor the reverse.
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[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Orb Reveal
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[X] Reading on Nehekhara
I'm sorry Pan, but the call of Nehekhara is stronger. I'm sure you'll win anyway though.
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Silk
[X] Karak Vlag books
[X] Reading on Nehekhara
I'm sorry Pan, but the call of Nehekhara is stronger. I'm sure you'll win anyway though.
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Morati and Malekith might genuinly not know how bad the great Cataclysm was though, to be fair. Most accounts seem to agree that it was the Slann and Chaos duking it out for a couple of centuries before it even started touching other parts of the world, when the Slann had been attrition enough over time, that the Chaos had the means to be like "Yeah, we can send a few stranglers over here and there".
Which means that Malekith might be making his "Yeah, we can survive a no vortex world", because he's basing his plan on the few Strangler demons that the Elves faced, rather then the veritable "There's demon's everywhereeee", that the Lizardmen was facing. Sure, in the aftermath they might find out that the Lizardmen was fighting Chaos, but the Slann don't seem like the kind of guy to be like "Yeah, we faced of Chaos for like centuries alone". So Malekith might reason out that "Yeah scary frog men probally fought Chaos", but not the true extend of it.
Which means Malekith can make what's a reasonable point for him, that taking out the Vortex won't be that bad. Because unlike us in the thread, most people there won't have the full knowledge of how everything went down in the setting.
Of course, by the same token the world is radically different from when the Great Cataclysm went down. Sure, the Slann are a Shadow compared to what they were in their prime, but by the same token? The entire world is so much stronger.
The Entire Chaos incursion, was just the Slann alone fighting Chaos for centuries, untill Caldor came in at the last second to MVP clutch it in for the Order Team. Today, that's a very differnet story, if Chaos electric invasion 2.0 Started.
In the original Incursion, while Chaos had the means of summoning armies again and again, the fact they couldnt' swarm the entire world at once, means that even with the Polar Gates open, they were still limited by the amount they could summon at a time, even if they could keep on re-summoning that amount no issues.
Which means that throwing all that on the Lizardmen, the only real opposition at the time, was really easy, but the centers of power in the curret state is very differnet.
Kislev and the Empire of man, Bretonia all exist with their own magical traditions and armies. The entire old world section the Demons could ignore before, now got active participants that presumely won't be that happy about all the Demons invading the world, and those nations all got Wizards to some degree's that would start working on Vortext project 2.0 moment shit goes down.
The Dawi spendt the entire original Incursions doing nothing except sending one guy. An extreme murderblender of a guy, sure but still just one guy. The Dawi now are an entire empire, that while pressed at points, would also start to naturally oppose the demons of Chaos, with a very a strong anti-chaos build.
I'm not too familiar with how Cathay was in the incrusions, but Cathay didn't have their giant magical wall, didn't have their ying and yang wizards, nor magical dragons running around. That's one of the biggest nations around the globe, that now also got giant magical infastructure, and the motive to start opposing Chaos.
The Elves exist as well, and while both Elves and Dawi are not in their golden age, it should be noted they only achived that golden age in the aftermath of the Vortex. At the time of it's creation, during the incursion, they were more akin to a bronze age. Which means both Elven and Dawi knowledge, would be a lot better in terms of what they can do to oppose now, then in the past.
And, for both Malekith and the Fire dwarves, a pure chaos victory would be kinda bad for them, and not something they'd probally be super happy with, so they would also feel the pressure to try and at least oppose chaos to some degree, even if not as much as the forces of Order would do.
Which means, that huge amount of demons Chaos could summon, can no longer be consencrated into one giant deathball, and thrown at just the Slann. Because now, due to all these nations that now exist, they would need to spread them out, lest they are giving one part of the world the time to just work on "How do we get rid of all this magic", which is how they originally lost. Except, by spreading them out, they are also not hitting any nations as hard.
Of course, Chaos would still be an extremly huge problem, because they do still have an infinite amount of respawning armies. But, the World might genuinly be a lot better equiped to handle a chaos incursion 2.0
Which means that Malekith might be making his "Yeah, we can survive a no vortex world", because he's basing his plan on the few Strangler demons that the Elves faced, rather then the veritable "There's demon's everywhereeee", that the Lizardmen was facing. Sure, in the aftermath they might find out that the Lizardmen was fighting Chaos, but the Slann don't seem like the kind of guy to be like "Yeah, we faced of Chaos for like centuries alone". So Malekith might reason out that "Yeah scary frog men probally fought Chaos", but not the true extend of it.
Which means Malekith can make what's a reasonable point for him, that taking out the Vortex won't be that bad. Because unlike us in the thread, most people there won't have the full knowledge of how everything went down in the setting.
Of course, by the same token the world is radically different from when the Great Cataclysm went down. Sure, the Slann are a Shadow compared to what they were in their prime, but by the same token? The entire world is so much stronger.
The Entire Chaos incursion, was just the Slann alone fighting Chaos for centuries, untill Caldor came in at the last second to MVP clutch it in for the Order Team. Today, that's a very differnet story, if Chaos electric invasion 2.0 Started.
In the original Incursion, while Chaos had the means of summoning armies again and again, the fact they couldnt' swarm the entire world at once, means that even with the Polar Gates open, they were still limited by the amount they could summon at a time, even if they could keep on re-summoning that amount no issues.
Which means that throwing all that on the Lizardmen, the only real opposition at the time, was really easy, but the centers of power in the curret state is very differnet.
Kislev and the Empire of man, Bretonia all exist with their own magical traditions and armies. The entire old world section the Demons could ignore before, now got active participants that presumely won't be that happy about all the Demons invading the world, and those nations all got Wizards to some degree's that would start working on Vortext project 2.0 moment shit goes down.
The Dawi spendt the entire original Incursions doing nothing except sending one guy. An extreme murderblender of a guy, sure but still just one guy. The Dawi now are an entire empire, that while pressed at points, would also start to naturally oppose the demons of Chaos, with a very a strong anti-chaos build.
I'm not too familiar with how Cathay was in the incrusions, but Cathay didn't have their giant magical wall, didn't have their ying and yang wizards, nor magical dragons running around. That's one of the biggest nations around the globe, that now also got giant magical infastructure, and the motive to start opposing Chaos.
The Elves exist as well, and while both Elves and Dawi are not in their golden age, it should be noted they only achived that golden age in the aftermath of the Vortex. At the time of it's creation, during the incursion, they were more akin to a bronze age. Which means both Elven and Dawi knowledge, would be a lot better in terms of what they can do to oppose now, then in the past.
And, for both Malekith and the Fire dwarves, a pure chaos victory would be kinda bad for them, and not something they'd probally be super happy with, so they would also feel the pressure to try and at least oppose chaos to some degree, even if not as much as the forces of Order would do.
Which means, that huge amount of demons Chaos could summon, can no longer be consencrated into one giant deathball, and thrown at just the Slann. Because now, due to all these nations that now exist, they would need to spread them out, lest they are giving one part of the world the time to just work on "How do we get rid of all this magic", which is how they originally lost. Except, by spreading them out, they are also not hitting any nations as hard.
Of course, Chaos would still be an extremly huge problem, because they do still have an infinite amount of respawning armies. But, the World might genuinly be a lot better equiped to handle a chaos incursion 2.0
NexusEye
Aspiring God
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I'd like to note criminalizing suicide and lionizing certain forms of it aren't mutually exclusive, one can criminalize most forms of it yet praise altruistic suicides such as jumping on a grenade to save one's comrades even if it technically violates suicide legislation. Along the same lines it's possible that Dwarf culture may see "regular" suicide from causes such as depression or deep financial ruin as shameful but still see "noble" forms of suicide such as jumping in front of an enemy's strike to save a comrade, a captain going down with their ship, and of course Slayerdom, as something to be admired.
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Malekith was a child during the incursion. He remembers the endless tide. He is responsible for the Druchii's militarism, in the hopes of having an army strong enough to fight. And the vision from the Circlet of Iron was him basically mastering chaos and weaponizing it against itself.
The same kind of vision Mathilde recieved from the Chalice.
Except he was actually arrogant/powerful enough to believe he could do it.
Morathi knows. She was there before the incursion, and was laughed out of most courts on Ulthuan with her prophecies of doom. She is powered by spite and does not care if the world dissolves.
Adrian XXIV
Average User, from Poland
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To change topics a bit, who do you think would be on "list of guests" for Mathilde & Belegar's marriage?
Well, do we know for sure if Malekith and/or Morathi want to unproot the Vortex or not? The wiki implies that they were willing to destabilize it in order to unleash Daemons on their enemies; with the theory being that they'd then just undo their meddling once they've won.
Aside from being a "Well the wiki says" thing and thus not super certain... There's also the question then of whether the alleged or stated desires were their true desires. When it gets to ancient events, and to very personal and individual moments, it's hard to be sure what the individuals are thinking or believing. Maybe they're motivated by despair or madness or nudged by Chaos, and are mistaken. Maybe they're lying to people when they give their reasons. Or maybe they're lying to themselves.
We could assume that it was for the stated given reasons; that Morathi and Malekith wanted to win, rather than to end the Vortex. Dunno how much we can credit Morathi, given both her backstory, as well as... well, everything she did in the millennia afterwards. Sometimes people are just disastrously ambitious and evil and/or crazy in their ambitions or their methods, no matter how much they might cry "Nobody listened to me when I foretold doom!" or "I deserve this!" One interesting thought I had about some depictions of Morathi predicting Chaos -- side note, a few people state or cite that she had warned people as a fact, but, eh, not sure that that necessarily should be taken as canon, more just something that sometimes gets repeated as a fact about Morathi in some places -- is the fact that... even if it were true, that's not exactly an uncommon story? Like, it was already pointed out that a comparative study of theology led to a variety of stories that went "Our God saw the writing on the wall first, and he stepped up to fight first and warned everybody else." Ulric and Ranald came across the rift first, and Ulric stayed to fight and told Ranald to tell everyone. Ranald ran away instead. In other stories, Ranald is just sneaking around and stuff and not doing much. In other stories, King Taal leads the other gods in the fight. In other stories -- I think a more recent one, that was quoted/shared here? -- he doesn't trust the Old Ones and views them as bad as Chaos or the Gods of Order. So, basically, mythology and history has lots of stories that say that their guy played some vital role or got the warning out first or something. This leads me to suspect that... in a time period that lasted thousands of years, and took place across the whole of the planet, there was a lot of time and opportunity for many people to realize things first or at the same time as everyone; or for them to point to different omens or moments and say that this or that was a sign of things to come. And there was also a lot of room for people to think that a given situation would continue on for a long time. In fact, "that situation" can be something like "The Old Ones and Chaos Gods will fight perpetually". Or it can be something like "Well, we've been fighting against the tides of Chaos for centuries now; this is just The Long Fight now". At what point does somebody get to be the first person to cry an alarm? Is it when Ulric's fight against Chaos starts looking like it is going to be a delaying action rather than a permanent fight? Is it when Chaos might come to Ulthuan? Is it when fighting is already happening on Ulthuan, and it instead becomes a matter of "Things will tip over to our defeat, if we do not do something; wake up, people!"? What is to be done about the warning? Is it to build defenses and start drilling armies and teaching mages? Is it to centralize all powers and give authority and power to a single figure, ideally the person who so wisely and presciently gave the warning?
And how do you determine between genuine warnings/fortellings, versus somebody just being plagued with visions by Daemons telling them that the world is going to end and that they should give up and/or try something foolhardy and ambitious? i.e. A manipulation attempt by daemons sending visions, rather than a genuine seer's forecasts? (Though it could be both; foresight powers, as well as daemons messing with it. Or messing with the mind of the foreseer. Either way, not a very trustworthy messenger.)
Is it to give up and cut your deals with the Daemons; to defect first and hardest, so that there is still room to bargain with something? Is to to try to flee with the Old Ones? To die? To summon up the Elf Gods and incarnate them to fight? Is it something else?
I wonder what kind of stories the elves have about what person or what god predicted or warned about Chaos or the Old Ones or whatnot.
I've had some weird thoughts and ideas -- more like conspiracy theories or wild-mass-guessing, really -- about Morathi and Malekith. My favorite off-the-wall theory is the possibility that Malekith straight up died, and the Witch King is just his ghost bound to his suit of armor, or some other form of replacement of Malekith rather than the true Malekith. That Morathi is just acting through a surrogate because... well partly because manipulators hate ruling personally instead of through proxies and being the power behind the throne, and partly because she's just nutty like that. Did she love Aenarion, and her son Malekith, or did she love the strongest and most important man in the world and leader of the most important people, the elves? Did she love Malekith, or did she love the idea of ruling the elves and the world, of her children ruling the world and thus herself being in charge of the world? Does she still pine for Aenarion, or does she pine for the idea of her greatness and exultation and being the center of the world and being together with somebody who is also the center of the world?
Maybe the reason that Malekith survived all the shit he did over the years, and survived being thrown into the Aether, is because ultimately he's now more like a Daemon or Tree Spirit or Liche King than he is a man; he is a vengeful specter of vengeance and ambition.
And maybe Morathi is motivated by seeking eternity. Nobody wants to die, of course. But some people really want to not die. They won't just avoid death, or slowly work at a way to be immortal; they are looking out for number one, and if they trample people in the way, so be it. So long as they manage to pull it off. Some people will take deals that will fuck over all others, so long as they get to win and persist perpetually. Because in the long run, isn't that what matters, what holds the final ledger? What matters is who remains in the end, and remains forever. Maybe that's why she is willing to play with Chaos if need be, but is also totally willing to become a Goddess if she can too. Chaos or Daemonprincehood probably isn't her first choice though. Not if she feels can be a goddess. Or at least a perpetual mortal ruler of the world. If she conquered Ulthuan and ruled the world, perhaps she wouldn't feel fine risking her immortal life on an attempt at apotheosis; perhaps her calculus would change. Perhaps she's only willing to risk her life and the world, if she feels she isn't already in charge of the world. Perhaps if she were in charge of the world, she wouldn't be as much of a risk-taker.
Maybe that's why she'd be willing to take crazy risks with the world, or use the Vortex to turn herself into a Goddess or whatever -- if that's even how it works; the Vortex Campaign of the videogame says some stuff and has some scenarios and endings, but I think it's motivated by a desire for Cool And Dramatic Stakes rather than necessarily being 100% canon, you know? Though just because the writing was made for stakes and drama, doesn't mean it's not workable or some of it is useable. And a cool setting is a cool setting. It can be cool to play around with things in a dramatic or mythical, or mythological, way whether that be with Incarnates or a Vortex Campaign or something else, something that defeats or banishes Chaos from the world instead somehow.
Anyway, the "Malekith is some form of immortal spirit or ghost, either bound to the armor, or recreated continuously by Morathi whenever he dies and rebound to the armor" theory is just a crazy theory. It's born partly from "How does one survive all those things?" and partly from "What if it's all Morathi's neurosises and control freak tendencies and crazy beliefs about herself and Aenarion and her son -- while at the same time wishing to avoid being the central ruling figure? Manipulators and tyrants can be weird like that; some of them want to rule open, while others are allergic to light and want to rule from the shadows or through a proxy, or to be the Vizier rather than the King."
I don't think it's true, but I do think Morathi has some crazy things going on in her head both with her personal relationships and with her ambitions or fears so it at least feels plausible as a path for things to be like given the mindset and histories of the people involved.
Aside from being a "Well the wiki says" thing and thus not super certain... There's also the question then of whether the alleged or stated desires were their true desires. When it gets to ancient events, and to very personal and individual moments, it's hard to be sure what the individuals are thinking or believing. Maybe they're motivated by despair or madness or nudged by Chaos, and are mistaken. Maybe they're lying to people when they give their reasons. Or maybe they're lying to themselves.
We could assume that it was for the stated given reasons; that Morathi and Malekith wanted to win, rather than to end the Vortex. Dunno how much we can credit Morathi, given both her backstory, as well as... well, everything she did in the millennia afterwards. Sometimes people are just disastrously ambitious and evil and/or crazy in their ambitions or their methods, no matter how much they might cry "Nobody listened to me when I foretold doom!" or "I deserve this!" One interesting thought I had about some depictions of Morathi predicting Chaos -- side note, a few people state or cite that she had warned people as a fact, but, eh, not sure that that necessarily should be taken as canon, more just something that sometimes gets repeated as a fact about Morathi in some places -- is the fact that... even if it were true, that's not exactly an uncommon story? Like, it was already pointed out that a comparative study of theology led to a variety of stories that went "Our God saw the writing on the wall first, and he stepped up to fight first and warned everybody else." Ulric and Ranald came across the rift first, and Ulric stayed to fight and told Ranald to tell everyone. Ranald ran away instead. In other stories, Ranald is just sneaking around and stuff and not doing much. In other stories, King Taal leads the other gods in the fight. In other stories -- I think a more recent one, that was quoted/shared here? -- he doesn't trust the Old Ones and views them as bad as Chaos or the Gods of Order. So, basically, mythology and history has lots of stories that say that their guy played some vital role or got the warning out first or something. This leads me to suspect that... in a time period that lasted thousands of years, and took place across the whole of the planet, there was a lot of time and opportunity for many people to realize things first or at the same time as everyone; or for them to point to different omens or moments and say that this or that was a sign of things to come. And there was also a lot of room for people to think that a given situation would continue on for a long time. In fact, "that situation" can be something like "The Old Ones and Chaos Gods will fight perpetually". Or it can be something like "Well, we've been fighting against the tides of Chaos for centuries now; this is just The Long Fight now". At what point does somebody get to be the first person to cry an alarm? Is it when Ulric's fight against Chaos starts looking like it is going to be a delaying action rather than a permanent fight? Is it when Chaos might come to Ulthuan? Is it when fighting is already happening on Ulthuan, and it instead becomes a matter of "Things will tip over to our defeat, if we do not do something; wake up, people!"? What is to be done about the warning? Is it to build defenses and start drilling armies and teaching mages? Is it to centralize all powers and give authority and power to a single figure, ideally the person who so wisely and presciently gave the warning?
And how do you determine between genuine warnings/fortellings, versus somebody just being plagued with visions by Daemons telling them that the world is going to end and that they should give up and/or try something foolhardy and ambitious? i.e. A manipulation attempt by daemons sending visions, rather than a genuine seer's forecasts? (Though it could be both; foresight powers, as well as daemons messing with it. Or messing with the mind of the foreseer. Either way, not a very trustworthy messenger.)
Is it to give up and cut your deals with the Daemons; to defect first and hardest, so that there is still room to bargain with something? Is to to try to flee with the Old Ones? To die? To summon up the Elf Gods and incarnate them to fight? Is it something else?
I wonder what kind of stories the elves have about what person or what god predicted or warned about Chaos or the Old Ones or whatnot.
I've had some weird thoughts and ideas -- more like conspiracy theories or wild-mass-guessing, really -- about Morathi and Malekith. My favorite off-the-wall theory is the possibility that Malekith straight up died, and the Witch King is just his ghost bound to his suit of armor, or some other form of replacement of Malekith rather than the true Malekith. That Morathi is just acting through a surrogate because... well partly because manipulators hate ruling personally instead of through proxies and being the power behind the throne, and partly because she's just nutty like that. Did she love Aenarion, and her son Malekith, or did she love the strongest and most important man in the world and leader of the most important people, the elves? Did she love Malekith, or did she love the idea of ruling the elves and the world, of her children ruling the world and thus herself being in charge of the world? Does she still pine for Aenarion, or does she pine for the idea of her greatness and exultation and being the center of the world and being together with somebody who is also the center of the world?
Maybe the reason that Malekith survived all the shit he did over the years, and survived being thrown into the Aether, is because ultimately he's now more like a Daemon or Tree Spirit or Liche King than he is a man; he is a vengeful specter of vengeance and ambition.
And maybe Morathi is motivated by seeking eternity. Nobody wants to die, of course. But some people really want to not die. They won't just avoid death, or slowly work at a way to be immortal; they are looking out for number one, and if they trample people in the way, so be it. So long as they manage to pull it off. Some people will take deals that will fuck over all others, so long as they get to win and persist perpetually. Because in the long run, isn't that what matters, what holds the final ledger? What matters is who remains in the end, and remains forever. Maybe that's why she is willing to play with Chaos if need be, but is also totally willing to become a Goddess if she can too. Chaos or Daemonprincehood probably isn't her first choice though. Not if she feels can be a goddess. Or at least a perpetual mortal ruler of the world. If she conquered Ulthuan and ruled the world, perhaps she wouldn't feel fine risking her immortal life on an attempt at apotheosis; perhaps her calculus would change. Perhaps she's only willing to risk her life and the world, if she feels she isn't already in charge of the world. Perhaps if she were in charge of the world, she wouldn't be as much of a risk-taker.
Maybe that's why she'd be willing to take crazy risks with the world, or use the Vortex to turn herself into a Goddess or whatever -- if that's even how it works; the Vortex Campaign of the videogame says some stuff and has some scenarios and endings, but I think it's motivated by a desire for Cool And Dramatic Stakes rather than necessarily being 100% canon, you know? Though just because the writing was made for stakes and drama, doesn't mean it's not workable or some of it is useable. And a cool setting is a cool setting. It can be cool to play around with things in a dramatic or mythical, or mythological, way whether that be with Incarnates or a Vortex Campaign or something else, something that defeats or banishes Chaos from the world instead somehow.
Anyway, the "Malekith is some form of immortal spirit or ghost, either bound to the armor, or recreated continuously by Morathi whenever he dies and rebound to the armor" theory is just a crazy theory. It's born partly from "How does one survive all those things?" and partly from "What if it's all Morathi's neurosises and control freak tendencies and crazy beliefs about herself and Aenarion and her son -- while at the same time wishing to avoid being the central ruling figure? Manipulators and tyrants can be weird like that; some of them want to rule open, while others are allergic to light and want to rule from the shadows or through a proxy, or to be the Vizier rather than the King."
I don't think it's true, but I do think Morathi has some crazy things going on in her head both with her personal relationships and with her ambitions or fears so it at least feels plausible as a path for things to be like given the mindset and histories of the people involved.
- Location
- Finland
Everyone.
No, seriously, the list of guests is literally everyone within travelling distance who can get there and is allowed in.
Because it would be ridiculously unprecedented, and important, wedding.