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Also, there is also one thing: umgak Rune might explode not unlike badly-done spell, most likely killing will-be Runesmith (and everyone around them, in case of more powerful Runes)

That's why Runesmiths pick beardlings with sence of patience and precision, for role of "future Rune-makers"
 
So? It's not impossible he could do so, we don't know and we shouldn't assume he could.
I don't entirely disagree but I'm obliged to respond to this with a joking thought that my mind came up with:

Warhammer Pascal: "Perhaps we should assume and believe he can, in the event that our faith would empower him to actually do what we believe him to be capable of."

Again, this is just a joke, I don't mean to come off as mean or dismissive.
 
Also, there is also one thing: umgak Rune might explode not unlike badly-done spell, most likely killing will-be Runesmith (and everyone around them, in case of more powerful Runes)

That's why Runesmiths pick beardlings with sence of patience and precision, for role of "future Rune-makers"
Tunesmiths from the past had no trouble finding worthy and careful apprentices to teach, there's no reasons the current ones couldn't do the same. They're just morons.
 
[X] Lord Seilph, the Mystic
[X] Pan's Treehouse
[X] Orb Reveal
[X] Silk
[X] Karak Vlag books
 
Tunesmiths from the past had no trouble finding worthy and careful apprentices to teach, there's no reasons the current ones couldn't do the same. They're just morons.
There's any number of possible reasons, starting with a shrinking population providing less potential candidates as time goes by. Maybe the world is getting more unstable as time goes by, so apprentices that can safely learn the craft get thinner and thinner. Maybe the candidates with the drive and talent tend to die in a shieldwall before they can prove themselves. Or any number of other factors all playing off of each other.




There's this inherent assumption that somehow the continued existence of the Karaz Ankor isn't the result of a constant maximum effort struggle to maintain what they can and slow the fall as best they are able, and somehow instead can just be assumed to be the case, and it really get old. Any complex system requires continuous ongoing maintenance just to not collapse, ones composed of people even more so.
 
I dislike the idea of Runesmiths not teaching their own apprentices to the best of their ability, I feel like the seeing if they're worthy is something you should do before actually making them an apprentice.

Once they're your apprentice you're responsible for their education, an Apprentice not turning out to have the knowledge and skills they need when they've finished their education is like a blacksmith having turned out a shoddy tool. It's the Master's fault, he should have either never taken them in, if they weren't good enough (Like bad ore), or he should have taught them properly.

It makes no sense to me that Kragg for example would ever take in an Apprentice he saw as unworthy.
Him doing a half job teaching just doesn't line up with how I see the character.
 
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There's any number of possible reasons, starting with a shrinking population providing less potential candidates as time goes by. Maybe the world is getting more unstable as time goes by, so apprentices that can safely learn the craft get thinner and thinner. Maybe the candidates with the drive and talent tend to die in a shieldwall before they can prove themselves. Or any number of other factors all playing off of each other.




There's this inherent assumption that somehow the continued existence of the Karaz Ankor isn't the result of a constant maximum effort struggle to maintain what they can and slow the fall as best they are able, and somehow instead can just be assumed to be the case, and it really get old. Any complex system requires continuous ongoing maintenance just to not collapse, ones composed of people even more so.
Also, as Boney has mentioned, and was just quoted, a Kragg that accepts apprentices who are anything but absolute best (as he sees them) is Kragg who died centuries ago, in his bed, satisfied with his lifeswork.
Not the Kragg who is still angrily alive out of sheer disapproval of the world at large.
 
It's such an absurd mentality that I can't help but get a headache trying to make sense of it. It's one thing where you can't realistically teach everything you know to your apprentice due to lack of time or difficulties of translating your knowledge across different forms of Magesight, but to deliberately refuse to teach your own chosen apprentices as much as opportunity allows out of sheer perfectionism and what I can only call sheer selfish pride is just unbelievably petty and stupid.

There isn't even the excuse that learning magic too advanced or powerful before you're strong enough to handle it is extremely dangerous--runecraft lacks that kind of risk. And in the worst case, you can always teach the more advanced stuff you know to non-apprentices.


Thorek at least teaches an entire herd of apprentices to at least provide respectable quantity to the profession, but Kragg making little time for apprentices despite being one of the best of his craft seems so wasteful.
I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions here or premises here. Is Kragg teaching less than Thorek? Is Thorek more willing to pass on as much of his responsibilities and powers and knowledge, as Kragg is wiling to pass on his knowledge and responsibility? Thorek might simply be more of a politician than Kragg, and thus simply have less or different things to pass on; and Thorek might be more reluctant to pass on or relinquish different things in different circumstances than Kragg would be. It's not necessarily a one-to-one match on everything.

And the mindset makes a lot more sense if you look at it from the perspective of "Who can be trusted with secrets like the Liber Mortis, or who actually killed the Empress and the Tsar of Kislev?" and "Are you prepared to teach all your Masteries to your student?"

Because to a Dwarf, "teaching everything you know" means everything you learned and were capable of. It means passing on Warrior of Fog as a magical trait and your unique Masteries; because that is a thing-you-learned, an advancement of magic. Or if you aren't willing -- or capable -- of passing it on to a student, then you have to Codify it. Yes, codify your Magical Trait. Not your Masteries, your magical trait -- because the point isn't just to pass on your unique spell twists, it's to pass on your magical perspective too, so that your magical perspective can be perpetually dug into in the future and harvested for all its benefits.

And also it presumably implies that you would have been learning your master's Masteries and Magical Trait, too. Because it would have been his responsibility to teach everything he had, and your responsibility to learn it.

And yet, Mathilde didn't learn Regiman's masteries or magical trait. Nor can she pass it on.

That would be what a comparison and contrast between the Dwarf and human system would look like. That is what it would mean to pass everything on. It doesn't just mean passing on the juicy secrets like the Liber Mortis, which some people advocate for talking about (sometimes with total strangers we don't know, on the basis of "Well, this guy probably won't misuse it because they have no reason to, right?") and others advocated against even learning in the first place, and others advocate various other stuff.

Given that, is the Dwarf method of "Kragg only teaches some of what he knows and only trusts people to carry on some of his responsibilities, not all of them; he'd love to find a worthy apprentice one day, but..." really all that different from the human method in terms of outcomes?

We don't even know what our master's Magical Trait was or Masteries. Nor our master's master, or his before him. Some of them might not even have had a proper master as such, and learned more from the school and then developed things on their own. Some might have had multiple masters due to death or whatever. A Dwarf system or ideal, would have been one that tried to keep a chain going as far back as possible.

By Dwarf standards, we aren't measuring up to that standard. We aren't teaching our apprentice(s) everything we, and our master, know. We'd object and say that we're teaching them everything we know about magic, and that stuff like Masteries or magical traits probably don't really count or are tricky to teach, and who knows if a magical trait can be outright copied like that that's absurd? But, well... that'd be us failing a standard. =/

To a Dwarf, I presume a true apprentice(TM) would be somebody you trusted with all those secrets and responsibilities. They'd be somebody who you'd expect to do as good a job as you yourself did and would trust to be faced with the same kinds of challenges and questions as you yourself were, and to make the correct decisions despite the challenges or issues. That's a hard ask! Finding somebody of unimpeachable character, or raising and training somebody to be like that, is hard.

That doesn't mean that Dwarfs won't call somebody a true apprentice, but yet not teach them everything and leave no stone untouched. They might decide to leave some things out anyway. They'd just feel shame for doing so. After all, if I truly believed that my apprentice was worthy, then I'd have trusted them with all my deeds and knowledge that I did, right? And yet I didn't teach them everything. I'm a failure. -- I'm sure some things have happened too. Probably less commonly than Dwarfs deciding to not teach everything and not call them a true apprentice.

But the ideal for a Dwarf, is to have a successor that could be trusted with all of that stuff. With all that you did and learned and knew of. Because that's how you pass on things for eternity and keep things going for eternity. The problem is that to successfully pass on the secrets of, say, the assassinations of rulers or the Liber Mortis... means, well, successfully being able to trust at every step of the chain in the future. And this is rule-breaking stuff and ruler-blackmailing secrets here, and you'd be trusting every future apprentice with that.

Dwarfs are expected to be able to do that. Not all Dwarfs are capable of doing that. Either they tell their apprentices anyway, while praying their apprentices are up for the job anyway and that this doesn't all turn out ill... Or they don't tell their apprentices everything, and pray it all doesn't turn out ill. And the masters and the apprentices all live with the shame or with the pressure of living up to that responsibility or those choices or that knowledge. And with the knowledge that they'll have to pass all that on to somebody, and that somebody will also have to be capable of bearing those secrets and being of good enough judgment to pick a good successor and for that successor to do the same... Is it any wonder that at some point, some Dwarfs decide "Yeah, okay, no, this information is too hot too handle; I can't in good consciousness pass it on. This secret has to die with me. And if I feel shame that I am unable to be a good enough teacher to find or teach a student that can bear this perpetually, then that shame is on me."

The old Dwarf is jealous of his lore and protective of his reputation and so far he has not shared the secret of his master rune with any of his apprentices, so only he may use it. Perhaps some day the master will teach it to his successor, but so far he has not found a Runesmith worthy enough to inherit his knowledge.

When a Runesmith judges the time is right, he chooses a young relative to be his apprentice and reticently teaches him, for an apprentice has to prove his worthiness to wring out even the most basic steps of the craft from his Master. Many powerful runes have been lost over time simply because a Runesmith could find no one he considered worthy enough to gain his innermost knowledge.
Look at what that says -- Kragg does teach some of his stuff, he just doesn't teach all of it. And he is waiting and hoping for an apprentice that he could teach it all to one day, it's just... the responsibility is a big one to pass on. His responsibilities probably don't just include "Being a Runelord and crafting runes" by the way -- it's for being responsible for stuff we probably can't imagine, and for ensuring quality of character to entrust guild and religious secrets too.

It's easy to compare this to the collegiate system and throw criticism, but... if you compare it to just the magic spells that the mages learn or invent, it's not quite the same is it? Because some magic spells can be more easily shared than others. And even then, the Colleges don't share it all with the other Colleges -- we were given a direct example of this, with how the Jades/Ambers/Golds keep very quiet about how Gehenna's Golden Hounds/Crows/etc work, because they're spirit-binding.

Granted, the Colleges do pass things on. They pass on the spirit-binding and the secrets and myths too. And sometimes those secrets are betrayed, and the College or the Empire has to hunt down the renegade -- but for a Dwarf, this would be unacceptable. The Empire of Man can accept traitors and heretics; to the Dwarfs, that would be far more unacceptable.

Or for another example... think about how reluctant Mathilde would be to pass on the full Liber Mortis to any apprentice. We might do it. We might give it back to Roswita instead. We might not pass it on at all. We're not sure yet. We might get killed before we decide to pass it on or not, and so the decision would be made by our Final Will. There's certainly parties with strong opinions on the matter; those who want to share the knowledge, or to hide the knowledge, and advocate for it. We'll see how it turns out in the end.

And then there was the stuff I mentioned in the upper half, about passing on Masteries and stuff. What if by Dwarf standards, you'd be expected to be capable of passing on that stuff too? That the expectation wouldn't be a laissez-faire "Some masters try to teach their students their specific ways; some just teach the basics and intermediates and let the student reach for grandmastery on their own" but instead an expectation that you pass on your magical perspective so that the pov can be mined for all the minerals available.

((And if you want variety? If you want students who do their own thing, rather than students that will carry on the mindset perpetually just in case the mindset comes in useful? Well, then you have to teach multiple sets of students! An apprentice that will carry everything you have; and an apprentice that you hope will have their own Magical Trait and their own Masteries, and will in turn teach his own Full Apprentice and Not-Full-Apprentice. But that seems like a huge expectation to have. How easy is it to continuously in every generation make sure you teach at least one person -- because if you only taught one Full Apprentice, then if they died, oh well, your whole line might be ended -- everything, and also make sure you have at least one spare that is expected to go their own way?))

*Kragg is teaching stuff to people. Not everything, but something.
*Thorek is also teaching stuff to people. However, he is too busy to teach everything and instead teaches a smattering of things instead.

What is the outcome of both approaches? And what are the probable mindsets and motives of both Runelords? Because I'm willing to bet that both approaches and mindsets are actually a lot more similar than you'd expect, and also result in a more similar outcome than you'd expect, too.

The same thing, I'm willing to bet; both Kragg and Thorek don't pass on all that they know and/or all their responsibilities. And it's not just because Thorek is too busy I wager. I think Thorek also goes "Well, I'm teaching a bunch of people to a 'good enough' standard... but nobody really meets my 'Can be my Full Replacement'-level standards. Nobody here strikes me as a replacement for Thorek. So until that happens, I won't pass on all my knowledge -- and accompanying responsibilities -- to a student."

Granted though, I'll bet that Thorek is more likely to pass on all the stuff he knows... ... because he probably knows less valuable secrets and responsibilities than Kragg.

Is Thorek teaching a political heir though? Thorek is as much a politician as he is a Runelord (a criticism labeled at him by Kragg; that he wears too many hats). Is he raising a political heir?

And if he is raising a political heir, is that because he trusts somebody to be as good as him at Runesmithing and politics, or is it because he wants somebody to continue on his mindset -- that he wants to perpetuate his ideals and ideas? That's neither bad nor good, it just is what it is. Though such circumstances can result in controlling or overbearing masters. Or students and inheritors left feeling overshadowed. Basically what I'm saying is, Thorek and Kragg might have different expectations and goals in mind and different thoughts about what ought to be passed on and how. And that this would be not just about knowledge, but also about politics too.
 
Tunesmiths from the past had no trouble finding worthy and careful apprentices to teach, there's no reasons the current ones couldn't do the same. They're just morons.
Citation needed. We have no idea how many would be runesmiths never got taught because they did not make the cut in the past. For all we know the standards were even more exacting. There was just a pool of millions, whereas now its barely reaching third of one for any ability to make rune at all, judging by the rhunkit of karak vlag.

I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions here or premises here. Is Kragg teaching less than Thorek? Is Thorek more willing to pass on as much of his responsibilities and powers and knowledge, as Kragg is wiling to pass on his knowledge and responsibility? Thorek might simply be more of a politician than Kragg, and thus simply have less or different things to pass on; and Thorek might be more reluctant to pass on or relinquish different things in different circumstances than Kragg would be. It's not necessarily a one-to-one match on everything.
Mathilde goes as far as to say that Thorek is, by runelord standards, fairly average. Kragg is said to be one of the best.... ever. Not for this benighted age. Ever. (Okay i tried looking that one up and it just say by far the most powerful living, i dunno maybe the wiki changed again?)

EDIT: Just for reference, and i know i said this before, barring a potential namesake, Kragg learned from Morek Furrowbrow, who was already Master Runesmith during reign of Gotrek Starbreaker (which is weird as hell, because it would've made him be north of 3000 years old at the time of his passing, but it would explain where Kragg got it from).
 
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Adhoc vote count started by mathymancer on Dec 28, 2024 at 1:38 PM, finished with 969 posts and 178 votes.

here's how the skull river ambush can still win (1/?):
 
I dislike the idea of Runesmiths not teaching their own apprentices to the best of their ability, I feel like the seeing if they're worthy is something you should do before actually making them an apprentice.

Once they're your apprentice you're responsible for their education, an Apprentice not turning out to have the knowledge and skills they need when they've finished their education is like a blacksmith having turned out a shoddy tool. It's the Master's fault, he should have either never taken them in, if they weren't good enough (Like bad ore), or taught them properly.

It makes no sense to me that Kragg for example would ever take in an Apprentice he saw as unworthy.
Him doing a half job teaching just doesn't line up with how I see the character.
It does make sense if some runes are too dangerous without enough skill, and no one demonstrates that level of skill.
 
Worth noting that unlike, say, Black Magisters who haven't really built anything lasting (ripping off the guys who ripped off the guys who ripped off Nagash doesn't count), the Chaos Dwarves are a whole faction built on dwarven secrets turned to evil, and until recently people like Thorgrim and Kragg would probably have nightmares at the idea that the Chaos Dwarves might actually outlive the Karaz Ankor. As far as we and they know, the Dawi-Zharr haven't been suffering the same attrition as the Order Dwarves and in fact were trending up this entire time.
 
Worth noting that unlike, say, Black Magisters who haven't really built anything lasting (ripping off the guys who ripped off the guys who ripped off Nagash doesn't count), the Chaos Dwarves are a whole faction built on dwarven secrets turned to evil, and until recently people like Thorgrim and Kragg would probably have nightmares at the idea that the Chaos Dwarves might actually outlive the Karaz Ankor. As far as we and they know, the Dawi-Zharr haven't been suffering the same attrition as the Order Dwarves and in fact were trending up this entire time.
It does make some sense. If Dwarven civilizations were stocks, the chaos dwarves are facing a perpetual bull market.
 
"I've got the foundations laid for trades with Miriel, Mardil, and Filuan, but only one can go ahead without needing infrastructure built up to support it - the Mardil deal is for Runic luxury goods, which demand a price that could turn a profit if it was delivered by a Gromril gyrocopter." You almost bring up that you'd thought that the knowledge of luxury Runes was lost, before you remember you're talking to the world's greatest living expert on rediscovering lost Runes. "But Miriel wants metal, which needs at least a decent road, and Filuan wants stone, which is only practical to move by water."
"The subject of a road is a tricky one for Laurelorn. There might be ways to arrange something that let trade carts pass but not armies, but that's easier said than done."

"Aye. Now stone, stone is actually easier thanks to Gotrek's Expedition. It'll take a generation to get Karak Vlag's mining and smelting back to acceptable levels of quality and quantity, and a generation more before they've stockpiled enough to even think about starting to sell it. But if anything they're even better stonewrights now than when they were lost to us, and it's viable to haul the stone to the western end of High Pass and barge it down to Praag. Getting it from there to Tor Lithanel presents an opportunity to rope in a fourth family - House Teleri, the former boatwrights. I've sounded them out and they're interested in being so again. Less so than they should be for returning to the path of their Ancestors, mind, but that's the material we have to work with."
Oh man, I'd forgotten about the Eonir-Dwarf trade when it comes to the Kislev Canal we asked the Tsar to make.

I mean, the road we just finished will make it easier to trade the ingots that Thorek talked about. As well as Eonir-Empire trade. A road makes everything easier.

But the canal? Thorek explicitly called out Karak Vlag as a good source of easy stone -- as well as the possibility of involving a fourth family with this; the Teleri, the boatwrights.

Imagine if Karak Vlag winds up becoming enriched by trading with Eonir, after coming out of its nightmarish seclusion. What a weird and unexpected outcome.

... I wonder if Kislev will have anything to trade with the Eonir for? Hmmm...

Was Zlata background that of a merchant's daughter, or something else? I wonder if we could rope her and Eike into another "See what the Eonir would be interested in trading for" venture again? Perhaps the EIC will provide some transport, or perhaps Eike or the EIC will just help make some deals, or who knows. ... Or maybe it's more appropriate to involve Wilhelmina in this Eonir-Empire-Kislev trading triangle.

Or maybe this trade will come about all its own, already being anticipated because we already informed Wilhelmina about Laurelorn and about the Kislev canal.

Still, it'll be something fun to watch.

And fun to read future history books or lectures about -- imagine a history series that was about a 4-way trade between Kislev, the Karaz Ankor, the Empire of Man, and Laurelorn. The stories that might come about. As well as the outsiders and rivals that might be interested in or tempted by.

Would the Asur in Marienburg and the Asur in Erengrad start competing with each other to get access to Laurelorn trade?

Would Karak Vlag sell its stone to Laurelorn and buy... whatever... and then sell some of that to the Asur of Erengrad? Imagine the possibility; Karak Vlag becoming a nexus of trade between two different Elf polities. Probably not; if the Druchii can send a ravenship to meet the Eonir, then the Asur can also probably just send a trading ship directly to the Eonir. Maybe it'll be the Eonir that wind up selling some Dwarf or Karak Vlag goods to the Asur; and the Marienburg Asur and Erengrad Asur will wind up competing over who can get better Dwarf goods from their nearby polities.

... I wonder if Eike or Wilhelmina might be interested in talking to the Teleri, the boatwrights? If she might help Thorek with that? Or if Thorek might help the EIC/Eike with that?

Maybe the EIC might have more luck talking to the boatwrights than Thorek has been having, or vice versa. Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. Thorek is doing more trade-planning with the Eonir than Mathilde herself is doing. He's just more politically-minded that way...

... Maybe we should have one of Eike's next actions be to work with Thorek as he makes his trade deals? To see if Thorek and the EIC can cooperate on some of Thorek's trade deals with the Eonir?

How would we phrase or conceptualize that kind of action? "Eike: Thorek's been doing a lot of trading and politicking with the Eonir. See if you can help with that, or if he can help you/the EIC."? Not fully happy with that phrasing, but... I'm sure there's some possibility here.

Would it be an Eike action, or an EIC action, or both?
 
But the canal? Thorek explicitly called out Karak Vlag as a good source of easy stone -- as well as the possibility of involving a fourth family with this; the Teleri, the boatwrights.

Imagine if Karak Vlag winds up becoming enriched by trading with Eonir, after coming out of its nightmarish seclusion. What a weird and unexpected outcome.

... I wonder if Kislev will have anything to trade with the Eonir for? Hmmm...
The canal connects Kislev City to Praag and Erengrad, but the path stone from Karak Vlag would take to Tor Lithanel already passes through Pragg, you would have to go out of your way to use the new canal, so that was already happening regardless (we actually had a social action when we got a look at the new Teleri docks). As Parabola said, there's some chance that Kislev could trade ore with the Eonir, and it could maybe also allow the Empire to trade ores to the Eonir; ore trade is apparently unprofitable if it's transported by land, and without the canal there's no route to Tor Lithanel that doesn't pass through Marienburg. The canal would theoretically allow Empire ore to get to Tor Lithanel by Erengrad, but it's a long way from the Empire's major mines (which are apparently mostly in the southern Empire, pretty far from Kislev) so I imagine it'll be pretty easy for Kislev to provide cheaper ore.
 
It honestly makes a lot of sense, you have to transport a fuckton of impurities with what is actually valuable on the thing you sell, so not only do you have to sell it cheaper, you also have to transport lot more volume of it. Ignots all the way baby.
They're not willing to buy ingots forged by humans, though. They're willing to buy ore so that they can process it themselves and they're willing to buy dwarven ingots because duh, but human-forged ingots are too low-quality.
 
Fun callback bits from re-reading.

Border Princess Gretel, on her Princessipality:
"If it wasn't all being weighed down by Dwarven steel and silver and stone, it'd be the highest-risk, lowest-reward investment out there - for the amount of cumulative time and effort it would take to actually make all this work, you could practically carve out the Drakwald or rebuild Solland. But it suits me. I'm far from all the troubles of the Empire, but all its luxuries are just down the road.
Oh, and speaking of luxuries," she says, leaning forward, "when are those spiders of yours actually going to produce something wearable?"

Then during Witch Hunter harrasment debacle:
I'll take the silk sheets when they finally figure out how to make them.

Silk sisters and brothers unite! The time has finally come, the shame of undelivered vision forgotten, Mathilde no longer will have to bear such base needling from her former ward!

Just don't mess it up, Francesco! Silk sheets and something wearable, simple and easy, right?
 
So would it be worth the trouble to try and rollout the Hedgewise tributaries in Kislev? Any tributaries will be helpful, and Kislev doesn't have the same issues with the Hedgewise as the Empire does.
 
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