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I know this has almost certainly been discussed, but while doing some rereading i realized that yeah, we have literally no books about lizardfolk or more generally lustria, and i'm curious if this is a case where we've checked and we don't have access to purchase any without going to the asur (or *maybe* some basic geography:lustria books that we'd need to get in touch with whatever actual Imperial institutions manage swamp town?), or just a case like with beastmen where we could get (some amount of) books on them we just haven't?
We don't have any books about them because the library dump from Laurelorn didn't contain any books about them because they don't interact with them in any way and we haven't obtained any books about them from the Dwarves or Imperial sources. Plus while we don't know how much the Karaz Ankor knows about them the common belief among the Empire at least seems to be that they're beastmen squatters living in the cities built by a long lost civilization as opposed to the cities being built by the Lizardmen themselves, so yeah the Empire's books might not have helped the quality of the paper that much beyond the purely mechanical numerical bonus even if we did have them unless we managed to obtain a high enough level of books that we might've found stuff written by scholars smart enough to realize that the popular consensus about them might be bullshit and they're a legitimate ancient civilization in their own right.
 
We don't have any books about them because the library dump from Laurelorn didn't contain any books about them because they don't interact with them in any way and we haven't obtained any books about them from the Dwarves or Imperial sources. Plus while we don't know how much the Karaz Ankor knows about them the common belief among the Empire at least seems to be that they're beastmen squatters living in the cities built by a long lost civilization as opposed to the cities being built by the Lizardmen themselves, so yeah the Empire's books might not have helped the quality of the paper that much beyond the purely mechanical numerical bonus even if we did have them unless we managed to obtain a high enough level of books that we might've found stuff written by scholars smart enough to realize that the popular consensus about them might be bullshit and they're a legitimate ancient civilization in their own right.
Yeah i'm not expecting much (and even less for the lizardmen specifically than for general lustrian geography), but it made me think more generally on "what subjects are we missing and haven't thought of getting yet?" Also, even if i doubt it would have improved the paper meaningfully i think it would have been interesting to have whatever probably-wrong knowledge from imperial sources included in mathildes musings, cause thats more important to me than the mechanical favour gain :p
 
Hey, weren't those oh-so-reasonable-sounding Corsairs and Sorceresses offering to trade knowledge, I'm sure they've got some interesting information on Lustrian geography and its Lizard-folk inhabitants, if we'd just strike a deal. :V
 
@picklepikkl do you have that one quote of that one dwarf saying that really Karaz-a-Karak is the only real Old Hold? The other ones don't fit the usual bill - Zhufbar being all techy and Barak Varr being cosmopolitan, frex.
 
@picklepikkl do you have that one quote of that one dwarf saying that really Karaz-a-Karak is the only real Old Hold? The other ones don't fit the usual bill - Zhufbar being all techy and Barak Varr being cosmopolitan, frex.

You might be thinking of Mathilde's summary, when asked by the Chamberlain?

You take a moment to consider how to put this. "When I first started living with the Dwarves, I was struck by the cultural divide between the Young Holds and the Old Holds. It's an easy impression to reach, and one that few Dwarves will discourage. But the truth is..." You pause, trying to find the best way to tell him what he needs to know without speaking ill of those you live amongst. "I know a radical engineer who once told me that the only Old Hold is Karaz-a-Karak, and the more I see of the Karaz Ankor, the more truth I find in his words. Set aside Karak Azul, which has been isolated for generations. Karak Kadrin is pragmatic, Zhufbar is progressive - at least by Dwarf standards - and Barak Varr is cosmopolitan. And to assuage the guilt they feel for veering from the path of their ancestors, they speak a great deal of their admiration for the Old Ways, and allow themselves to be labelled an Old Hold, and allow Karaz-a-Karak a certain level of cultural primacy."
 
I think I was thinking of some combination of this post and the radical engineer she's citing. Thanks.
To be more specific this is the bit from Gotri she's citing,
"Hah!" he scowls and wipes his hands on a rag. "'The Old Holds', they say. We trace our Holds all the way back to the Golden Age, whereas the Young Holds only grew to prominence after the Time of Woes. So supposedly we're the template of what a 'proper' Dwarf is supposed to be. But if you actually look at those Holds, it's completely different. Barak Varr is as cosmopolitan as any city I've ever heard of, Karak Kadrin thrives on trade with Ostermark and Kislev - they just built a canal for the former - and my own Zhufbar is the cutting edge of invention and innovation. What does that leave? Karak Azul, who until literally this week nobody but Karaz-a-Karak had any contact with? As far as I can see, the only 'Old Hold' is Karaz-a-Karak, who are so very keen to tell everyone to get to dying so they can cross out Grudges that they can't see, or don't care, that the world is moving and it is going to leave us behind if we don't adapt. Thorgrim's better than some, but he only really cares about innovation if it's new ways of setting old scores."
 
he only really cares about innovation if it's new ways of setting old scores."
With the understanding that bias is something that can exist, is Gotri correct here? The Karaz-a-Karak Air Korps come to mind, but I don't know if that predates Thorgrim.

So an Elector that is upset at the Emperor will convince himself why it's okay for him to divide Sigmar's Empire, but a Dwarven King upset at the High King will brood endlessly on how they are failing Grungni's Karaz Ankor.
@Boney there's inconsistency in the genders of the pronouns. First part of the sentence is male pronouns for a gender neutral elector, second part is gender neutral pronouns for a masculine king. This is speech so don't know if it's intended or not.
 
I know this has almost certainly been discussed, but while doing some rereading i realized that yeah, we have literally no books about lizardfolk or more generally lustria, and i'm curious if this is a case where we've checked and we don't have access to purchase any without going to the asur (or *maybe* some basic geography:lustria books that we'd need to get in touch with whatever actual Imperial institutions manage swamp town?), or just a case like with beastmen where we could get (some amount of) books on them we just haven't?

Empire books on the subject technically exist, but they don't really contain useful information.

@Boney there's inconsistency in the genders of the pronouns. First part of the sentence is male pronouns for a gender neutral elector, second part is gender neutral pronouns for a masculine king. This is speech so don't know if it's intended or not.

Maybe grammatically suboptimal, but not wrong for the character. The only current female Elector Countess is Roswita and Mathilde can't really see her beefing with the Emperor. Karak Norn has a Queen and Mathilde doesn't know one way or the other whether she'd have beef with the High King.
 
@Boney, so for whatever reason my brain started wondering about the sex composition of the We so I started to do some research by searching through the thread.

Now given that Egg-Layers are called "Egg-Layers" that implies they're either all female or hermaphroditic.

Based on this part of a past update
"Juvenile?" Esbern asks. "No, look at the exoskeletal layers. Continuous growth?"

Seija's concerning herself with the head. "Even for their size, the fangs are unusually large. And look - no autonomic envenoming reaction. Hunters, rather than trappers."

"They've clearly got silk glands. Have there been any webs?" You pass the question on to the guards, and receive a shake of the head. "But from what you said they had a range. They're not trappers, they're not wanderers. They coexist. Sub-social hunters?"

"Brain is small, but always is for bugs. It's distributed through the body."

"It's grown, right?" Esbern asks again, sitting back from the cut he'd made along the spider's abdomen. "Molt marks, developed hairs... maybe not its maximum size but this is an adult, isn't it?"

"Like you said, exoskeleton. Count the molt layers. It's an adult."

"Then why's the ovary underdeveloped? Not even that, it's completely undeveloped. Late-life maturity?"

"Not with this level of density. Check the others."

"Female, female, female..." Seija flips a final unstudied spider. "Female. All similar size, too."

"They're the same size. A litter? Did these all attack together?"

The Dwarf in charge is very determinedly not watching, but he hears the question. "They're today's probes from all of the fortified points. We drag them out to the Halflings on shift change."

Esbern sighs. "Damn it. I hate hives."

"You hate anything that's not a mammal."

"It's a hive?" you interrupt.

"It's thinking like one," Seija confirms. "These ones are all the exact same size. For spiders, that means the same number of moltings, which means the same age. So siblings. If they attacked together they could be pack hunters, but they attacked different outposts. So either there's a lot that are the same age, or something about this birthing made them less valuable so they were sacrificed for information. On top of that, undeveloped ovaries is something you'd only see in adults if they were part of a hive with castes. These aren't breeders, so they don't develop the equipment for breeding. But if you want proof..." She stands and approaches the outpost, paying no attention to the Dwarves edging away from her. Ghur leaks from her fingertips, then lashes out at an observer far outside the torchlight. "Approach," she says, magic interlaced in her voice, but the creature remains impassive, staring back at her. "Groupmind. My spell doesn't work because the part that's doing the thinking isn't here."
The We presumably sent Hunters to do the probing attacks and given they're all female unless there was a massive coincidence that implies that the Hunters are all female albeit with undeveloped ovaries.

Based off this post,
The Hunters are apparently connected with genetic diversity. Every now and then a 'lost' Hunter will wander close enough to a 'foreign' We and be drawn in, and after a few days they are sort of absorbed into the collective mind of that We. This triggers ovary development, and them mating with one of the web-weavers produces a new generation of egg-layers.
We know that lost Hunters who are absorbed into another We develop mature ovaries and mate with Web-Weavers to produce new Egg-Layers and stave off inbreeding. This further implies that the Web-Weaver caste is at least partially composed of males and/or hermaphrodites who are capable of inseminating a fertile Hunter and that fertile Hunters produce offspring that are at least partially composed of the Egg-Layer caste.

However this isn't the only method of producing Egg-Layers as this update shows that Egg-Layers can be birthed despite the We in question not absorbing any foreign hunters,
The We have been doing well enough for long enough that they're beginning to consider 'splitting', where a few Egglayers are birthed, given a coterie of Webweavers and an honour guard of Hunters, and go off into the world to find a new home for themself.
Implying that Egg-Layers can birth more Egg-Layers.

As such my working hypothesis for We reproduction goes something like this:

The Egg-Layers are either all female, hermaphroditic, or a mix of both and produce new eggs of all castes by parthenogenesis, fertilization by mating with male/hermaphroditic Web-Weavers, fertilization by mating with other Egg-Layers if at least one of them are hermaphroditic, or self-fertilization if they are hermaphroditic. The Hunters are all female with normally undeveloped ovaries which occasionally get 'lost' and wander into another We and get absorbed at which point something about that absorption triggers the biological process which makes them develop mature ovaries. The Web-Weaver caste is partially or totally composed of males and/or hermaphrodites who may fertilize the Egg-Layers and definitely fertilize absorbed fertile Hunters who then lay eggs which are either totally or partially eggs that will mature into new genetically diverse Egg-Layers whose introduction will stave off the effects of inbreeding in their gene pool.

Is that an accurate summation of the We's reproductive lifecycle or are parts of it wrong or are there additional missing details?
 
@Boney, so for whatever reason my brain started wondering about the sex composition of the We so I started to do some research by searching through the thread.

Now given that Egg-Layers are called "Egg-Layers" that implies they're either all female or hermaphroditic.

Based on this part of a past update

The We presumably sent Hunters to do the probing attacks and given they're all female unless there was a massive coincidence that implies that the Hunters are all female albeit with undeveloped ovaries.

Based off this post,

We know that lost Hunters who are absorbed into another We develop mature ovaries and mate with Web-Weavers to produce new Egg-Layers and stave off inbreeding. This further implies that the Web-Weaver caste is at least partially composed of males and/or hermaphrodites who are capable of inseminating a fertile Hunter and that fertile Hunters produce offspring that are at least partially composed of the Egg-Layer caste.

However this isn't the only method of producing Egg-Layers as this update shows that Egg-Layers can be birthed despite the We in question not absorbing any foreign hunters,

Implying that Egg-Layers can birth more Egg-Layers.

As such my working hypothesis for We reproduction goes something like this:

The Egg-Layers are either all female, hermaphroditic, or a mix of both and produce new eggs of all castes by parthenogenesis, fertilization by mating with male/hermaphroditic Web-Weavers, fertilization by mating with other Egg-Layers if at least one of them are hermaphroditic, or self-fertilization if they are hermaphroditic. The Hunters are all female with normally undeveloped ovaries which occasionally get 'lost' and wander into another We and get absorbed at which point something about that absorption triggers the biological process which makes them develop mature ovaries. The Web-Weaver caste is partially or totally composed of males and/or hermaphrodites who may fertilize the Egg-Layers and definitely fertilize absorbed fertile Hunters who then lay eggs which are either totally or partially eggs that will mature into new genetically diverse Egg-Layers whose introduction will stave off the effects of inbreeding in their gene pool.

Is that an accurate summation of the We's reproductive lifecycle or are parts of it wrong or are there additional missing details?

There's a section in Collection of Important Information called The We that gives a detailed breakdown of the castes that I think answers your questions, let me know if you have any follow-ups. It's easy to overlook because it's never been part of the actual story, I wrote it, forgot that I wrote it, and then found it saved as 'spooder.txt' and added it to that threadmark because I don't remember what the original intention was for it.
 
Empire books on the subject technically exist, but they don't really contain useful information.
WFRP 4e: Lustria page 136, Skinks
'The diminutive lizard-daemons are a form of reptilian goblin, who dwell underground and in time grow to become the larger "Saurus", as unscaled goblins eventually mature into orcs and later trolls.'
— Baron Eldebrand Sachs-Kusche, Gentleman Scholar of Averheim
Page 143, Saurus
'Beastmen are to be found the world over. In the tropics we find the reptilian beastman, a scale-covered brute. These monsters of Chaos inhabit the ruins of an older civilisation, undoubtedly Elven in origin.'
— Baron Eldebrand Sachs-Kusche, Gentleman Scholar of Averheim
Page 152, Coatl
'In my opinion, travellers' tales of winged snakes reveal the imbecility of those who venture away from their library. It's self-evident that these "coat-tails" are a breed of tropical wyvern, as crude and mindless as the monsters we find in the Old World.'
— Baron Eldebrand Sachs-Kusche, Gentleman Scholar of Averheim


<Karaz-a-Karak>
This is the first time I've seen an ancestor god happy. Also, now looking at her rune, I'm wondering what the stroke order for it is.

Discord message from one of the writers of WFRP 4e: Up in Arms:
I actually think High Elves was held back by Ulthuan being sparsely detailed until very late in WFBs lifecycle. The Total Warhammer games have also filled in a bunch of detail that was otherwise left fuzzy so now the RPG can go in and do its version of chronicling it.
I'm really glad we'll finally be able to see more of Ulthuan and the High Elves. I didn't realise how much Total Warhammer contributed to making it possible.
 
There's a section in Collection of Important Information called The We that gives a detailed breakdown of the castes that I think answers your questions, let me know if you have any follow-ups. It's easy to overlook because it's never been part of the actual story, I wrote it, forgot that I wrote it, and then found it saved as 'spooder.txt' and added it to that threadmark because I don't remember what the original intention was for it.
No, that answers and clarifies everything and has additional information I was unaware of such as how the exchange of Web-Weavers contributes to genetic diversity too. Thank you.
 
WFRP 4e: Lustria page 136, Skinks

Page 143, Saurus

Page 152, Coatl

Yyyyyep. Barnacle geese-tier science.

Discord message from one of the writers of WFRP 4e: Up in Arms:

I'm really glad we'll finally be able to see more of Ulthuan and the High Elves. I didn't realise how much Total Warhammer contributed to making it possible.

The periodic confusion about 'Sea Elves' is evidence of this - the Ten Kingdoms didn't exist until surprisingly late, and early on it was High Elves on the inside of the mountains and Sea Elves on the outside.

And yeah, there are a lot of details that Total Warhammer fleshed out. It's truly shocking how much I end up leaning on the one-sentence blurbs attached to econ buildings in Total Warhammer for fleshing out how these societies actually work. The line "Those industrious enough to claim free land for their own reap the benefits, so long as they pay tithe to the Phoenix King." that you get if you hover over the bottom-level population growth buildings for High Elves tells you more about how their society and economy works than an entire Army Book.
 
And yeah, there are a lot of details that Total Warhammer fleshed out. It's truly shocking how much I end up leaning on the one-sentence blurbs attached to econ buildings in Total Warhammer for fleshing out how these societies actually work. The line "Those industrious enough to claim free land for their own reap the benefits, so long as they pay tithe to the Phoenix King." that you get if you hover over the bottom-level population growth buildings for High Elves tells you more about how their society and economy works than an entire Army Book.
It makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it. Ulthuan is pretty huge, and is described as being in a constant state of being gradually depopulated. Population density becoming so low that there's eventually a bunch of sparse lands that the government considers to be free grabs for whoever is willing to put in the effort to make it productive so long as they pay taxes on their gains is rather plausible.
 
It makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it. Ulthuan is pretty huge, and is described as being in a constant state of being gradually depopulated. Population density becoming so low that there's eventually a bunch of sparse lands that the government considers to be free grabs for whoever is willing to put in the effort to make it productive so long as they pay taxes on their gains is rather plausible.
Lot of more rural counties in my country have tried to lure in young (or any, really) people by offering practically free land.
You just have to build a house and live on it.
High elves trying to do similar things to keep land from falling into disuse, inrease economic activity and make sure no monsters (or just non elves) can start populating the area makes sense.

You do not want unmanaged forests/wilderness in a setting like Warhammer if you can avoid it, that's just asking for some problems you need to hire adventurers to solve.
 
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It makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it. Ulthuan is pretty huge, and is described as being in a constant state of being gradually depopulated. Population density becoming so low that there's eventually a bunch of sparse lands that the government considers to be free grabs for whoever is willing to put in the effort to make it productive so long as they pay taxes on their gains is rather plausible.
It's the basic principle behind the Homestead Acts which the US government used to populate the West and Midwest regions by offering basically free land to anyone who was willing to go out there and turn it into a farm. Then massive agricultural mismanagement resulting in the Dust Bowl due to the mistaken belief that 'Rain Follows the Plow' led to a massive drop-off in migration and eventually the Homestead Acts were repealed after pressure from environmentalists wanting to preserve what nature remained in federal land and the fact that basically no one was using it for its intended purpose anymore. But in Ulthuan where people presumably aren't stupid enough to cause an enormous environmental disaster it makes sense to offer up unused government land to those that will actually make use of it or have a version of squatter's rights that forces those that own massive amounts of unused land to make use of it or be forced to give it up to those who will.
 
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I think something I'm disappointed we'll never get to see is the rise of Sleek Sharpwit. He was a right bastard but he was cool and contemplative. Still, I'm quite happy that we got Qrech, who's very different to Sleek but fills the same role in the sense of a skaven contemplating their society.
 
It's the basic principle behind the Homestead Acts which the US government used to populate the West and Midwest regions by offering basically free land to anyone who was willing to go out there and turn it into a farm. Then massive agricultural mismanagement resulting in the Dust Bowl due to the mistaken belief that 'Rain Follows the Plow' led to a massive drop-off in migration and eventually the Homestead Acts were repealed after pressure from environmentalists wanting to preserve what nature remained in federal land and the fact that basically no one was using it for its intended purpose anymore. But in Ulthuan where people presumably aren't stupid enough to cause an enormous environmental disaster it makes sense to offer up unused government land to those that will actually make use of it or have a version of squatter's rights that forces those that own massive amounts of unused land to make use of it or be forced to give it up to those who will.

Wait some manner of expert (several of them from the look of things) actually concluded that the more you farm a place the more it's going to rain? By what mechanism? Human sweat seeding the atmosphere? :confused:
 
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