Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open


Man, Rat Ogres are expensive.

Goddamn encyclopedia salesmen. Haggle-masters
Breeder is another term for Rat Mother. No way in hell is even the best Rat Ogre worth a Rat Mother. That has to be an initial ridiculously high demand that's countered by a low offer and then mutually haggled towards a reasonable compromise price, especially given the one giving the absurd price is termed "Haggle-Master". Most likely the Rat Ogre gets sold at a reasonable price, the Rat Ogre is sold at a high price with some extras thrown in, or an agreement on price isn't reached and the deal falls through.
 
Or a deal is seemingly reached only for one party to betray the other at the handover and take both prizes home.
Possible but likely only if they can make it seem like someone other than them was responsible for screwing the betrayed party over and that they don't have the stolen goods in their possession. If you make a habit of screwing over the people you're trading with at it gets out that you're doing that people will stop reading with you and you lose all the benefits of trade and betraying your trading partners, enlightened self-interest likely keeps the majority of Skaven business dealing mostly honest through enlightened self-interest. Major betrayals would only be for specific circumstances were they would profit massively and could either eat the reputation loss or plausibly cover it up. Skaven traders can only have treachery on special occasions, as a treat.
 
Possible but likely only if they can make it seem like someone other than them was responsible for screwing the betrayed party over and that they don't have the stolen goods in their possession. If you make a habit of screwing over the people you're trading with at it gets out that you're doing that people will stop reading with you and you lose all the benefits of trade and betraying your trading partners, enlightened self-interest likely keeps the majority of Skaven business dealing mostly honest through enlightened self-interest. Major betrayals would only be for specific circumstances were they would profit massively and could either eat the reputation loss or plausibly cover it up. Skaven traders can only have treachery on special occasions, as a treat.
If Skaven thought that far in the name of enlightened self interest, their society would look very, very different. The Skaven reaction to seeing someone get betrayed is to say "skill issue, couldn't happen to me-me" and move on as if nothing happened.

Besides, they can always claim it was just a counterbetrayal because the other side was trying to pull the same thing, which has the benefit of being true a good chunk of the time.

It's just a different way of looking at "the cost of doing buisness", much like Edda would likely be absolutely baffled by human buisness practices and go "but then no one would trade with them anymore, right?".
 
Last edited:
I mean, people did just go out in the wilderness and build a log cabin just from what was available in the area. It's entirely possible to replace money with incredible amounts of work.

True, but those people did only that all day, often had an entire extended family working togheter, and supplies to do it.

A modern office/retail worker that goes living on free land probably wouldn't have most of that. And also lacking the skills to build the building itself or find materials in nature.

I know this might seem very weird to you but you do not actually need money to build a house. You give me a clay pit, free woods, and maybe some limestone, and as long as i have the tools and couple family members to help me out i can slap together a decent house. If it doesn't matter its log house then really just the free woods. (Which really all the better, i can fire a brick, but i only know the theory for the most basic bitch cement, never tried in practice).

Like even nowadays lot of rural eastern europe building is mostly just property cost and then material costs as you invite extended family to help out and the major cost (hiring workers) stops existing. If i didn't have to pay for property, i could bankroll a family house with what i have on my account whereas if i have to buy property its gonna take me another 10 years minimum. Pretty big difference, innit?

I mean, yes, that would work.

But its still a very big investment of time, labor and resources.

Better than both buying the land and building the house? Sure.

Still not something the average citizens has the skills or resources to do.

Even ignoring that most people don't know enough abaout building to build an house.

They would need to buy the tools and supplies, work hard at least many weeks to construct everything, all the while doing their actual job to earn a living, while coordinating with the family members helping them that also have lives and jobs to return to.

That is not exactly a simple matter.

What's better, having to pay for both land and a house or just for the house? Even if someone could pay for the former they may well still prefer the latter. Not to mention that in an agricultural society land is in and out of itself a source of income if you have the labor to work it.

True, but in modern times we aren't in an agricultural society. Wich would make building an homestead way more difficult. Almsot impossible to afford for the average citizen.

You average office/retail worker would lack the skills, manpower and resources to buid an house in a remote part of the countryside.
 
True, but in modern times we aren't in an agricultural society. Wich would make building an homestead way more difficult. Almsot impossible to afford for the average citizen.

You average office/retail worker would lack the skills, manpower and resources to buid an house in a remote part of the countryside.

We're not talking about people in modern times though? We're talking about people living at Ulthuan.
 
I mean, yes, that would work.

But its still a very big investment of time, labor and resources.

Better than both buying the land and building the house? Sure.

Still not something the average citizens has the skills or resources to do.

Even ignoring that most people don't know enough abaout building to build an house.

They would need to buy the tools and supplies, work hard at least many weeks to construct everything, all the while doing their actual job to earn a living, while coordinating with the family members helping them that also have lives and jobs to return to.

That is not exactly a simple matter.
I mean, there are two contexts here.

One is modern, and in the modern one we do all that, except we buy the building materials. Its how my parents built a mostly new house with just their family, its how we built one for those of my siblings who moved away and married, and its a model that has worked in east europe for decades and previously probably for centuries with less complicated houses so you didn't need a mason and electrician and plumber in family, just carpenter would do. Its simple reality and people do it because its cheaper and they can't afford it otherwise, and its eminently doable. Lot of people still have the know-how even if its passing out of living memory because even this is starting to become too expensive and people reorient into service economy and so aren't as handy as they used to be.

Its eminently more doable when all you really need are carpentry skills, couple of strong hands and someone who knows how to farm, because you don't have to pay any bills as above. There is no heating bill because you can just cut the woods that have become your property, you can supplement your diet with local game and foraging until whatever arable land you claimed starts yielding which you are gonna be slightly supernaturally good at because you are lowkey magic and seeing where ghyran pools most probably help, and if you are lucky enough to have a seamstress for a sister you may not even need to pay for clothes. And hey no rent. Like I'm sure the reality is lot more complicated but like... actually building the house up to medieval standards of comfort if you have enough hands is no actual issue once you have the tools and the material and land is free except for time invested in labour.
 
Last edited:
Karak Kadrin is pragmatic
Why is Karak Kadrin considered pragmatic? They trade with Kislev and Ostermark, but trade with humans is common.


WFRP 2e: Karak Azgal page 43, Istilam Seamist
The fourth son of a minor Sea Elf trading house operating in Marienburg, Istilam was always fascinated by magic and so when he came of age, he naturally left Marienburg to study under the Gold Wizards in Altdorf. He proved an able student, but faced too much bigotry at the hands of his peers. He left Altdorf and joined up with Kurt Steiner to see the world and unlock the secrets of Chamon, the Yellow Wind of Magic.
It looks like Marienburg elves travel to Altdorf if they want to learn magic. Also it looks like gold wizards are racist against elves.

Page 47, loot you can find in Karak Azgal
Ancient Grimoire
A rare find, these musty old tomes are filled with information about the arcane arts. They are sought after by wizards who study them to learn all they can about the mysteries of magic. The tomes lost in the ruins of Karak Azgal are particularly old and focus mostly on the Rune magic of the Dwarfs, and so are written in Khazalid. They can be sold on the surface for 1d10×10 gc to interested parties. A player may study a tome and make a Challenging (–10%) Intelligence Test after one month. Success indicates the player gains the Arcane Language (Runes) skill or a level of skill mastery in that skill.
This isn't the only evidence of runic books I've found. Dwarfs 7e and 8e both mention a book called the Rundrokikron which held runelore, including the secrets of how to make the Master Rune of Smiting. There's also art in the DPG of runesmiths holding books.

Pages 64-65
Koros-dar Nael, an Elf liche of considerable power, has now claimed this place as his own.
[...]
Koros was born centuries ago into a noble Elf family during the time of the war with the Dwarfs. Apprenticed to a powerful wizard serving in the armies of the Phoenix King, tragedy struck when Dwarfs caught the Elven army off guard and slaughtered them all—all except Koros. Witnessing the deaths of so many of his people, he slipped into madness, believing one day he would raise his mentor from the dead.

Koros buried his master and set himself on the dangerous path of necromancy. He embraced the study of Dark Magic and it turned his heart black with hatred for the living, especially the Dwarfs. His disgust for them only intensified when he finally returned to his master's grave and raised him from the dead. Expecting to receive praise, the Undead form of his master rebuked him instead, lamenting his turn toward the evils of Dark Magic. His master told him he would rather have died at the hands of the Dwarfs once more than to see his student come to such a pass.

Tormented with anger and hatred, Koros fled to an old graveyard, where he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secret of immortality and finally becoming a Liche.
Turns out the real inventor of necromancy was some nobody High Elf who's now ineffectually chilling in the tunnels beneath Karak Azgal.

<Karak Azul>
Karak Azul has greenery about its entrance! Never thought I'd see that from a dwarf hold.

WFRP 1e: Dwarfs - Stone and Steel page 31, Karak Azul
The hold's mineral deposits rival even those of Karaz-a-Karak; it sits on some of the richest deposits of iron, gemstones, and gold in the World's Edge Mountains. In addition to armaments, Karak Azul is a centre for all kinds of metalworking. The trade value of their products in the human realms makes the craftsguilds of Karak Azul as economically important as the weaponsmiths.

The Underway
Karak Azul stood alone in the south for thousands of years, gates barred to the collapsed Underway. Several decades ago, when Karak Azul received word that Karak Eight Peaks had been re-occupied, the gates were opened and the way to the north was cleared. The underground route to Karak Eight Peaks is relatively safe, but the way south to Karak Azgal, still in Orcish hands, remains blocked.
So it looks like Karak Azgal doesn't just export weapons, and it's not just dwarves they export to. And it seems that in canon, they too were fully isolated for millennia until Karak Eight Peaks was reoccupied. It also looks like they cleared continental trade routes of threats by themselves, which is very cool. What is with Karak Azul and producing such ballers. Maybe it's something in the water; in the Headtaker novel, the captain of the ironbreakers says that the Ekrund brewery wasn't what it used to be and guesses it's because of grobi urinating in the aquifers.

<Karak Eight Peaks>
According to the text underneath this image, apparently this classic artwork depicts fighting in Karak Eight Peaks. Anyone know if there's an update that took place at the location depicted in this art?

The King and the Warlord
I doubt those are power stones, but they do look a little like them. Also are those five runes on the anvil of doom? Maybe they're non-magical runes for decoration. I found something a little funny about the Total Warhammer anvils:
<Anvil of Doom>
The concept art for them depicts two little half-naked human guys holding it up.

Dwarfs 8e page 25
Of the Dwarfs that long ago settled in the Zorn Uzkul, and were once thought lost, nothing is said — their mention swiftly turns even ale-induced talk to brooding silence. As for the footholds established further to the east, in the Mountains of Mourn, the Dwarfs are far more enthusiastic. While those holds from before the coming of Chaos have been long lost, new expeditions to those danger-filled lands have returned word of rich treasures, rubies the size of battle helms and a fabled mountain made entirely of purest gold.
Apparently the dwarves are sending expeditions all the way over to the Mountains of Mourn, and apparently there's a whole mountain made of pure gold?? Dwarves do exaggerate things sometimes, but exaggerating to that degree would be new.
 
Last edited:
We really should hit up the Slayer Keep whenever we get around to purging forest of shadows nexuses. I bet we could rustle up so many slayers wanting to throw themselves at ancient evils.
 
Why is Karak Kadrin considered pragmatic? They trade with Kislev and Ostermark, but trade with humans is common.

They don't just trade with humans, they have housing and infrastructure built specifically to make humans comfortable inside the Karak itself. Outsiders are made more welcome in Karak Kadrin than in any other Dwarfholds. They import cannons from other Holds instead of relying entirely on local industry for their armaments. They make practical use of the Slayers that regularly flock to the temples there to further Karak Kadrin's goals.
 
Aside from Kadrin, there's Norn, Izor, Azul, Hirn, Barak Varr, Azgaraz, Skolf's Hold, and I think Ravnsvake, though that one's not canon to DL. I don't know about Zhufbar.
Okay, but of those, only Karak Azul and Barak Varr are old holds and

a)how in the fuck does Azul trade with people
b)Varr is already mentioned to be cosmopolitan in the very same quote to highlight that they have it in common

so like, that still holds up in the context the statement was made you know.
 
a)how in the fuck does Azul trade with people
<Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!>
In addition to armaments, Karak Azul is a centre for all kinds of metalworking. The trade value of their products in the human realms makes the craftsguilds of Karak Azul as economically important as the weaponsmiths.

The Underway
Karak Azul stood alone in the south for thousands of years, gates barred to the collapsed Underway. Several decades ago, when Karak Azul received word that Karak Eight Peaks had been re-occupied, the gates were opened and the way to the north was cleared. The underground route to Karak Eight Peaks is relatively safe, but the way south to Karak Azgal, still in Orcish hands, remains blocked.
<Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!>
These days, Karak Azul supplies armaments to all the Dwarf holds and there are few weapons that can match the keenness of a blade made by its craftsmen. [...] Weapons are carried out through hidden mountain trails and along the Underway to supply beleaguered outposts throughout the Worlds Edge Mountains.
 
Last edited:
Okay but why are you quoting some army book when its established that until Thorgrim pushed through gyrocopters, Azul was pretty much cut off. If it wasn't, the importance of eight peaks would be lot less.

Actually that brings up an interesting point. Skolf's Hold is built on the topside of Karak Azgal which is an old hold, so I'm not sure if Skolf's Hold counts or not.
Isn't Azgal a fallen hold and therefore does not count?

EDIT: On topic of Azul actually, didn't that statement exclude them because kinda like vlag they were so starved for new stuff that they traded as much as possible?
 
Last edited:
Okay but why are you quoting some army book when its established that until Thorgrim pushed through gyrocopters, Azul was pretty much cut off. If it wasn't, the importance of eight peaks would be lot less.
Because the same story is stronger in Divided Loyalties than it was in canon. Both had Azul isolated for thousands of years, both of their isolations ended once Belegar got a foothold in Eight Peaks, but in Divided Loyalties, Eight Peaks was fully retaken, which'd make trade even easier for Azul.

Isn't Azgal a fallen hold and therefore does not count?
That's what's interesting, I don't know! It's a strange quandary of classification for sure.

EDIT:
EDIT: On topic of Azul actually, didn't that statement exclude them because kinda like vlag they were so starved for new stuff that they traded as much as possible?
It means that Karak Azul has a different attitude to Karaz-a-Karak, but it doesn't change that they're an old hold that's trading with humans.
 
Last edited:
Isn't selling to other dwarf holds how Zhufbar makes its money?

Yes, but Karak Kadrin isn't just any Dwarfhold. It has wealth and influence and prestige and if it was so inclined it absolutely could develop its own cannon foundries and if it was more concerned with status it probably would have - cannons are a major prestige thing, practically every one I've ever seen has a royal crest and VR (for Victoria Regis) on them. But instead it sticks with what its good at and doesn't even try to outdo the foundries of Karaz-a-Karak and Zhufbar because from a pragmatic perspective there's no point in pouring huge amounts of resources into making your own cannon when you can just spend moderate amount of resources on buying them. And so if you go up on the walls of Karak Kadrin you'll see a lot of cannons with the crest of Karaz-a-Karak or Zhufbar on them.
 
which'd make trade even easier for Azul.
And it does trade, the statement has been made by radical engineer saying "barring azul because azul is out of touch" and then naming out all the old holds and saying how they are not actually acting as old holds, only Karaz a Karak is, and Karaz a Karak does not seem to trade that way, or so does chamberlain of the seal say.

Edit: The "pragmatic" is just a flavour description of how it acting otherwise from "old hold" mold.
 
Last edited:
Because the same story is stronger in Divided Loyalties than it was in canon. Both had Azul isolated for thousands of years, both of their isolations ended once Belegar got a foothold in Eight Peaks, but in Divided Loyalties, Eight Peaks was fully retaken, which'd make trade even easier for Azul.
Sure but you're also quoting something from 'several decades' in the timeline past when Belegar established his canon foothold, and it's been like, 15? Years in quest since we arrived at eight peaks, so even with the improved situation it's hard to say how much word or interest has spread for Azul's fancy metalworking this much earlier.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top