Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

BurnNote · Jul 10, 2021

Mopman43 said:
If you want to learn Runesmith secrets, look through Mathilde's family tree until you hit Thungni.

It won't work, but that's the only way you're managing it.

GrimTheMad said:
We're never learning runesmithing and I really wish everyone would just accept that.

No runesmithing for Mathilde by methods the Karaz Ankor would accept. You could do horrible things to runesmiths (necromancy, or general Ulgu fuckery, or just a looot of horrible patience) or work the Chaos Dwarf angle. Hell, the transcendant boon angle could work, if you pick the right target and have absolutely no regard for what it does to them. Or she could try to spy on a runesmith teaching.

Now, I think all of those methods are horribly out of character, generally horrible, very risky, not worth the cost, and in general should not be pursued. But they are plausible ways for Mathilde to learn about runesmithing, and ~~pendantry~~ pedantry compels me to point that out.

But if we want magical secrets man was not meant to know, then we should just go for the safer, saner and more socially acceptable dhar.

deathofrats0808 · Jul 10, 2021

ThatGuyMike said:
IT WAS WHEN?!?!?!?! JEEEEZ, GW, we were supposed to of been past this!!!

I know this was a while a go, but while GW are not great at the whole "don't be racist or sexist" thing, I do feel it's only fair to point out that GW haven't written WFRP since 1e. Green Ronin wrote 2e, Fantasy Flight wrote 3e and Cubicle 7 are writing 4e.

BurnNote said:
No runesmithing for Mathilde by methods the Karaz Ankor would accept. You could do horrible things to runesmiths (necromancy, or general Ulgu fuckery, or just a looot of horrible patience) or work the Chaos Dwarf angle. Hell, the transcendant boon angle could work, if you pick the right target and have absolutely no regard for what it does to them. Or she could try to spy on a runesmith teaching.

It's possible none of that will work and that runesmithing literally requires descent from Thungni to function too. It's far from the least plausible thing magic has done in-setting.

Mopman43 · Jul 10, 2021

deathofrats0808 said:
Green Ronin wrote 2e, Fantasy Flight wrote 3e and Cubicle 7 are writing 4e.

If we're being accurate, Fantasy Flight got the rights late in 2nd edition's life and were the ones to write Shades of Empire and Career Compendium.

BurnNote · Jul 10, 2021

deathofrats0808 said:
It's possible none of that will work and that runesmithing literally requires descent from Thungni to function too. It's far from the least plausible thing magic has done in-setting.

That is possible. I'd say that what we know indicates it's not the case (Chaos Dwarfs have their own runes that are hard to distinguish from real runes, Ancestor Gods other than Thungni did Rune stuff), but there's certainly nothing conclusive, or even all that strong.

Hmm, I think the strongest evidence against it is the rule itself. If it was magically enforced, you wouldn't need to do it culturally (and it is apparently ok to share knowledge about runes and their functioning, so it's not just to prevent others from figuring out weakness or such).

EDIT: One piece of evidence that you have to be a dwarf to do runesmithing is that it apparently involves their magic resistance. That might just be for sensing/manipulation and could be easily swapped out, or it could be something requiring significant but doable adaptations, or it might be a hard lock.

consequences · Jul 10, 2021

I mean, there are options. How willing are you to drag Ranald into a brawl with the Dawi ancestor gods by leaning on the Deceiver, or risk getting declared tainted anathema by trying to cut a deal with Dum or the Chaos Dwarves, in either case possibly for knowledge that we can't ever personally use?

I'm currently leaning towards not even a little, but I'm not the boss of anyone else.

Zero Gravitas · Jul 10, 2021

The problem with Runesmithing is that, even if Thungni personally descends to adopt Mathilde and explicitly gives her a pass...

It would still take multiple decades for her to become an actual Runesmith - she'd need to be an uber-prodigy to barely squeak by as a Runelord after 'merely' a century of obsessive studying.

The thing that's baffling is that Mathilde has an area of magical expertise where she's actually really talented: Uglu.

We've been perhaps overly cautious when it comes to learning Battle Magic or acquiring arcane marks but Uglu can grant us some really awesome powers if we focus on mastering it and we've got a real shot at becoming the best human Uglu wielder in the Old World - unlike Runesmithing where we'd need literal divine intervention to become mediocre.

DragonParadox · Jul 10, 2021

DXCS said:
It would be possible to argue that the soul of a runelord would never settle in a body that isn't descendent from Thungni, therefore the presence of a runelord soul in our body proofs our descendent from Thungni.

Sure it is. Our body is biologically human, witness how we do not turn to stone when casting magic. Humans and dwafs are not and have never been cross-fertile. Ergo we cannot be physically descended from Thungi

Andres · Jul 10, 2021

Bit of Khazalid from WFRP 4e: The Horned Rat Companion, page 81

Some Humans call them 'Tunnel Fighters', and they take no exception to this name, but 'Ironbreaker' is a more literal translation of the Khazalid Angthragor.

The Phoenixian · Jul 10, 2021

GrimTheMad said:
We're never learning runesmithing and I really wish everyone would just accept that.

BurnNote said:
But if we want magical secrets man was not meant to know, then we should just go for the safer, saner and more socially acceptable dhar.

And now that you've said that, I have the final piece of the puzzle I need to complete a joke I've had in mind for months now.

"If the Runesmiths ban me for seeking runelore secrets, I will face Dhar and walk backwards into Qhaysh."

- Dril!Mathilde

Which seems like a really appropriate joke when the thread is generally against Omegahugger's Dhar faction, but even the Dhar faction is anti-Runelore.

BurnNote · Jul 10, 2021

Zero Gravitas said:
The problem with Runesmithing is that, even if Thungni personally descends to adopt Mathilde and explicitly gives her a pass...

It would still take multiple decades for her to become an actual Runesmith - she'd need to be an uber-prodigy to barely squeak by as a Runelord after 'merely' a century of obsessive studying.

The thing that's baffling is that Mathilde has an area of magical expertise where she's actually really talented: Uglu.

We've been perhaps overly cautious when it comes to learning Battle Magic or acquiring arcane marks but Uglu can grant us some really awesome powers if we focus on mastering it and we've got a real shot at becoming the best human Uglu wielder in the Old World - unlike Runesmithing where we'd need literal divine intervention to become mediocre.

There is absolutely no data on how fast a human would learn runesmithing, if they can. Humans learn their specific winds way faster than elves do by being sloppy and compensating with great intuition. The intuition part wouldn't apply to Mathilde, but she does have incredibly windsight to compensate.

It's also also just a guess that learning runesmithing would not aid her in using Ulgu (or vice versa). The knowledge of the Liber Mortis has certainly impacted her understanding of magic quite deeply. I think pretty much everbody who wants runelore wants it for this reason.

Finally, acquiring arcane marks does not make her more powerful (with like one exception) so far as we know, and we don't know what mastering/controlling one gets us (and if it's possible), because we've not done it. And just learning battle magic doesn't mean Mathilde will get stronger magic either. I honestly think inventing more spells is the best way forward in that regard.

Rafin · Jul 10, 2021

BurnNote said:
Normally, infodumps are bad.

In the last couple of years I have heard "infodumps/too much exposition is bad, but this one is actually really good" more often than I've actually seen bad infodumps. I don't know if that just means I got lucky or if infodumps simply aren't as bad as they are made out to be, if they actually get executed correctly.

consequences said:
or risk getting declared tainted anathema by trying to cut a deal with Dum

Where do I sign up?

kingreaper · Jul 10, 2021

Rafin said:
In the last couple of years I have heard "infodumps/too much exposition is bad, but this one is actually really good" more often than I've actually seen bad infodumps. I don't know if that just means I got lucky or if infodumps simply aren't as bad as they are made out to be, if they actually get executed correctly.

Infodumps are bad if you're writing for people who don't like infodumps; or if you're infodumping things that people don't care about. People literally buy tomes that are nothing but infodumps for things they care about (Starfleet Technical Manual anyone?).

This is a forum where people generally appreciate deep worldbuilding - so worldbuilding infodumps are far more valued - and in quests infodumps about things you're intending to interact with have practical value, meaning that people definitely care, meaning that they can even more easily achieve entertainment value.

Derpmind · Jul 10, 2021

Zero Gravitas said:
We've been perhaps overly cautious when it comes to learning Battle Magic or acquiring arcane marks but Uglu can grant us some really awesome powers if we focus on mastering it and we've got a real shot at becoming the best human Uglu wielder in the Old World - unlike Runesmithing where we'd need literal divine intervention to become mediocre.

No we haven't. Mathilde's entire success with magic has been going at a reasonable, measured pace. (A rather dwarfish attitude, strangely enough.) With the exception of when Mathilde was unexpectedly taught Smoke and Mirrors (and we luckily crit the miscast roll), Mathilde has never learned a spell beyond her ability. She's only learned spells that she was sure she had the control to cast reliably, going from Relatively Simple all the way up to Fiendishly Complex. Most wizards learn spells on when they're able to cast them but not reliably, leading to them often eating miscasts and worse. Mathilde's careful avoidance of that has been a huge help in her advancement; that and Ranald's assistance mitigating many risky magical endeavors is how she got this far without, say, exploding into dempns. Plus once she crafted the Staff of Mistery, she did go on to learn a Battle Magic spell and create a new one.

Also, even if fishing for Arcane Marks doesn't kill her, it would be a quick way to torpedo Mathilde's very active social life. It's like a gatcha that physically stabs you every time you don't roll an SSS Ultra-Rare. (In addition to stabbing you in your wallet.)

Darth. · Jul 10, 2021

Derpmind said:
Also, even if fishing for Arcane Marks doesn't kill her, it would be a quick way to torpedo Mathilde's very active social life. It's like a gatcha that physically stabs you every time you don't roll an SSS Ultra-Rare.

Panoramia's parents: So where's your girlfriend?
Panoramia: *points to the patch of shadow on the floor*

BurnNote · Jul 10, 2021

Derpmind said:
No we haven't. Mathilde's entire success with magic has been going at a reasonable, measured pace. (A rather dwarfish attitude, strangely enough.) With the exception of when Mathilde was unexpectedly taught Smoke and Mirrors (and we luckily crit the miscast roll), Mathilde has never learned a spell beyond her ability. She's only learned spells that she was sure she had the control to cast reliably, going from Relatively Simple all the way up to Fiendishly Complex. Most wizards learn spells on when they're able to cast them but not reliably, leading to them often eating miscasts and worse. Mathilde's careful avoidance of that has been a huge help in her advancement; that and Ranald's assistance mitigating many risky magical endeavors is how she got this far without, say, exploding into dempns. Plus once she crafted the Staff of Mistery, she did go on to learn a Battle Magic spell and create a new one.

Also, even if fishing for Arcane Marks doesn't kill her, it would be a quick way to torpedo Mathilde's very active social life. It's like a gatcha that physically stabs you every time you don't roll an SSS Ultra-Rare. (In addition to stabbing you in your wallet.)

The risk of arcane marks is difficult to quantify without knowing how much training can mitigate them. Obviously, banking on being able remove the downside is foolish, though since they are the effect of changes to the soul through magic, I am fairly sure that sufficient mastery of magic and the self can do it. Whether sufficient requires a dedicated magister, a dedicated Lord Magister or a dedicated Teclis/Nagash is another matter.

I disagree that most wizards learn spells they can't cast reliably. Some of them certainly, but the ducklings aren't representative of the standard journeyman. And while Mathilde was careful to avoid that, she's also learned a lot more spells than most wizards, which is its own risk. It paid off in her high magic score (IG deep understanding), but being able to do that without great risk was in good part Ranald for shielding her from miscasts and later giving her Wolf whose extra magic helped push her further ahead of the curve. Plus, the fairly early windsight crit that gave her one extra magic point (I suspect most wizards eventually aquire a trait like that, but it typically is conditional and restricts them to a subset of spells).

Glau · Jul 10, 2021

I'm in the faction that says looking to become more powerful is worse than useless unless you have a purpose to direct that power towards. And frequently, acting directly on that purpose is going to get you much better results than trying to power up before attacking it

BurnNote said:
beardcare

I totally read this as Beardcore.

BurnNote said:
I do now want to hear about braiding and plaiding and decoration of beards and hair and the cultural and social implications. Maybe if we ever end up writing that book on dwarven sociology.

Lol- get me drink and bored some night and I will absolutely write you 5k words lingering on the care, feeding, and display of such magnificence.

SpaceSloth · Jul 10, 2021

BoneyM said:
[Learning Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma: Learning, 91+28+5(Library: Ulgu)+20(Coin)+20(Room of Dawn and Dusk)+???(Melkoth's tutoring)=???.]

I would like to learn more than one spell next time we try to learn battle magic. Having Melkoth help Mathilde cost us 10 favor and having to pay that for every single spell would be extremely expensive.
I feel that with +73 bonus with coin and +53 without we can probably be a bit more daring in this.

Mathilde interacting with other grey wizards and exploring magic are some of my favorite parts of the quest, so I definitely want to see more of that and hopefully master every spell that we can.

Mopman43 · Jul 10, 2021

SpaceSloth said:
I would like to learn more than one spell next time we try to learn battle magic.

I'm not planning on learning more period.

There aren't any others that benefit from the Staff so we're going to have to make our own.

BurnNote · Jul 10, 2021

Mopman43 said:
I'm not planning on learning more period.

There aren't any others that benefit from the Staff so we're going to have to make our own.

Yeah, the Staff is crazy powerful. It's as much of a game changer as the gear we got from Kragg. It's more specialised, but since it's specialised in the sense of "magic suited to Mathilde" unlike Kragg's stuff which is amazing for everyone, that doesn't really impact her.

SerbobIV · Jul 10, 2021

hmmm, interesting thing about the Rhunkit is that they quite handily solve Karag's biggest problem: does he work to maintain what is already there, or study to regain what is missing?
the Rhunkit could easily slot into the Rhunesmith's guild as a sort of maintenance apprentice/journeyman sort of role while also massively increasing the number of dawi who can preserve the knowledge for the future.

kingreaper · Jul 10, 2021

SerbobIV said:
hmmm, interesting thing about the Rhunkit is that they quite handily solve Karag's biggest problem: does he work to maintain what is already there, or study to regain what is missing?

That's not a problem to Kragg, he has no interest in maintaining the existing knowledge. If he did he'd occasionally take a student - possibly a runelord would be qualified for the role - and would teach them as much as he felt they deserved to know.

Boney · Jul 10, 2021

SerbobIV said:
hmmm, interesting thing about the Rhunkit is that they quite handily solve Karag's biggest problem: does he work to maintain what is already there, or study to regain what is missing?
the Rhunkit could easily slot into the Rhunesmith's guild as a sort of maintenance apprentice/journeyman sort of role while also massively increasing the number of dawi who can preserve the knowledge for the future.

The Runesmiths Guild in general and Kragg in particular believe that it is morally wrong to teach the secrets of Thungni to those unworthy of them. They believe that if there is nobody worthy of learning those secrets, then those secrets should be lost. This isn't a hidden flaw in their perfectionism that they haven't thought through, it is a core tenet of their entire philosophy. If the price of the survival of Runesmithing is that they lower their standards, then that price is too high, and they would rather go extinct.

NuclearConsensus · Jul 10, 2021

BurnNote said:
That last bit started as a joke, but I immediately realised it was just plain fact. Especially if there's Khazalid beardcare terms, because you gotta love Boney's Khazalid linguistics hour. I do now want to hear about braiding and plaiding and decoration of beards and hair and the cultural and social implications. Maybe if we ever end up writing that book on dwarven sociology.

Or maybe if a dwarf matron decides that, since Mathilde has been declared a dwarf, she needs to be taught all the things a dwarf girl would have learned, which includes stuff like haircare and plaiting and all that stuff.

Derpmind said:
No we haven't. Mathilde's entire success with magic has been going at a reasonable, measured pace. (A rather dwarfish attitude, strangely enough.)

It's also the same attitude Regimand takes to magic, at least in front of Mathilde, so that's another reason she learns magic the way she does.

BurnNote · Jul 10, 2021

NuclearConsensus said:
Or maybe if a dwarf matron decides that, since Mathilde has been declared a dwarf, she needs to be taught all the things a dwarf girl would have learned, which includes stuff like haircare and plaiting and all that stuff.

Given some WOG on Mathilde an her hair, I wouldn't be surprised if something like that already happened.

NuclearConsensus said:
It's also the same attitude Regimand takes to magic, at least in front of Mathilde, so that's another reason she learns magic the way she does.

Regimand isn't too fond of battle magic, but I get the impression that's less about risk, and more because he feels like the unrulyness taints his relationship with Ulgu. The man is perfectly happy with the very risky chain-casting of fiendishly complex spells (which Mathilde has also done, though she did it out of necessity) and the borderline sane deliberate miscasting (Mathilde has made use of a miscast, but didn't deliberately induce it).

So I'd say her approach is actually more conservative than his.

That gets underlined by her magical dueling style. Plan A is shoot the other guy, Plan B is sword them. Magic is used as a buff, preferably beforehand. In longrange/large scale magic exchanges, she prefers to let the other guy blow themselves up, with some encouragement maybe. That's changed with the staff, but even so her bonuses are best suited to shutting down other magic (or doing dhar).

Mopman43 · Jul 10, 2021

BoneyM said:
The Runesmiths Guild in general and Kragg in particular believe that it is morally wrong to teach the secrets of Thungni to those unworthy of them. They believe that if there is nobody worthy of learning those secrets, then those secrets should be lost. This isn't a hidden flaw in their perfectionism that they haven't thought through, it is a core tenet of their entire philosophy. If the price of the survival of Runesmithing is that they lower their standards, then that price is too high, and they would rather go extinct.

Boney, would I be correct in imagining that there is no equivalent to Perpetuals in the Runesmith's Guild?

That is, every Runesmith/lord only take on apprentices that they are confident will be able to achieve the rank of Runesmith themselves?

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak

Not A Nice Person At All

The Glacier Witch

Definitely a heretic

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak

Herald of the Thorned One

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak