Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
storryeater said:
People call Dawi the conservative nation living in the past, but they could just as well be called the shonen nation:

We'll do things the RIGHT way, the JUST way, or no way at all. Even if its harder/statistically unlikely. And we'll use our determination to do it.

It's just that, well, unlike shonen, author fiat does not make it auto succeed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That does not really invalidate the points about mental health. I would not call most shonen protagonists well balanced people at peace with themselves. :V
 
I am getting increasingly sick of people who are deciding on behalf of the Dwarves that their continued survival is more important than any of their cultural beliefs, and writing them off as 'stubborn' or 'stupid' or 'nostalgic' or 'playing silly buggers' for not agreeing. The Dwarves are deciding how to live their lives and when the cost of that is their own violent deaths, that is a price they willingly pay. For all that people are fans of the craftsmanship and honour and loyalty and bravery of Dwarves, they're so very willing to call them stupid for not throwing away the cultural mores that underpin them.

There are causes worth dying for. 182 years ago the Dwarves demonstrated this by putting their loyalty to their ally, the Empire, above their own continued survival as the Karaz Ankor marched to war alongside Emperor Magnus, and took so many losses in doing so that in the aftermath many of them genuinely believed it was the end of their race. And if a new Everchosen marched on the Empire tomorrow they'd do it again. You don't have to agree with it, but give them a baseline level of respect by acknowledging their right to decide that for themselves. And acknowledge that it is a decision they have knowingly made, instead of pretending that they're somehow ignorant to what it costs them to live their lives in the ways they have decided to live them.
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
That does not really invalidate the points about mental health. I would not call most shonen protagonists well balanced people at peace with themselves. :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Luffy is, but he is arguably not the most dwarf protagonist possible. Even though he also ignores common sense

Ahem, I mean, fair point, fair point. I just pointed that out because the mental image of Dawi as stuffy conservatives does a LOT to paint the discussion and certain people's predispositions towards their philosophy.

Edit: honestly though, I do agree that the only valid argument against the way the Dawi like to do things is, well... that it is not very good for THEIR OWN mental health, thus proving that there are some adjustements they need to make... but how can we, as humans, comment on what that adjustment is?

Second edit: ninja'd by the QM? should I delete this? Is there a ban on Dawi discourse?
 
Last edited:
BoneyM said:
I am getting increasingly sick of people who are deciding on behalf of the Dwarves that their continued survival is more important than any of their cultural beliefs, and writing them off as 'stubborn' or 'stupid' or 'nostalgic' or 'playing silly buggers' for not agreeing. The Dwarves are deciding how to live their lives and when the cost of that is their own violent deaths, that is a price they willingly pay. For all that people are fans of the craftsmanship and honour and loyalty and bravery of Dwarves, they're so very willing to call them stupid for not throwing away the cultural mores that underpin them.

There are causes worth dying for. 182 years ago the Dwarves demonstrated this by putting their loyalty to their ally, the Empire, above their own continued survival as the Karaz Ankor marched to war alongside Emperor Magnus, and took so many losses in doing so that in the aftermath many of them genuinely believed it was the end of their race. And if a new Everchosen marched on the Empire tomorrow they'd do it again. You don't have to agree with it, but give them a baseline level of respect by acknowledging their right to decide that for themselves. And acknowledge that it is a decision they have knowingly made, instead of pretending that they're somehow ignorant to what it costs them to live their lives in the ways they have decided to live them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I do not entirely agree with the above but I think we have gotten to the point where to push further would cause more real life stress and that I am not willing to do in the hopes of scoring internet points so I'll bow out of this discussion now

Thank you for your patience in dealing with this.
 
Last edited:
For a moment you feel that same tinge of despair, as you wonder if the Karaz Ankor will learn from this and immediately feel that they probably won't. But Karak Vlag has a lesson for you too. Those that embrace despair will die, and leave only those that still know hope to inherit. The arch-conservatives of Karaz-a-Karak may continue to wither, but they are not the be-all and end-all of the Karaz Ankor. The Young Holds continue to grow, Zhufbar continues to invent, Barak Varr continues to trade, and Karak Kadrin continues to deepen its relationship with Ostermark. And Karak Eight Peaks lives once more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And though Mathilde doesn't mention it, probably no one knows how many "Empire dwarves" (like Gotrek was planning to be) there are, given lack of a proper census of such things.

"The dwarves" will do whatever they want and those that are willing to die for their beliefs will make it work or die, and the survivors will survive and inherit. Maybe someday runesmithing will pass from the world entirely and the dwarves will get by on "just" super-awesome engineering feats. But either way, the conservatives will do their own thing and those who disagree will splinter off and do theirs.

Umm, except for the part where if all the old conservative holds fall (but especially Karaz-a-Karak) then everybody turns to stone. That's kind of the turd in the punchbowl I guess.
 
BoneyM said:
I am getting increasingly sick of people who are deciding on behalf of the Dwarves that their continued survival is more important than any of their cultural beliefs, and writing them off as 'stubborn' or 'stupid' or 'nostalgic' or 'playing silly buggers' for not agreeing. The Dwarves are deciding how to live their lives and when the cost of that is their own violent deaths, that is a price they willingly pay. For all that people are fans of the craftsmanship and honour and loyalty and bravery of Dwarves, they're so very willing to call them stupid for not throwing away the cultural mores that underpin them.

There are causes worth dying for. 182 years ago the Dwarves demonstrated this by putting their loyalty to their ally, the Empire, above their own continued survival as the Karaz Ankor marched to war alongside Emperor Magnus, and took so many losses in doing so that in the aftermath many of them genuinely believed it was the end of their race. And if a new Everchosen marched on the Empire tomorrow they'd do it again. You don't have to agree with it, but give them a baseline level of respect by acknowledging their right to decide that for themselves. And acknowledge that it is a decision they have knowingly made, instead of pretending that they're somehow ignorant to what it costs them to live their lives in the ways they have decided to live them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
For what it's worth, I feel like, for all the controlling ideals and cultural assumptions it gets mixed with, the questions here are at least coming from place of having come to appreciate the Dwarves as portrayed in this quest and want them to thrive, much as Empire folks might feel kinship and appreciation for all the Karaz Ankor has done for and alongside them over the millennia.

It's just that folks are at the point of asking "how can we change them to survive?" instead of talking about things like how the folks like Mathilde or the Empire could work to facilitate the Dwarves' flourishing and growing on their own terms. Which is a thought that seems really appropriate to themes at hand. "If men are defined by mutability in their magic, then what can they become to strengthen those around them?"

'Swhy I talk about "making worthier dwarves." On one level it's kinda a joke, but it's just as much a post to get the thread brainstorming about what role Mathilde could actually play in helping the Karaz Ankor recover on its own terms.

Also something something if we would pursue high magic we must first determine and embody the philosophy of high magic.
 
Does anyone have ideas for the boon that do not involve runes or sharing dwarf secrets?

I think we need to see more of Vlag's situation. We have no idea what we can ask for at the moment.
 
IronFist said:
Does anyone have ideas for the boon that do not involve runes or sharing dwarf secrets?

I think we need to see more of Vlag's situation. We have no idea what we can ask for at the moment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They do not actually have much that is of value other than dwarf-power and whatever may be in their vaults which I am loath to take from them because they will need it for their recovery. If we had taken one of the kingdom-building options we could ask for a dwarf colony to come with us even to Lustria I imagine, but I cannot see how they will be able to help us with the Waystone Project.
 
BoneyM said:
You frown again, thinking. "You repel Sevir. The Winds that the energies of the Aethyr become when exposed to this world." Your frown deepens as you ponder that.

"We do not do so naturally," he says simply. "We have the metaphorical nature of stone. The energies you call Sevir strip away the metaphor. So every Dwarf is born under stone to protect them from becoming it, even those that live far from the mountains. Only when the rites of Valaya are performed can they withstand this world, and many go their entire lives without walking under the open sky."

"Wait," you say, and take a moment. "Dwarven magical resistance isn't inherent?"

He shrugs. "It is not biologically inherent. It is culturally inherent. The Karaz Ankor does not recognize the distinction, and even the Dwarves living among the men of the Old World remain loyal to our ways and our Gods. The only exception..."

"The Fire Dwarves." Known to men as Chaos Dwarves, but the Dwarves are understandably a bit more circuitous about their shameful cousins.

He nods again. "As we are naturally, we cannot exist in the world that was created by the Coming of Chaos. We in the west survive by Valaya's protection. They in the east have a different patron. We are alien to the world that exists today, and we exist only because we refuse not to, and because the Ancestor-Gods have made it possible."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
BurnNote said:
There is absolutely no data on how fast a human would learn runesmithing, if they can. Humans learn their specific winds way faster than elves do by being sloppy and compensating with great intuition. The intuition part wouldn't apply to Mathilde, but she does have incredibly windsight to compensate
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Humans learn way faster than elves by being reckless and survive the process more often then expected by having more mutable souls.

Runesmithing is a slower safer more time consuming process and besides even if Mathilde is overly talented it'd still take a very long time.

Derpmind said:
Plus once she crafted the Staff of Mistery, she did go on to learn a Battle Magic spell and create a new one.

Also, even if fishing for Arcane Marks doesn't kill her, it would be a quick way to torpedo Mathilde's very active social life. It's like a gatcha that physically stabs you every time you don't roll an SSS Ultra-Rare. (In addition to stabbing you in your wallet.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm certainly not advocating for fishing for arcane marks.

It's just that basically every wizard takes risks when learning advanced stuff - particularly Battle Magic. We've been reluctant to do that, despite having better odds at not miscasting than just about anyone (literally due to the Coin) - which I do think is an overabundance of caution.

For the matter the thread does seem overly risk averse towards risks we can't mitigate - I still remember some posters being shocked that Mathilde would have died if she rolled a nat 1 when she went in the sunken ship to rescue the metalworkers guild members - which strikes me as a tad of an un-Warhammerish attitude to have at least in the sense that pretty much anyone in universe would expect to risk dying or getting maimed if they got massively unlucky in a major battle or some similarly risky activity.

Mopman43 said:
I'm not planning on learning more period.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It'd be good to have a direct damage spell like the Pendulum or Pit of Shades for when we want to make large armed groups disappear - our Warrior of Fog trait doesn't really lend itself well to offensive spells.

Mathilde nearly died way back when she was assassinating Warbosses in Karagil because she didn't have a AOE damage spell.
 
Last edited:
Chlof said:
Construction perhaps, If we ever need to fortify an area whilst researching waystones or something like that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I've been figuring that they are probably deft hands at fortifications, though I don't know if that translates to actually building forts or just plugging tunnels.

If they can help with that then we might be able to trade their favour to some other faction, like forts for Kislev for waystone secrets from ice witches if they have any.
 
IronFist said:
Does anyone have ideas for the boon that do not involve runes or sharing dwarf secrets?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If Mathilde ever wants to consider the kingdom-building option the next time she makes a career choice, pretty sure that Karag Vlag knows more about constructing a completely self-sufficient impenetrable fortress than any group alive. The fact that they largely don't rely on runecraft to do so is a bonus if you want the new place to be full of humans. That is the traditional answer for dwarves who owe you bigly... ask them to build something!

Zero Gravitas said:
It'd be good to have a direct damage spell like the Pendulum or Pit of Shades for when we want to make large armed groups disappear - our Warrior of Fog trait doesn't really lend itself well to offensive spells.

Mathilde nearly died way back when she was assassinating Warbosses in Karagil because she didn't have a AOE damage spell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Doesn't Mathilde have an item that does a pretty good imitation of dragon breath for such an occasion?
 
Adding to the Boney quote, the thread put two and two together in Thorgrim's interlude:
BoneyM said:
The Great Runes of Valaya, the mighty Karak-Runes that had protected the Karaz Ankor from the Wind of Magic since Chaos first came to the world, and the last of the Great Works connected to the Rune of Azamar, were faltering. And when they fell, no Hold could hope to survive even the gentlest Storm of Chaos.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And made the reasonable jump of logic, that the Rites of Valaya are tied to this ancient wonder. If the energy network fails, the rites stop working, and dwarfs that get exposed to the winds start turning to stone. The end.
Karaz Ankor would have to stop interacting with the world.
Or they would have to find another protector, Hashut style, which would also spell the end of Karaz Ankor (this time culturally)

Also, Rereading that chapter again highlighted the importance of getting a Runelord involved. If we tell them what we know about the Network and Thorgrim's actions (i.e. instantly knowing that Vlag was back), they will probably put two and two together, and do some probing.

How do dwarfs feel about possibly rediscovering (rune)lore that is tied to another secret that does not belong to the runesmiths (but the kings)?
The logical conclusion, i think, is that they would realize that the kings' secret was not always secret. At this point my understanding of the dwarf mindset begins to fail...

would they stop searching because if something was made a secret by kings, then it must have a reason... or would they keep searching, but resolve to keep their findings a secret anyway? Or would they obstruct any attempt at finding the secret?
The "good option" is a possible runelords can know the secret, but can't be told the secret by non runesmiths, so it's all right to try to rediscover it independently.

Which makes the Dwarf we want on the Project Thorek, not Kragg. Kragg has more lore, but his knowledge is probably going to die with him.

Edit: Ideally both, but I don't know how to make those two work together outside of battle.
 
Last edited:
Briefvoice said:
Doesn't Mathilde have an item that does a pretty good imitation of dragon breath for such an occasion?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's tricky to use in certain circumstances (and risks Dhar if countered), is more limited in usage and also not as strong.

DragonParadox said:
Yes, which is why we learned to do the sensible thing and run away better via smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's a helluva lot less glorious than dropping a Pit of Shades on them.

Our eternal rival Sigmar didn't become a god by being the best at running away, he became a god by punching Warbosses to the face.

We can't let Mathilde be so thoroughly upstaged.


Dark as Silver said:
Its not really that they survive. Its more that if an elf gets an Arcane Mark, they can no longer cast high magic and at that point they basically just pack it in and start a different career or whatever.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Pretty sure there's single wind focused elf mages though.
 
It's certainly not a transcendent boon, or anything Vlag is in a position to help with, but at some point it would be good to pick up a working knowledge of explosives and how to set them.

I recall one of the options in fighting for the Citadel was escorting a dwarf who knew these things to set demolition charges. And for all our magical puissance, we still lack an equivalent tool.

One example use case for such: the Chaos Dwarves have that tunnel from the disappointment that was Chaos Vegas to the coast, and enough explosives could really screw that up.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
That's tricky to use in certain circumstances (and risks Dhar if countered), is more limited in usage and also not as strong.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Compared to Dragon breath or compared to Battle Magic?

I also don't think it's significantly weaker than B.M. While there are more things that are resistant to fire than things resistant to pit of shades, it can't blow up in our face.
An enchanted item making some Dhar is a lot less dangerous to Mathilde than a High End Battle Magic Spell miscasting. She's on the hook herself for that one.

And if you think Pit of Shades is easier than the flinch that the Flask causes, I think you're way off the mark. Mathilde can spam MMM and S&M ( :o ) because of her Staff. Pit of Shades is extremely difficult to cast.

If we want a spammable AOE, Mathilde is going to have to make her own Mist Based one. There are a couple in the approved spells threadmark.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top