The real concern is the druchii of the two Black Arks did not send two Black Arks onto Salkalten for a milk run. There is no retreat here for the druhii. Their pride is going to demand they bury Salkalten. To do something to transform their bruised ego into satisfaction. Unless Freddy is dead, I don't see how the druchii could ever order a retreat no matter how badly they may be handling things.
fair point , if they come back to the Witch king with anything less than a total victory considering who they are going up against and the forces they have committed then being slaughtered by us is likely the kindest fate waiting for them compared to what Malakith will do
 
Actually, Black Dragons do not breathe fire. They breathe a hideous green acidic gas.

Very much unlike the Forest Dragons, which breathe a glittering emerald soporific gas.
That actually sounds accurate, since according to dnd rules black dragons breath out acid and green dragons breath out poison gas, which seems to fit WHF rules too.
So, just in case some of y'all forgot, there are four named gryphons featured in the quest so far.
Curious if Oskana and Sigismund will mate again and make more eggs.

I can totally see Magnus gifting griffin mounts to loyal people of Empire, the Grand Theogonist with one would make a lot of sense for example, but mostly because he wants to spread griffin mounts so there is a stable population of them in the Empire in general just due to his pure love of them.
 
while the Imperial Dragon was raised in captivity as a zoo animal which it resents, is kept under lock and key with a magically reinforced collar, has killed multiple stewards and zookeepers, and only lets Karl Franz ride it because he can "dominate its will", whatever that means but it certainly doesn't imply a happy interspecies friendship. I would not call that "figured out how to work with them".

While I will give you Elspeth using magic to bind the Carmine Dragon that she rides on and even then it is never stated in the lore how exactly she gets the Dragon to work with her. Everyone who knows about her and the Dragon just thinks it's magic and leaves it at that because she is a figure of not a small bit of Terror and so people tend to leave her alone.

Karl-Franz on the other hand is noted as having raised DeathClaw himself from when the Griffion was just a egg and to have a amazing bond with him. Hell the 8th edition army book keeps the lore about Deathclaw being trusted to the simply fly around above Altdorf during the day because he can be trusted not to cause trouble. The Emperor does not strike me as the kind of man that would force a sentient creature like the Imperial Dragon to work with him. The man is also noted to be a amazing diplomat and the read of things I have always had when it comes to his relationship with the Imperial is that he is the first human that the Dragon has come to think of as a kind of equal. Dragon's respect power and the Emperor is not just a great warrior but also one of the most intelligent and clever statesman in the Old World.

The Imperial Dragon is known to sleep with his own horde and the people who run the Zoo have learned not to get the Zoo's most powerful resident upset.

Has killed imperials:
-Warhammer Fantasy Core Rulebook (8e) pg. 185

The Dragon has his very own horde and as the quite you just mentioned states he only kills human who fuck with him and his stuff.

Not sure giving a cantankerous fire breathing dragon to be tamed in a forest will work out well.

Dragons in the Old World can and have lived in Forests like the Drakwald and if we gave our new ally a piece of the forest and it's their to do with as they wish I don't the forest part of the equation would be the source of any problems

I understand that the Emperor of Sigmar's Empire has to use Sigmar's Holy Hammer, but man, Karl Franz is really banking on the enemy being tall enough to reach and slender enough to slide through the gap in between the wings and the body, isn't he? No whacking an orc, human, goblin, elf, skeleton, zombie, beastman, skaven, demon, elf or beastie for him during this battle.

In the Lore Karl and Deathclaw are note to be very good at working together on the battle field when they take the field together Karl trust his buddy to deal with the small stuff while he is using Gal-Maraz to take down things like Giants and Wyverns like at the Third Battle for Blackfire pass.

Kept under lock and key:
-Fall of Altdorf pg. 225-226

I really don't think you should be using the End Times as supporting evidence considering that it contradicts the already established lore of the Dragon having his own horde and the ability to kill stewards who fuck by for example treating him as just another dumb animal.

I don't, think they can casually do that. Even if we assume, assume, the Asrai are curious enough given it's Frederick von Hohenzollern involved, the dragons are still sapient with their own will, and directing them is usually in defense of the forest.

And of course there's the awkwardness that comes from putting further space between Asrai and Eonir.

If the Dragons of Athel Loren were informed that a Dragon Egg had been recovered from the hands of the Dark Elf's you don't think they would be in the least bit interested what happened to it.
 
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While I will give you Elspeth using magic to bind the Carmine Dragon that she rides on and even then it is never stated in the lore how exactly she gets the Dragon to work with her. Everyone who knows about her and the Dragon just thinks it's magic and leaves it at that because she is a figure of not a small bit of Terror and so people tend to leave her alone.

Karl-Franz on the other hand is noted as having raised DeathClaw himself from when the Griffion was just a egg and to have a amazing bond with him. Hell the 8th edition army book keeps the lore about Deathclaw being trusted to the simply fly around above Altdorf during the day because he can be trusted not to cause trouble. The Emperor does not strike me as the kind of man that would force a sentient creature like the Imperial Dragon to work with him. The man is also noted to be a amazing diplomat and the read of things I have always had when it comes to his relationship with the Imperial is that he is the first human that the Dragon has come to think of as a kind of equal. Dragon's respect power and the Emperor is not just a great warrior but also one of the most intelligent and clever statesman in the Old World.

The Imperial Dragon is known to sleep with his own horde and the people who run the Zoo have learned not to get the Zoo's most powerful resident upset.



The Dragon has his very own horde and as the quite you just mentioned states he only kills human who fuck with him and his stuff.



Dragons in the Old World can and have lived in Forests like the Drakwald and if we gave our new ally a piece of the forest and it's their to do with as they wish I don't the forest part of the equation would be the source of any problems



In the Lore Karl and Deathclaw are note to be very good at working together on the battle field when they take the field together Karl trust his buddy to deal with the small stuff while he is using Gal-Maraz to take down things like Giants and Wyverns like at the Third Battle for Blackfire pass.



I really don't think you should be using the End Times as supporting evidence considering that it contradicts the already established lore of the Dragon having his own horde and the ability to kill stewards who fuck by for example treating him as just another dumb animal.



If the Dragons of Athel Loren we informed that a Dragon Egg had been recovered from the hands of the Dark Elf's you don't think they would be in the least bit interested in what happened to it.

You bring up Karl and Deathclaw a lot, but you gotta remember, a Gryphon and a Dragon are two extremely different beasts, not just physically, but mentally as well. Gryphons are, at the end of the day, still animals. Incredibly intelligent animals, but they are not comparable to the intelligence of people, and explicitly described as sentient, like Warhammer dragons. Both Deathclaw and Oskana were trained, like you'd train a dog or a horse. Can still have a bond with those animals, of course, but that doesn't mean they weren't explicitly raised and trained to think and act a certain way. And when the text explicitly states that Karl was "the only who could dominate the dragon's will" I tend to trust that the text meant that Karl had such a strong force of personality that he was able to force the dragon to work with him.

If they'd struck up a partnership, the dragon wouldn't have been in a cage, and there wouldn't be a ton of dead stewards who, rather than "fuck with him" were probably killed while trying to do their job of caring for the dragon, such as feeding it. Given that they're described as incautious, I'm imagining stewards who got a bit too close to the cage and were burnt to a crisp or snapped up into its jaws the second they were within range. Doesn't paint a good picture of the dragon's temperament. And it was probably given its own hoard so it wouldn't try to break out of its cage and wreak havoc, like how real life zoo animals might be given toys and stuff to entertain themselves with in their exhibits.
 
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The real concern is the druchii of the two Black Arks did not send two Black Arks onto Salkalten for a milk run. There is no retreat here for the druhii. Their pride is going to demand they bury Salkalten. To do something to transform their bruised ego into satisfaction. Unless Freddy is dead, I don't see how the druchii could ever order a retreat no matter how badly they may be handling things.

My concern is the druchii would rig the Black Arks to explode in a dhar explosion when they confirm they have lost without being able to significantly harm Ostland.

The Druchii if they think the battle is going against them are very much capable of just retreating to the Arks and pulling back out to sea, that's one of the reasons we told our Naval forces not to engage and instead arrive after they have made land fall. The Dark Elves present for this battle unless they are overwhelmed with bloodlust are perfectly capable of cutting their losses and leaving. The Witch King might be pissed at the lost resources but is not for example going to try and kill Khaine's Chosen blade in the world for a failure like this could be.

And when the text explicitly states that Karl was "the only who could dominate the dragon's will" I tend to trust that the text meant that Karl had such a strong force of personality that he was able to force the dragon to work with him.

Dragons are intelligent creatures if Karl was able to convince the Dragon to work with him because of the Strength of his Personality which would be referring to how persuasive and cunning he is a diplomat then that means the Dragon respects him. Because I bet you others had tried to force the Dragon to let them ride and failed. The only reason that the Emperor is able to ride the Imperial Dragon without getting tossed of at 10,000 feet in the air is because the Dragon is allowing it. No magic being involved means it has to be a partnership of some kind.

The Dragon being chained up in a cage all the time in the End Times stuff also directly contradicts the lore as stated here. The fact that it says the Dragon is only occasionally

Resents being a zoo animal:
The Imperial Dragon is also housed here occasionally, but utterly resents the indignity.

-Altdorf: Crown of the Empire pg. 103

The fact that it says the Dragon is only occasionally housed in the Zoo means that that his resenting have to spend time leaving near what he would consider animals makes perfect sense. It like I would be upset if I had to sleep in a barn which a bunch of pigs and goats instead of inside with other people for a couple of weeks. The Dragon also clear has other places to live if they are only occasionally housed inside the Zoo's grounds.
 
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Dragons are intelligent creatures if Karl was able to convince the Dragon to work with him because of the Strength of his Personality which would be referring to how persuasive and cunning he is a diplomat then that means the Dragon respects him. Because I bet you others had tried to force the Dragon to let them ride and failed. The only reason that the Emperor is able to ride the Imperial Dragon without getting tossed of at 10,000 feet in the air is because the Dragon is allowing it. No magic being involved means it has to be a partnership of some kind.

The Dragon being chained up in a cage all the time in the End Times stuff also directly contradicts the liar as stated here,

Resents being a zoo animal:



-Altdorf: Crown of the Empire pg. 103

Like I said, if there was a proper partnership, it wouldn't be caged up to begin with. That it is housed in a cage in the Imperial Zoo at all while clearly hating the arrangement, to the point that I doubt it would choose to be there if there was a way for it to not be in there, is extremely indicative of the fact that no, Karl Franz did not diplomatize the dragon, but was instead able to force it, and dominate it, into doing what he wanted it to do as a mount. The text seems pretty clear that it's more of a "Karl is just that much of a chad that he's able to force the cantankerous dragon to be his mount" moment than anything else
 
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Karl Franz did not diplomatize the dragon, but was instead able to force it, and dominate it, into doing what he wanted it to do as a mount

How do you think he "forced" the Dragon that no one else before him had convinced to work for them with out magic except by talking to and actually interacting with Dragon. It's not like he could have walked up to the Dragon and said you are going to do what I say and the Dragon just went sure boss. That sounds like a good way to get turned to ash with dragon fire.

Also you keep bring up a cage and chains when that only show up in one place which is the horrible written End Times stuff which does not really fit with what had already been established in the lore.
 
While I will give you Elspeth using magic to bind the Carmine Dragon that she rides on and even then it is never stated in the lore how exactly she gets the Dragon to work with her. Everyone who knows about her and the Dragon just thinks it's magic and leaves it at that because she is a figure of not a small bit of Terror and so people tend to leave her alone.
But it is stated.

"enslaved to her will by the Amethyst Magic that ran like blood through its veins".

Karl-Franz on the other hand is noted as having raised DeathClaw himself from when the Griffion was just a egg and to have a amazing bond with him. Hell the 8th edition army book keeps the lore about Deathclaw being trusted to the simply fly around above Altdorf during the day because he can be trusted not to cause trouble. The Emperor does not strike me as the kind of man that would force a sentient creature like the Imperial Dragon to work with him. The man is also noted to be a amazing diplomat and the read of things I have always had when it comes to his relationship with the Imperial is that he is the first human that the Dragon has come to think of as a kind of equal. Dragon's respect power and the Emperor is not just a great warrior but also one of the most intelligent and clever statesman in the Old World.
Yeah, Karl Franz has an amazing bond with Deathclaw, who is a griffon, not a dragon. Dragons are substantially more intelligent and independent than Griffons. At the end of the day Karl Franz is still the master and Deathclaw is still the mount.

The Empire is not some enlightened society, there is no reason to believe Karl Franz considers dragons to be people. He lives in a culture that is perfectly content to disregard fully intelligent beings as not people, why would he think the Imperial Dragon to be a person to be respected, rather than a particularly intelligent beast to be tamed?

In fact we have a lot of reasons to believe he doesn't, because we know that the Imperial Dragon hates being a zoo animal, but it's kept there anyway. If Karl Franz was friends with it, why would he subject it to something that it "utterly resents"? Or if it was allowed to leave, why would it go through something that it hates?

And again, the lore says "dominate". Not "maintain a relationship of mutual respect and regard each other as equals". Dominate.

dominate

1
: RULE, CONTROL
an empire that dominated the world

2
: to exert the supreme determining or guiding influence on
the ambition that has dominated his life

3
: to overlook from a superior elevation or command because of superior height or position
a hill that dominates the town

4
a
:
to be predominant in
sugar maples dominate the forest
b
:
to have a commanding or preeminent place or position in
name brands dominate the market


1
: to have or exert mastery, control, or preeminence
his desire to dominate
a dominating factor in industrial growth

2
: to occupy a more elevated or superior position

In fact, we know that expanding the Imperial Zoo is one of Karl's personal passions:

Emperor Karl Franz has few eccentricities, but amongst his fervent passions is the furtherance of the Imperial Zoo, a vast complex of beast-pens and mosaic-covered caverns. Within its halls reside strange creatures that have been given as gifts by foreign potentates or hunted and captured from the hidden corners of the world.
-Warhammer Fantasy Core Rulebook (8e) pg.185

Does that sound like the kind of person who'd go "Yes my dragon friend, I see that you would like to break off our partnership and leave. I shall allow you to take your vast hoard of imperial heirlooms with you as you go, and let the millions of gold coins that went into your raising, feeding and housing go to waste, as well as deprive my pet prestige project of its most famous attraction. All because I respect you as a friend and an equal."

The Dragon has his very own horde and as the quite you just mentioned states he only kills human who fuck with him and his stuff.
I really don't think you should be using the End Times as supporting evidence considering that it contradicts the already established lore of the Dragon having his own horde and the ability to kill stewards who fuck by for example treating him as just another dumb animal.
I used the End Times novel because it's one of the only sources on the Imperial Dragon, and far from contradicting the established lore it actively agrees with it.

Just because Martak's narration doesn't mention the hoard doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and the existence of the hoard doesn't prove anything other than that they gave it a hoard to keep it occupied. We give zoo animals toys to enrich them and keep them from trying to damage their enclosures in real life too, doesn't mean we consider them partners or that we'd allow them to leave if they wanted.

And note how it says "incautious", not "foolish" or "dumb". The Imperial Dragon kills stewards who aren't cautious enough, indicating that it kills anyone who strays too close, not just those that "mess with it". Which Fall of Altdorf agrees with, as it indicates Martak had to pacify the Imperial Dragon with Ghur to keep it from killing him. But Fall of Altdorf is by no means central to my argument, just a reinforcing facet. It can stand on its own just using the canon material.

No magic being involved means it has to be a partnership of some kind.
Who says there's no magic involved? As the Emperor Karl has unfettered access to the services of eight Colleges of Magic. And even if there isn't, that doesn't mean that their relationship is some sort of shining example of interspecies friendship between equals, considering the Imperial Dragon's hoard is deep within the Imperial Zoo and it can't exactly take it with it when they go flying, so if it decides to disobey Karl's commands he can just go "yeah then say goodbye to your hoard".

And once more, all we know for sure about their relationship is that he dominates the Imperial Dragon. Not partners or is friends with it.
 
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How do you think he "forced" the Dragon that no one else before him had convinced to work for them with out magic except by talking to and actually interacting with Dragon. It's not like he could have walked up to the Dragon and said you are going to do what I say and the Dragon just went sure boss. That sounds like a good way to get turned to ash with dragon fire.

Also you keep bring up a cage and chains when that only show up in one place which is the horrible written End Times stuff which does not really fit with what had already been established in the lore.

Even disregarding the End Times stuff, the mere fact that it's kept in the Imperial Zoo is evidence enough that the dragon is kept in a cage. I guess we could call it an enclosure if you'd like, but the fact of the matter is that zoos are places full of caged animals, and the dragon is a resident of the Imperial Zoo. And who knows the specifics of how Karl dominated the dragon? Maybe he just walked up to it, stared into its eyes, and said he's gonna ride this thing while having the confidence of a god. Maybe he had help from the Colleges. The method doesn't matter, what matters is that the text explicitly says that he dominated the dragon. Not craft some sort of agreement with it, cause you know if there was an agreement the dragon's first stipulation would be "Let me out of this fucking Zoo", not make nice with it. The text says he dominated the dragon somehow, and thus, Karl Franz dominated the dragon.
 
In fact we have a lot of reasons to believe he doesn't, because we know that the Imperial Dragon hates being a zoo animal, but it's kept there anyway. If Karl Franz was friends with it, why would he subject it to something that it "utterly resents"? Or if it was allowed to leave, why would it go through something that it hates

The quote says the the Dragon is only occasionally housed inside the grounds of the Zoo not that it's there all the time. Also the quote says it resent the indignity of having to stay their at times not that it hates it. Karl also has access to the Amber Brotherhood who would confirm that the Dragon is a sentient being. The man has also interacted with the High Elves enough that they would know he has ridden a Dragon and they would also make clear is a sentient being. The common folk of the Empire many think of Dragons as simple beasts but those with a actually education know that they are ancient being with minds as a vast an humans. There are even records of dragon speaking to humans before they destroy a bunch of stuff. A good example is this Statement from the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition: Old World Bestiary (RPG) book.

"When the Old Ones first crafted their Gates from the substance of stars, I was there to assist their labour. Down the long ages I have come, watching the rise and fall of you lesser races and your civilisations. I've laid waste to knights and cities, burned fields and routed armies in my years. I could tell you much of the world that you have forgotten and more that you never knew, but I think not. You and yours are suited for nothing more than to provide me with amusement and the occasional graceful bauble for my lair. I see little else worthwhile about you."
BRINRAIRDIH, ALSO KNOWN AS THE "THE STORM THAT ROARS," ANCIENT WYRM[2C]

Also considering that the Zoo has become over the years a major source of powerful mounts for the Empire's warrior's it makes perfect sense that he as a competent warrior who has firsthand experience how useful a Griffion is in war would want to expand the Zoo size. Him wanting to expand the size of the Zoo's operations does not support a claim that he would not know that Dragons are as aware of the world around them as any human.

Who says there's no magic involved? Karl has unfettered access to the services of eight Colleges of Magic. And even if there isn't, that doesn't mean that their relationship is some sort of shining example of interspecies friendship between equals, considering the Imperial Dragon's hoard is deep within the Imperial Zoo and it can't exactly take it with it when they go flying, so if it decides to disobey Karl's commands he can just go "yeah then say goodbye to your hoard".

It says he he was able to do it because of the Strength of his Personality so unless Karl's personality is being boosted by magic I don't know why you think magic was involved when one of the things that people talk about in the lore when it comes to the Emperor is his strength of will and intellect.
 
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The quote says the the Dragon is only occasionally housed inside the grounds of the Zoo not that it's there all the time. Also the quote says it resent the indignity of having to stay their at times not that it hates it.
And it says that it utterly resents the indignity of being displayed in a zoo. What else do you call that but hate? And again to reiterate, if it was friends with Karl Franz, why would he force it do things it utterly resents?

The quote says the the Dragon is only occasionally housed inside the grounds of the Zoo not that it's there all the time. Also the quote says it resent the indignity of having to stay their at times not that it hates it. Karl also has access to the Amber Brotherhood who would confirm that the Dragon is a sentient being. The man has also interacted with the High Elves enough that they would know he has ridden a Dragon and they would also make clear is a sentient being. The common folk of the Empire many think of Dragons as simple beasts but those with a actually education know that they are ancient being with minds as a vast an humans. There are even records of dragon speaking to humans before they destroy a bunch of stuff. A good example is this Statement from the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition: Old World Bestiary (RPG) book.

"When the Old Ones first crafted their Gates from the substance of stars, I was there to assist their labour. Down the long ages I have come, watching the rise and fall of you lesser races and your civilisations. I've laid waste to knights and cities, burned fields and routed armies in my years. I could tell you much of the world that you have forgotten and more that you never knew, but I think not. You and yours are suited for nothing more than to provide me with amusement and the occasional graceful bauble for my lair. I see little else worthwhile about you."
BRINRAIRDIH, ALSO KNOWN AS THE "THE STORM THAT ROARS," ANCIENT WYRM[2C]
Knowing that it's intelligent ≠ considering it a person worthy of respect and rights. There's plenty of things in Warhammer Fantasy that are intelligent but don't get treated like people. In a lot of cases this doesn't even extend to all social classes, let alone different species, and most of the Empire's interactions with dragons are them going on incredibly destructive rampages before being hunted down by a dragonslayer.

Also considering that the Zoo has become over the years a major source of powerful mounts for the Empire's warrior's it makes perfect sense that he as a competent warrior who has firsthand experience how useful a Griffion is in war would want to expand the Zoo size. Him wanting to expand the size of the Zoo's operations does not support a claim that he would not know that Dragons are as aware of the world around them as any human.
No but it does support the claim that he has a strong motive to not let the dragon just leave if it wanted to.

It says he he was able to do it because of the Strength of his Personality so unless Karl's personality is being boosted by magic I don't know why you think magic was involved when on of the things that people talk about in the lore when it comes to the Emperor is his strength of will and intellect.
Strength of will, not personality. And that comes into play if he's the only one crazy enough to try blackmailing or compelling a dragon to let you ride it.

The passage says nothing about them being happy go lucky best pals, in fact it says the exact opposite.
 
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The quote says the the Dragon is only occasionally housed inside the grounds of the Zoo not that it's there all the time. Also the quote says it resent the indignity of having to stay their at times not that it hates it. Karl also has access to the Amber Brotherhood who would confirm that the Dragon is a sentient being. The man has also interacted with the High Elves enough that they would know he has ridden a Dragon and they would also make clear is a sentient being. The common folk of the Empire many think of Dragons as simple beasts but those with a actually education know that they are ancient being with minds as a vast an humans. There are even records of dragon speaking to humans before they destroy a bunch of stuff. A good example is this Statement from the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition: Old World Bestiary (RPG) book.

"When the Old Ones first crafted their Gates from the substance of stars, I was there to assist their labour. Down the long ages I have come, watching the rise and fall of you lesser races and your civilisations. I've laid waste to knights and cities, burned fields and routed armies in my years. I could tell you much of the world that you have forgotten and more that you never knew, but I think not. You and yours are suited for nothing more than to provide me with amusement and the occasional graceful bauble for my lair. I see little else worthwhile about you."
BRINRAIRDIH, ALSO KNOWN AS THE "THE STORM THAT ROARS," ANCIENT WYRM[2C]

Also considering that the Zoo has become over the years a major source of powerful mounts for the Empire's warrior's it makes perfect sense that he as a competent warrior who has firsthand experience how useful a Griffion is in war would want to expand the Zoo size. Him wanting to expand the size of the Zoo's operations does not support a claim that he would not know that Dragons are as aware of the world around them as any human.



It says he he was able to do it because of the Strength of his Personality so unless Karl's personality is being boosted by magic I don't know why you think magic was involved when one of the things that people talk about in the lore when it comes to the Emperor is his strength of will and intellect.

The Emperor has also interacted with Bretonnians, but that doesn't mean he thinks peasants are inferior trash. Just because he's interacted with certain groups doesn't mean he suddenly adopted their ideals and beliefs on the spot. He'd be a pretty shite Emperor if he did. There's quite literally no reason to assume Karl has any of the respect for dragons as sentient creatures that Elves do (considering he's not an Elf) especially when, as far as we know, the Imperial Dragon is the only dragon he's interacted with that wasn't trying to actively eat him. It's not like he's gone to Ulthuan and roamed Caledor, meeting the dragons there. And really, the text line "he dominated the dragon" isn't really open to interpretation. The word dominate has a very clear definition, and that definition does not mean "actually make friends with it and strike a deal". If it did, then the dragon would never be in the zoo ever, because it's extremely clear that it hates being there even temporarily, and if Karl and the dragon were friends, he wouldn't do that to his homie. It's also not sourced from something like the Liber Necris, which we know was meant to be seen as biased and unreliable, so we can safely take the statement as fact as well.
 
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Charitably speaking since we know that Franz isn't using magic to control the dragon but rather the force of his personality, the term "dominate" could also be used to express that the dragon sees Franz as so formidable that he sees him as a person that's dominant over him out of respect.

The part about the dragon hating the Imperial Zoo is pretty clear though.
 
Charitably speaking since we know that Franz isn't using magic to control the dragon but rather the force of his personality, the term "dominate" could also be used to express that the dragon sees Franz as so formidable that he sees him as a person that's dominant over him out of respect.

The part about the dragon hating the Imperial Zoo is pretty clear though.
I wonder what sort of accomodations would a dragon give a 5star rating to?🤔
 
Does the way Karl Franz felt about the Imperial Dragon actually matter? I expect if we gifted this dragon egg to Magnus he'd treat it well and it'd probably end up with the Amber College after his death like he apparently plans for his gryphon so... Not sure how it's relevant?
 
Does the way Karl Franz felt about the Imperial Dragon actually matter? I expect if we gifted this dragon egg to Magnus he'd treat it well and it'd probably end up with the Amber College after his death like he apparently plans for his gryphon so... Not sure how it's relevant?
It came up within regards to the argument that trying to keep the dragon for ourselves would have substantial problems due to dragons not naturally being inclined towards listening to orders from mortals, and may just want to leave to do its own thing rather than live as the Hohenzollerns' glorified pet lizard. So unless we want to coerce it into service there's no guarantee of return on the massive investment we'd have to make to raise a dragon, whereas the elves have the existing cultural context and knowledge base for raising and working with dragons, and other dragons for it to socialize with.

The Imperial Dragon and Karl Franz were brought up as a counterexample of how the Empire in canon figured out how to work with dragons so we would totally be able to do the same, to which people then pointed out that the Imperial Dragon is a glorified pet lizard, is not happy about that fact, and has killed multiple people.
 
Yeah as fond as I am of the idea of us adopting a dragon, that the Imperial Dragon lives in unwilling captivity does take the winds out of my sails a bit. Giving it to the Asur seems to be increasingly preferable. They would be able to pay the most and if the egg actually is tainted then the Everqueen would be the person most capable of treating it.
 
If Karl Franz was friends with it, why would he subject it to something that it "utterly resents"? Or if it was allowed to leave, why would it go through something that it hates?
Same reason why you force children to eat veggies. Or stop a brother about to ruin his life for a woman that doesn't love him. t's good for them.

Being a friend isn't the same as being a push over. The dragon understands the pecking order and will put up with the status quo since it's also benefiting him.... Even if he does have to sleep so close to stinky human sheep.
the Everqueen would be the person most capable of treating it.
MILITANT EVERQUEEN ON ULTRA MASSIVE PURIFIED BLACK DRAGON.

It is named Fredrick.
 
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Same reason why you force children to eat veggies. Or stop a brother about to ruin his life for a woman that doesn't love him. t's good for them.

Being a friend isn't the same as being a push over. The dragon understands the pecking order and will put up with the status quo since it's also benefiting him.... Even if he does have to sleep so close to stinky human sheep.
...Are you really trying to say that putting a sapient being in an enclosure and showing it off to gawking nobles against its will is comparable to forcing children eat their veggies? o_O

Seriously, how the hell is it "good for" the dragon?
 
Hot take: give the egg to Yhanna Sunweaver.

Not only is she the presiding priest for Freddy's soul marriage, but…

'Unnamed' Tree - Born of a serendipitous crossbreeding of Starwood and Wutroth trees, the first of its kind to ever exist, and the first outside of Laurelorn.
The Light of Summer
Artifact Talisman

Crafted at the height of summer by the High Spellweaver of Laurelorn

She doesn't have a notable mount now right?
 
Also, I would like to point out that the original Black Dragons were made from eggs stolen from Caledor, and the Druchii keep sending Shades to try to steal new ones to make more.

The High Elves have the best claim on the egg imho, and the Ulthuani Dragons would probably be very interested in seeing one of the lost ones returned and purified, even if it's several generations afterward from the original stolen eggs.
 
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Also, I would like to point out that the original Black Dragons were made from eggs stolen from Caledor, and the Druchii keep sending Shades to try to steal new ones to make more.

The High Elves have the best claim on the egg imho, and the Ulthuani Dragons would probably be very interested in seeing one of the lost ones returned and purified, even if it's several generations afterward from the original stolen eggs.

If we're talking about who has the "most natural" right to the dragon egg, as opposed to just who happens to be holding it, then I imagine that it would be neither the Asur or the Druchii, but its parents, since dragons are sapient and the egg is their young.

Mind, the eggs parents, even if they aren't the dragons that died here are certain to be in service to the Druchii, so I doubt we're going to be giving it back to them since its even odds between the Druchii raising the egg as another war beast or turning it into an omelette.
 
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If we're talking about who has the "most natural" right to the dragon egg, as opposed to just who happens to be holding it, then I imagine that it would be neither the Asur or the Druchii, but the dragon that laid the egg, since dragons are sapient and the egg is its young.

Mind, the dragon that laid the egg even if it isn't one of the dragons that died here is certain to be in service to the Druchii, so I doubt we're going to be giving it back to them since its even odds between the Druchii raising it as another war beast or turning it into an omelette.
I mean yes, its parents would have the best claim, but the parents are either dead, tortured into insanity, or otherwise enslaved by the Druchii, and as they aren't really in a position to take care of the egg I didn't really consider them being in the running.

Or it's theoretically possible it's a recently stolen egg, but I find that highly unlikely.
 
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