I mean yes, its parents would have the best claim, but the parents are either dead, tortured into insanity, or otherwise enslaved by the Druchii, and as they aren't really in a position to take care of the egg I didn't really consider them being in the running.

Or it's theoretically possible it's a recently stolen egg, but I find that highly unlikely.

My point is that given how Caledor views dragons as their own fully realized persons I doubt even they would agree with them having "a claim" on the egg, since the egg is a person, not a possession. Some of its family, if there are any in Caledor, may want custody though.
 
My point is that given how Caledor views dragons as their own fully realized persons I doubt even they would agree with them having "a claim" on the egg, since the egg is a person, not a possession. Some of its family, if there are any in Caledor, may want custody though.
I meant it as in the High Elves would have the greatest claim because they would reunite it with its kin, not because it belongs to them like a possession. Because the dragons of Caledor are not here to represent themselves and we can't really contact them directly.
 
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Frederick von Hohenzollern, holding a (Black) Dragon Egg: "I need advice on raising a dragon, but I've pissed off the Caledorians so there's no help there."

Snorri Giftgiver, surrounded by three tame Elder Shard Dragons; "Hmmm. What'd you do to the Elgi?"

Frederick: "Punched a Prince in the face."

Snorri: "Hmph. Good enough, I suppose."

Made in honour of the fact both threads are dealing with The Dragon Egg Question
 
Reading again through the Kessel interlude and it seems he completely wiped out the entire druchii force that was sent against him down to the last elf.

I find it amusing that while some of the elves attacking us will probably return on the battered Arks with stories about how terrible the fighting was, how prepared this mad human was, how he cut off a dragon's dicks, etc, all they're going to know about Nordland for a while is they sent 2 large fleets at them and then none of the elves in those fleets were ever heard from again.

That honestly sounds even scarier
 
...Are you really trying to say that putting a sapient being in an enclosure and showing it off to gawking nobles against its will is comparable to forcing children eat their veggies? o_O

Seriously, how the hell is it "good for" the dragon?
The zoo provides gold and security for the hoard, imperial prestige, college magical support, varieties of food, high level security, comfort, access to whatever the dragon may want, and it doesn't stop the dragon from simply leaving.

The annoying visitors and occasional threats are nothing when compared to the stuff faced by a dragon in the wild.

A dragon has pride, but that is paired with intelligence and a nose for a good deal.
Reading again through the Kessel interlude and it seems he completely wiped out the entire druchii force that was sent against him down to the last elf.
He finally got to show his video game protagonist skills.
 
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The whining about selling the Dragon is kind of lame.

I do not want the optimal choice for action economy or to fill up the bank coffers.

I want interesting and fun things in Freddie's Quest!

A Dragon as an Adopted Son of Freddie would be great fun!

A Dawi equipped Dragon Noble with their own Lands would be Awesome!

DRAGON HOHENZOLLERN!!!

DAWI-FRIEND DRAGON!!!

INTERESTING!!!
 
You know how it's a touristy thing to throw coins in fountains and pools?

Could there be an Altdorf tradition where you give a coin the Dragon?

I would do it
 
I'm pretty sure it actually does, thats one of the main sticking points
It knows that if it leaves and starts eating people then it gets hunted.
That has long ceased being a sticking point after it realized that.
You know how it's a touristy thing to throw coins in fountains and pools?

Could there be an Altdorf tradition where you give a coin the Dragon?

I would do it
Alot of us would.
The whining about selling the Dragon is kind of lame.

I do not want the optimal choice for action economy or to fill up the bank coffers.

I want interesting and fun things in Freddie's Quest!

A Dragon as an Adopted Son of Freddie would be great fun!

A Dawi equipped Dragon Noble with their own Lands would be Awesome!

DRAGON HOHENZOLLERN!!!

DAWI-FRIEND DRAGON!!!

INTERESTING!!!
Dragon quest!
Name him Freddie!
 
The zoo provides gold and security for the hoard, imperial prestige, college magical support, varieties of food, high level security, comfort, access to whatever the dragon may want, and it doesn't stop the dragon from simply leaving.

The annoying visitors and occasional threats are nothing when compared to the stuff faced by a dragon in the wild.

A dragon has pride, but that is paired with intelligence and a nose for a good deal.
It knows that if it leaves and starts eating people then it gets hunted.
That has long ceased being a sticking point after it realized that.
Except none of that is true, you just came up with it. The imperial dragon, according to canon, explicitly utterly resents the indignity of being a zoo animal.

And it literally does eat people if they're not cautious enough around it.
 
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Being charitable again, the dragon both resenting living in the Zoo and doing so willingly due to it being a more comfortable way to make a living then living in the wilds aren't mutually exclusive. Quite a few people stay in jobs they aren't fond of because they prefer making a living that way to being unemployed.

Though that does make me wonder, how do dragons in Ulthuan pay their living expenses? Presumably a dragon that goes to war would be handsomely compensated, but presumably the Asur won't make a dragon that doesn't want to fight go to war, in which case how do those make a living? Do the Asur just subsidize all their living expenses for free?
 
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Being charitable again, the dragon both resenting living in the Zoo and doing so willingly do to it being a more comfortable way to make a living then living in the wilds aren't mutually exclusive. Quite a few people stay in jobs they aren't fond of because they prefer making a living that way to being unemployed.
I really have a hard time seeing the justification for twisting "dominate" and "utterly resents" into "actually, it's just like a job", especially given how dragons are noted to be prideful and willful creatures by nature.

Though that does make me wonder, how do dragons in Ulthuan pay their living expenses? Presumably a dragon that goes to war would be handsomely compensated, but presumably the Asur won't make a dragon that doesn't want to fight go to war, in which case how do those make a living? Do the Asur just subsidize all their living expenses for free?
According to the novels, they live in the Dragonspine Mountains and hunt for food in the wild. I'm not really sure what other living expenses a dragon would have?
 
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I really have a hard time seeing the justification for twisting "dominate" and "utterly resents" into "actually, it's just like a job", especially given how dragons are noted to be prideful and willful creatures by nature.

It's specifically stated that Franz dominates the dragon with his force of will and personality though, not violent force. What do you think dominating someone with "force of will" means?

According to the novels, they live in the Dragonspine Mountains and hunt for food in the wild. I'm not really sure what other living expenses a dragon would have?

One wonders. Do dragons need healthcare? Do they need courts and lawyers to settle who gets custody of dragon eggs in situations like the egg we found? What about booze? Surely in this quest at least there are some booze loving dragons? What about spices? Do dragons have no interest in spices that could make their meals more flavorable?

That's not even considering how in Warhammer dragons are naturally inclined to form hoards, possibly as a way to attract mates. Where are they getting all that gold from? Who surveys lands for ore deposits? Who mines the gold? Who processes the ore into hoardable gold? Who transports all of that gold into their lairs?
 
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It's specifically stated that Franz dominates the dragon with his force of will and personality though, not violent force. What do you think dominating someone with "force of will" means?
No, specifically it says only he has the strength of will to dominate it, not that he somehow uses his strength of will directly to dominate it like he's a telepath or something, and personality is never even mentioned. To me that reads like he's the only one who's crazy enough to try forcing a dragon to do his bidding, while leaving the specific methods up to air whether that be violence, threats of violence, coercion, magic, or some other method. But regardless of what it is the word choice of domination does not imply its a happy or voluntary relationship on the part of the Imperial Dragon. You do not "dominate" your employee to get them to do humiliating things for you.

But if you absolutely want me to speculate, I would suggest it's coercion through holding the Imperial Dragon's hoard hostage, but I'm not particularly wedded to that specific idea.

One wonders. Do dragons need healthcare? Though do they need courts to settle who gets custody of dragon eggs in situations like the egg we found? What about booze? Surely in this quest at least there's some booze loving dragons?
Well, presumably if the dragons asked for help the elves would give it out of respect for their ancient alliance.

Why a hoard of course. Dragons use them to attract mates IIRC.
That's not even considering how in Warhammer dragons are naturally inclined to form hoards, possibly as a way to attract mates. Where are they getting all that gold from? Who surveys lands for ore deposits? who process the ore into hoardable gold? Who transports all of that gold to their lairs?
Hoards are a topic that's never really touched upon for Ulthuani dragons, so I don't really know one way or another.
 
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Well, presumably if the dragons asked for help the elves would give it out of respect for their ancient alliance.
So this?
Do the Asur just subsidize all their living expenses for free?


No, specifically it says only he has the strength of will to dominate it, not that he somehow uses his strength of will directly to dominate it, and personality is never even mentioned. To me that reads like he's the only one who's crazy enough to try forcing a dragon to do his bidding, while leaving the specific methods up to air whether that be violence, threats of violence, coercion, magic, or some other method.
You appear to be correct. Looking at the wiki the exact quote seems to be that "Only Franz has the force of will." rather then that Franz dominates him through force of will. Mea culpa on that one. I still doubt its magic that Franz uses since then it would be the magisters "dominating" the dragon rather then Franz himself but it does make for some less charitable reading of what goes on between Franz and the dragon.


But regardless of what it is the word choice of domination does not imply its a happy or voluntary relationship on the part of the Imperial Dragon. You do not "dominate" your employee to get them to do humiliating things for you.

Something being "dominant" does not necessarily imply violent or oppressive connotations. The definition of "dominant", per the cambridge dictionary, is: "more important, strong, or noticeable then anything else of the same type." When we refer to "dominant" genes we don't call them that because they're violent towards recessive genes. Someone can be said to "dominate" a group, or "dominate" a game, because they're the most influential person in the group or the best in the game.

But if you absolutely want me to speculate, I personally believe it's coercion through holding the Imperial Dragon's hoard hostage, but I'm not particularly wedded to that specific idea.

I imagine that gold came from the Empire's coffers though. Franz giving the dragon gold from the Imperial treasury to make a hoard out could be considered to be a form of payment.
 
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And who knows the specifics of how Karl dominated the dragon? Maybe he just walked up to it, stared into its eyes, and said he's gonna ride this thing while having the confidence of a god. Maybe he had help from the Colleges. The method doesn't matter, what matters is that the text explicitly says that he dominated the dragon. Not craft some sort of agreement with it, cause you know if there was an agreement the dragon's first stipulation would be "Let me out of this fucking Zoo", not make nice with it. The text says he dominated the dragon somehow, and thus, Karl Franz dominated the dragon.

You bring up that he Dominates the Dragon by Strength of Will in the quote and then say we don't know the specifics of how he did it. The phrase Strength of will indicates it was and mental achievement that was not done with magic. If there was Magic involved then why not say magic was involved like with Elspeth and the Carmine Dragon. Also If the Amber Wizard know the Dragon is a Sentient creature then do you thing they would help enslave our or that Karl is the kind of person who would want to enslave something.
 
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Probably, yes.

I imagine that under Imperial law that hoard is government property since it was the Empire that financed it. Franz giving the dragon gold from the Imperial treasury to make a hoard out of is Franz paying him.
Only if imperial law recognizes dragons as people with rights to ownership and such. Which considering 99% of the Empire and the Dwarfs' interactions with dragons consists of them being rampaging monsters, I rather doubt. A less charitable reading would be that it's like giving a squeaky toy to your dog. The dog has no legal ownership over the toy, nor any sort of legal rights to stop you from just taking it away whenever you feel like it.

But either way, the hoard is in the Imperial Zoo in the middle of Altdorf, and the dragon can't exactly take it with it if it's out flying with Karl or tries to leave. Like I mentioned earlier it would be easy for him to say "Do this or you're never seeing your hoard again." And again, I'm not particularly attached to that specific idea.

Something being "dominant" does necessarily imply violent or oppressive connotations. The definition of "dominant", per the cambridge dictionary, is: "more important, strong, or noticeable then anything else of the same type." When we refer to "dominant" genes we don't call them that because they're violent towards recessive genes. Someone can be said to "dominate" a group, or "dominate" a game, because they're the most influential person in the group or the best in the game.
"Dominant" might not but "to dominate someone" definitely does, especially when it's in the context of getting that someone else to do things they don't want to do and consider humiliating.
 
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Frederick von Hohenzollern, holding a (Black) Dragon Egg: "I need advice on raising a dragon, but I've pissed off the Caledorians so there's no help there."

Snorri Giftgiver, surrounded by three tame Elder Shard Dragons; "Hmmm. What'd you do to the Elgi?"

Frederick: "Punched a Prince in the face."

Snorri: "Hmph. Good enough, I suppose."

Made in honour of the fact both threads are dealing with The Dragon Egg Question

The really funny part is that we don't even have the egg yet here lmao. It's a neat thing about the power of dragon eggs really, they're like Cocoa Puffs for thread participants hahaha
 
Totally unrelated but now im picture the Arasai delegation during the elector meet stumbling into frederick, they did not figured out that yes the screaming murrder guy was in fact that important.



Arasai representative: What you are doing here?
Freddy: Me? The whole point of the elector meeting is that me and my peers be here, what you doing here?
 
Totally unrelated but now im picture the Arasai delegation during the elector meet stumbling into frederick, they did not figured out that yes the screaming murrder guy was in fact that important.



Arasai representative: What you are doing here?
Freddy: Me? The whole point of the elector meeting is that me and my peers be here, what you doing here?
What Asrai delegation? Or is the delegation itself hypothetical?
 
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