Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Droman said:
It worked for them, no different than Sigmar for Solland and so on.
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Not really. While Solland did fall, the Empire eventually reclaimed it. How's the reclaimation of Strigos going for Ushoran the last three thousand years? Though I would agree, and I imagine that many people in universe would agree that the cults failed in Solland, at least in the case of the Empire not all of Sigmar's realm was lost, something which can't be said about Strigos.

Droman said:
The only difference is that Strigos stood alone and the other places I mentioned didn't. The other gods had more room to fail, doesn't mean that the Strigany were wrong to trust their 'gods'.
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And that you know, it got put to the torch and hasn't existed for thousands of years in universe.

Again you said that the cult of the Strigoi made sense because Strigos worked. How does being a ravaged wasteland Strigos "working"? What are the services you said the Strigoi provided the people of Strigos if not protection, something which they are clearly described given a poor measure of.
 
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Question @torroar : in your opinion, did ghouls exist before Necromancy was created, or was it more Dhar that was central to their existence as you noted the connection to above?
 
It was paraphrased from NDM and Bestiary on Ghouls, for that section. Credit goes to those who wrote that stuff.

Now if ya'll will excuse me, I would like to go live my life for a bit. And I would VERY much appreciate if I didn't have to come back to ya'll insulting one another, throwing out slurs, or whatever, whether that's in a few hours, or tomorrow.

I'm fine with debate. I'm happy with debate. But make sure it stays debate, and not attacks on one another.
 
@torroar could you include the information inside these below quotes in the FAQ informational tab? Information on the Gods of Law is not frequently asked. However, the information itself is sorta in a grey area of "required info" vs "check the thread". Much as how the Lodge related sidestories showcasing significant important background intrigue stuff for Halflings was criticized for not being information Freddy was made aware of, while being accessible information in the sidestories and was outside Freddy's control. Information on the Gods of Law and how they work in this quest I feel is important enough to warrant the information being placed inside the FAQ informational instead of being left to the audience to look for in the thread chat.

So, uh, take and pick from the below quotes. Also, Iridescent and Incandescant/Incandescent. Phrasing is phrasing which is hard to word search specifically for when you don't know the QM used unique wording.
torroar said:
It was but a Finger of the Third, from back, many years ago during the Vampire War - as some of you might remember.

An inexpert attempt to draw in a new mortal servant, for which that Finger was punished and reduced to but a Nail for failure. The attempt should have been better done save for the fact that The Third was splitting its power between several outright Fists and more notable Fingers on tasks whose success varied greatly - and thus required a switching of attentions and empowerment depending on what options were actually involving success.

Still, the touch of the Third, or the First, is not something that leaves the soul easily even if it was done in violence and ended quickly. At the least, one of the other servants of the First or Third could see it even if others would miss it. Including the servants of the Interloper who - for all their hammers and big heavy books and altars - are not the best at seeing subtle changes.
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torroar said:
Also there was an Incandescant of Alluminas and a Fist of Solkan, two equivalents to Greater Daemons of the Gods of Law, doing their own shenanigans. Neither of them died, but the Incandescant almost did.
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torroar said:
The Iridescent, any Iridescent, is not a he, or a she. They are most unequivocally an it.

It serves the First Light, the Pure, the Illuminator. To even suggest that it was an equal to its God would be literal blasphemy.

Seriously.

Daemons often cackle about some day growing to be as power as their progenitors, Daemon Princes like to call themselves deitys in their own right, blah blah blah if I eat enough souls and steal enough power and get enough favor I can forever ascend upwards and blah blah.

Neither the Nails, Fingers, nor Fists of the Third do that.

Nor the Shining, the Luminous, or the Iridescents.

Or...well.

Anyway, they are what they are. If they are chosen then they advance. The idea of them doing so in some random movement, act, or thought, is anathema to the Gods of Law. Only when They decide something is it done, and that's the end of it. No 'I thought it would please you', or anything like that. They are so hard locked to the individual whims of The First or The Third that they can't imagine disobeying them, every actions is lockstep to Their wishes. You will never see a frenzied mob of servants to the Gods.

Well. You'll never much see a mob from The First or The Third. They don't play the game like that.
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torroar said:
Hmm. I recall sharing more Law lore with someone...ah, it was in PM. Wait one moment, please.

I give this to you as a late Christmas/Festivus/Holiday gift, and also because I can't manage an update tonight. I've got a 9 hour shift tomorrow and have to rest up.

Please note that this is all OOC, and almost no one in Karak Ungor would ever know this, come to know it, or make use of it. This is just a small lore dump. With certain restrictions.
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torroar said:
Right, so Gods of Law.

There's three of them, Alluminas, Arianka, and Solkan. They are everything the Gods of Chaos are not. You can find what little information is on them already on the internet so I won't repost that here, but for the purposes of the quest...

[PARAGRAPH REDACTED]

Unlike the Gods of Chaos, they do not have endless tides of daemons of greater and lesser varieties. To spread out that much power in semi-autonomy does not mesh with their portfolios. They enforce singular control - I suppose if you are aware of the Empyreal Tyrant of Warhammer 40k in fanon/quests - it's like that. Alluminas if he could would bathe the entire world in his pure unyielding Light that would reduce all movement, thought, action, everything to motionless Purity.

Because for him, to be Pure is to be unchanging, and the even the act of breathing and living at all in any manner whatsoever changes you. He despises all Four of the Chaos Gods for what they represent - in following Nurgle continual rot and rebirth angers him, experiencing ever new heights under Slaanesh disgusts him, growing stronger and spitting open bodies in the name of war under Khorne infuriates him, and obviously the Lord of Change that is Tzeentch especially catches his ire.

His realm, the Unchanging Plane is exactly that - a singular plane of pure white Light and nothing else. As in no time, space, movement, anything. As to how he and his servants can do anything, well, it's acceptable so long as it is in pursuit of the greater goal of CESSATION OF ALL BUT LIGHT.

Solkan is easier to understand, being Vengeance and all that. He is actually Law and Vengeance, so acts more understandably than his brother and wife - oh yeah, [REDACTED]

The issue at hand, of course, is that [REDACTED]

As for their 'servants':

They find, collect, contract, and then own mortal servants - in that these mortals are twisted and suitably 'different' and thus able to comprehend the barest threads of Law -, and as they infuse them with Their power and just as importantly control these servants steadily lose who they once were and become...well. I wouldn't call them daemons, but I suppose you could depending on how you consider creatures of the true Gods of the Warp either Chaos or Law based. Either way, where the Chaos Gods jealously and/or capriciously/and or randomly give out their favor and empowerment, the Gods of Law do it far less passionately. It's a numbers game to them without major emotional consideration...usually at least. There is a bit of self contradiction in every God for that is the nature of all things in the Warp. Either way, as time goes on they fill them with their power until all that is left is a vessel of barely autonomous power of the Gods who is far less self leading than a Chaotic Daemon Prince.

For Solkan, you have a steady progressions in Three, his holy number. A Nail of Vengeance, or Justice, or Order. Then at the discretion of the God that you serve/has chosen you - you will be advanced to a Finger of - so on and so forth. Which is the equivalent of a Champion of Chaos, basically. Then you are advanced to a Fist of Vengeance, etc. etc.

The important thing to remember, about this, is that it isn't a matter of proving yourself. Or performing some great deed or another. It is literally them outright shoving power into you because they want you to do something and you need that power to do the task they desire. One can be changed into a horrific expression of Law at the discretion of the Gods of Law without any consent or really discussion from you. It's sort of like being turned into a Spawn if you want to be fair about what happens to you, but at the same time they can remove that same infusion of power from you at the same time.

For Alluminas, you have Shining, the Luminous, or the Iridescents. Again, three, but unlike Solkan these are in fact simply three sets of One, in that each is different than the others, have different purposes, etc. Not a set of three, advancing in another set of three, thrice.

And they are not at all like Solkan's servants, who are usually people who swear themselves to him for a final powerup after which they are His forever and ever.

As inexplicable as Alluminas's creed and worship are, so too are how and when and the number of his servants. Each are individually incredibly powerful however as the Gods of Law can [REDACTED]. Chaotic Greater Daemons can be more powerful than peers, but that is usually based on them proving themselves as such, having eaten enough souls, etc. and gaining power from the Warp through that fashion. Or worship, etc. [REDACTED]

[REDACTED]

Anyway, [PARAGRAPH REDACTED]
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Czes said:
I'm still hoping for our own Elf horsies.
We just need to communicate in their language and then, surely, they will join our province.

My Druchii pony, my Druchii pony
What is friendship all about
My Druchii pony, my Druchii pony
Friendship is magic
I used to wonder what friendship could be
(My Druchii pony)
Until you all shared its magic with me
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Tbf, we'll need to get them drunk first among other things.

Look fam.

After all we've been through is beer not magic?
 
TheCynicalPogo said:
Well I mean, let's be real, someone made mistakes at some point if you're willingly worshipping undead horrors from your nightmares that tend to view you as livestock to protect and eventually feed upon
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*thinks carefully about how JC came back from the dead after three days and commanded his flock to drink of his blood and eat of his flesh*
*thinks very carefully about how angels always need to tell humans to not be afraid*

On a more serious note, the Strigoi didn't look like the Strigoi until after Strigos fell, I believe?
 
Droman said:
*thinks carefully about how JC came back from the dead after three days and commanded his flock to drink of his blood and eat of his flesh*
*thinks very carefully about how angels always need to tell humans to not be afraid*

On a more serious note, the Strigoi didn't look like the Strigoi until after Strigos fell, I believe?
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Ushoran did when he embraced his vampirism as opposed to hiding it for the court, and Vorag a little. At least from the novels I remember.

Looking especially monstrous has never been a Strigoi exclusive thing anyway, just look at Johanna. They just embody it.
 
I wonder what the actual reason behind this 'Cannibal Curse' is. I mean, as close as you can get to actual answers when it comes to Warhammer.

It seems like a universal human thing, not something restricted to humans under the purview of Morr. Unless there's the chance that Morr is just a face of, another section of, a greater god. But maybe we can look at irl examples of ritualistic cannibalism.

There's the idea that it's taking traits from that person, or allowing you to carry on a part of your family, there's a merging of a sort. So, with that in mind, maybe that's what's going on here. People in Warhammer are merging their souls, perhaps made easier by being the same species. But instead of gaining something, they lose something instead. Their souls are reaching out into the warp, where the dead body's soul is, and it's severed. That would explain the increasing hunger. They're missing part of themselves, and so desire more. They desire something only other people can provide.

I think that's an interesting idea. To be clear, I don't know if there's any other explanations for this. All this is just my own ramblings.
 
One thing I've never understood is what the difference between a ghoul and moungul is, both are humans that eat other humans and turn into monsters, but what decides what one?
 
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Vokivas said:
I wonder what the actual reason behind this 'Cannibal Curse' is. I mean, as close as you can get to actual answers when it comes to Warhammer.

It seems like a universal human thing, not something restricted to humans under the purview of Morr. Unless there's the chance that Morr is just a face of, another section of, a greater god.
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Putting Morr's origin as a Nehekaran god to the side for a sec, going by examples of other factions we have quite a few instances of cannibalism. So If there is a reason for Ghoul-ification, it can't be among them. Beastmen do it so often it's a staple. Same with the Norscan, their little diner in Marianburg specifically mentioned human meat isn't allowed. Drinking blood may be a Khorne thing, but if my memory serves eating humans is more Slaanesh's wheelhouse as 'breaking a taboo'. And Warriors of Chaos might have a piece or two of that sort of fluff, I dunno. Ogres make eating each other a contest and method of advancing in society. IIRC, Orcs have been known to throw a goblin or even a runty/dead boy in the cookpot when supplies run thin or someone starts getting mouthy. I haven't heard of any variety of Elf eating flesh, whether human or other elves, even when Dark Elves have a parallel society that's just as Chaos-happy as the Norscans.

So the only ones who get Ghouls are non-Chaos humans. For whatever reason serving the Dark Gods precludes one becoming a Ghoul. Maybe there is a god's hand at work, but given other lore for the Vampire Counts I'm wondering if the lack of a divine patron is maybe more the angle.
devo342 said:
One thing I've never understood is what the difference between a ghoul and moungul is, both are humans that eat others and turn into monsters, but what decides it?
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When death overtakes some of them, such is their desperation and malice that it lingers on after death, and the most destructive and insidious winds of magic are drawn to coil around their spirits to taint and saturate them. Then their cadavers are warped and twisted into inhuman proportions, and they become something neither ghost nor revenant - a terrifying mockery of life, a monstrous, razor-thin shadow of cold, dead flesh and frostbite-cracked bone, with a gaping maw of needle-teeth and a cavernous stomach that hangs open like a dreadful wound
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When a Ghoul becomes so saturated with Dhar that, when they finally die, they become an ethereal abomination unbound by the limits of flesh and reality.
 
Has anyone read that Neferata book? Time of Legends: Neferata (Novel) by Josh Raynolds, from what I've got second hand information on it details the events of how Strigos fell. It being a novel it's canonicity is optional, but still I wonder if anyone has read it and can clarify it's telling of how Strigos fell.
 
It's quite possible that cannibalism is an act that naturally resonates with/attracts Dhar, like how death attracts Shyish. Consuming someone is a twisted, perverse act after all.

And there would be Shyish in the dead body.
 
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Imperious said:
Again you said that the cult of the Strigoi made sense because Strigos worked. How does being a ravaged wasteland Strigos "working"?
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Can we disregard an idea that worked for centuries and then failed because of unrelated reasons as not working? In my opinion, if the outcome is all that matters, it's still too early to judge whether Strigos has ultimately failed, because it may yet rise again, much like the Empire did - though you can lean one way or the other. It doesn't really make sense to declare the current moment as the endpoint of considerations of worth.
 
agumentic said:
Can we disregard an idea that worked for centuries and then failed because of unrelated reasons as not working? In my opinion, if the outcome is all that matters, it's still too early to judge whether Strigos has ultimately failed, because it may yet rise again, much like the Empire did - though you can lean one way or the other. It doesn't really make sense to declare the current moment as the endpoint of considerations of worth.
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The reasons are not unrelated though? If there was any service that the Strigoi were expected to provide their realm, it probably would have been security. That they failed in what can be reasonably said to be their central charge is a fact.

And if Strigos does ever rise again that would be a point towards the Strigoi ultimately not failing in their charge, but as of now Strigos is an orc controlled wasteland.

Also the Empire doesn't fall like Strigos did until End of Times, though two of its individual provinces do.
 
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Cheap Orange Knofe said:
Asur/Duchii basically represent the age of colonialism with all its backstabby politics and exploitative policies that screwed over people around the world. Places like my country. And for all the positive things they have done. They have a longer list of atrocities and out right thefts.

And you can mock and call out its flaws. But you cannot deny it's role in connecting the world into one big networked system. For all those that were killed or valuables that were taxed and outright stolen. The world we have now is because this happened and the spread of western civilization.

Just like the Asur/Druchii. Yes. They saved the world and basically owned a huge chunk of it. But it was also their fault why things went to shit
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Can we not get into tangential historical analysis here? thanks. I don't want to derail further by getting into this but I hope we can agree that it's at least counter-productive to start debates about whether colonialism and the "spread of western civilization" connected the world or w/e lol

edit: edited to be less rude, my bad.
 
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Imperious said:
The reasons are not unrelated though? If there was any service that the Strigoi were expected to provide their realm, it probably would have been security. That they failed in what can be reasonably said to be their central charge is a fact.

And if Strigos does ever rise again that would be a point towards the Strigoi ultimately not failing in their charge, but as of now Strigos is an orc controlled wasteland.

Also the Empire doesn't fall like Strigos did until End of Times, though two of its individual provinces do.
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But they didn't fail because of their nature or because their system was flawed or because they made some outrageous mistakes, they failed because Neferata decided to fuck them over. Can we say their rule was worthless simply because it didn't manage to handle enemies they didn't think they would have to handle? If tomorrow a figurative Archaon burns the Empire to the ground - or, to be topical, let's say the Beastide wildly succeeds and destroys Imperial civilization - would it be accurate to say that the Empire didn't work? An idea that a failure is a failure and that is all that matters is perhaps not unreasonable, but I feel there's a meaningful difference between the realm that fails on its own or because of its own actions, and the realm that is destroyed by outside factors. You could always say that the latter simply didn't do their thing well enough, not that their whole thing was bad.

The Empire mostly didn't exist for a thousand and some years of the Age of the Three Emperors, and came very close to complete destruction if not for Magnus less than half a century ago.
 
Hey, people!
PEOPLE!

The argument about whether Strigos and Mourkain worked or not has run its course for now.
It is barely tangentially related to the tread at this point and is verging upon a derail.
Tor asked us to keep it calm and non-disruptive.
Please take it outside the tread.

Kindly and thank you.
 
TheCynicalPogo said:
Well I mean, let's be real, someone made mistakes at some point if you're willingly worshipping undead horrors from your nightmares that tend to view you as livestock to protect and eventually feed upon
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This is opposed to worshipping creatures of the warp who view you as livestock to protect and eventually feed upon? I am speaking of the Gods and the benefits they gain from having worshippers. I can easily imagine the citizenry of a "Good" Vampirocracy arguing that their form of government is superior to one based on divine subservience. The key idea would be that Vampires have a closer connection to normal humanity and primarily exist within the material realm. This would make them more willing and capable of serving their subjects than inhuman entities that live in the Warp. Their opponents could bring up the abuses of the Von Carstein and Lahmians but the counter-argument is that the"Evil" Vampirocracies are analogous to the Chaos Gods in that they are a corruption of an otherwise moral system. Using them to characterize Strigos as inherently flawed would be portrayed as treating the evil of the chaos worshipping Norscan tribes are proof that the Empire must be evil due to their similar obsession with divine worship.

We can view Strigos as a failure and the Empire as a success only because of when our viewpoint (in the Warhammer setting in canon and the overwhelming majority of fanon) takes place. The Empire is now at its peak and the Strigoi are at their farthest point of decline. This doesn't mean that the Empire possesses some greater virtue or that Strigos had a greater vice. It is just a question of when you are choosing to evaluate them and the challenges they both faced. We can't assume that a vanished civilization was fundamentally inferior to the current civilization simply because they met their end.

Mallus is a terrible death world and Strigos had more than their fare share of enemies. They could very well have been an effective and moral civilization that simply collapsed due to the enormity of the challenges they faced. There isn't enough information to give them a true evaluation.
 
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With the threat of hydras coming up I'm wondering: I don't think we've ever dealt with fire damage that the Light of Summer couldn't heal, and the fire negates regeneration thing in lore is mainly tied to trolls. So flaming attacks negating regeneration seems mainly a TT thing, and I'm guessing our fiery munitions won't be effective in stopping the hydras from regrowing their heads. Actually it's a little nebulous whether it's just their heads or if damage to the torso would be not so quick to regenerate? I mean, trolls have regeneration and they can regrow heads but something about hydras in lore requires the heads specifically be decapitated/destroyed in very short succession.

I suppose what I'm getting at is I'm wondering how the magical physics defying physiology of the Hydra is best defied when Ostland has only experience with trolls as far as regenerating monsters. And they don't seem to follow the same rules.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
With the threat of hydras coming up I'm wondering: I don't think we've ever dealt with fire damage that the Light of Summer couldn't heal, and the fire negates regeneration thing in lore is mainly tied to trolls. So flaming attacks negating regeneration seems mainly a TT thing, and I'm guessing our fiery munitions won't be effective in stopping the hydras from regrowing their heads. Actually it's a little nebulous whether it's just their heads or if damage to the torso would be not so quick to regenerate? I mean, trolls have regeneration and they can regrow heads but something about hydras in lore requires the heads specifically be decapitated/destroyed in very short succession.

I suppose what I'm getting at is I'm wondering how the magical physics defying physiology of the Hydra is best defined when Ostland has only experience with trolls as far as regenerating monsters.
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Ostland specifically may not have experience but the empire itself does. Hydras are native to swamps across the entire planet, and the Empire has no shortage of swamps. If nothing elses there'll be at least some small entry in a book somewhere about them and their weaknesses. More than likely the Amber College has great knowledge of them or at least a pretty decent of their general strengths and weaknesses.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
With the threat of hydras coming up I'm wondering: I don't think we've ever dealt with fire damage that the Light of Summer couldn't heal, and the fire negates regeneration thing in lore is mainly tied to trolls. So flaming attacks negating regeneration seems mainly a TT thing, and I'm guessing our fiery munitions won't be effective in stopping the hydras from regrowing their heads. Actually it's a little nebulous whether it's just their heads or if damage to the torso would be not so quick to regenerate? I mean, trolls have regeneration and they can regrow heads but something about hydras in lore requires the heads specifically be decapitated/destroyed in very short succession.

I suppose what I'm getting at is I'm wondering how the magical physics defying physiology of the Hydra is best defied when Ostland has only experience with trolls as far as regenerating monsters. And they don't seem to follow the same rules.
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Worst comes to worst I'm sure Sadrina or the Eonir could direct us in the best way to take any of those beasts out, though hopefully we won't be seeing much beyond harpies if we're very very lucky
 
Hey you know with all the Sigmar Damned beasties we are going to kill ( hydra, charibys, dragon and etc...) we are going to have so many exotic material ! Who know what the Dawi or our Dear Forge-Daugther will be able to do !
And i don't say this because i really want an dragon bones/scales armor for Freddy...
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
I suppose what I'm getting at is I'm wondering how the magical physics defying physiology of the Hydra is best defied when Ostland has only experience with trolls as far as regenerating monsters. And they don't seem to follow the same rules.
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Fire can still be effective in general causing damage, AOE attacks, and area denial. Best thing we have alongside our other anti-monster weapons at this time at least.
 
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