To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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And why should Nash not be made to suffer like the rest of the Explorer Corps captains?
[X][FYM] Select Captains
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Demora Sulu
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
[X][FYM] Select Captains
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Demora Sulu
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
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- USA
@OneirosTheWriter, shouldn't that be the USS Sarek, rather than the Selaya?
Sure, but I wouldn't mind such a gap.
Er, really? Searching through the thread, I can't find evidence of that.
Okay, voting time.
USS Enterprise vote is the tough one. There are very good reasons for either keeping or promoting Nash. What tips me in the end is, well, a not quite logical reason: I think it would be kinda nice to spend the pp we gained from firing one Nash to keep another
Although I do think Straak would do well on another FYM, it sounds like he would also be satisfied just commanding a science-focused ship in general - that upcoming Oberth. Speaking of which, perhaps Talan th'Zahliss would also be interested in an Oberth captaincy. If Straak and th'Zahliss are still captains by 2318 or so, they could captain our next gen science ship.
Anyway, the next choice for the USS Sarek is either Samhaya Mrr'shan or Demora Sulu. Age, or rather imminent promotion to commodore, isn't an issue with either of them. Mrr'shan would actually be a better choice for the Enterprise, considering her experience on that ship, but she also has captaining experience while Sulu doesn't. On the other hand, we've already established a precedence with Saavik that you don't need captaining experience to have your first captaincy on an EC ship. In less important reasoning, Mrr'shan being the first Caitian EC captain is also nice (and when will we see the first Amarkian on the EC panel of captains?), while Sulu is a canon character. I'll go with Mrr'shan, because if Nash stays captain of the Enterprise, it would be great to have them both captaining FYMs together.
USS Miracht is an obvious choice for me: Langa Mbeki's diplomacy would follow Thuir's common sense very nicely, and Mbeki has been waiting for 5 years.
[X][FYM] Select Captains
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Nash ka'Sharren
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@lbmaian, it was in one of the omakes that led to the creation of our weapons research team.
Taken together, that is pretty much ALL the information we have on Starfleet captaincies. If anything, a single person having command of a prize explorer-class vessel for less than ten years is the anomaly here.
The only obvious exceptions I can think of was Kirk- whose service record was so great he was promoted straight from captain to rear admiral at the end of his first five-year mission. Of the movie-era commanders of the Enterprise, you have Decker (who died in service), possibly Spock (when the ship was being used as a training vessel), and that's it. We don't know how long Garrett was in command, not in primary canon.
Do you really think that we are somehow the ones inventing this precedent of Starfleet officers refusing promotion to remain in positions for more than five years at a time? Or, heck, just spending more than five years in the captain's chair?
Moreover, there is no evidence for the mean becoming ten years, except insofar as that is already normal, which for all we know it might be.
There is as yet no evidence for most Explorer Corps captains requesting multiple missions, or for us choosing to grant them. Nash is an obvious exception to the norm because she is not normal. Straak is an exception to the norm in that he is prepared to accept demotion to an Oberth rather than give up his geological survey duties.
Aside from them, of the present and past Explorer Corps captains, we have McAdams, Ajam, T'Lorel, Eaton, Thuir, and Saavik. None of those six have given indications that they intend to cling to the captain's chair past their five-year missions, and indeed three of the them have already left the chair gracefully. The other three haven't even had a chance yet, in one case because she's on medical leave, in two because they are still currently serving their first five-year missions.
So only two out of eight serving Explorer Corps captains in the past eleven years have sought to retain their commands for over five years. We have no reason to think that a larger fraction of the next wave of captains (such as Mrr'shan and Mbeki) will do so, either.
You are, bluntly, making a whole lot of soup out of very little stock here.
As someone who has repeatedly been told off for raising narrative concerns that I thought were important, but others considered unimportant or fictitious "scaremongering," I actually sympathize with your plight. You feel like this is important, I get that.
But people told me I was wrong before. You, personally, told me I was, in no uncertain terms. I suggest you consider the possibility that you might be worrying over nothing now.
Kirk may very well have been captain of the Enterprise for a combined total of ten to fifteen years over a thirty-year span. Possibly more; it's ambiguous. Enterprise was in service from 2245 to 2265 with only two captains prior to Kirk- April, and Pike. At least one of them, possibly both, must have been in service for over a decade, too. Had Nash not been appointed, we have reason to believe Harriman would have canonically remained in command of the Enterprise-B for fifteen years or more. We don't know how long Sulu was in command of Excelsior in canon; it could have been anywhere from five to ten years. We don't have much else in primary canon on captaincies past that time until the TNG era- where we have Picard, who was in command of the Enterprise-D and -E for a total of at least fifteen years.
Taken together, that is pretty much ALL the information we have on Starfleet captaincies. If anything, a single person having command of a prize explorer-class vessel for less than ten years is the anomaly here.
The only obvious exceptions I can think of was Kirk- whose service record was so great he was promoted straight from captain to rear admiral at the end of his first five-year mission. Of the movie-era commanders of the Enterprise, you have Decker (who died in service), possibly Spock (when the ship was being used as a training vessel), and that's it. We don't know how long Garrett was in command, not in primary canon.
Do you really think that we are somehow the ones inventing this precedent of Starfleet officers refusing promotion to remain in positions for more than five years at a time? Or, heck, just spending more than five years in the captain's chair?
The precedent you're talking about, insofar as it will ever exist, already exists and is not of our making.
Moreover, there is no evidence for the mean becoming ten years, except insofar as that is already normal, which for all we know it might be.
There is as yet no evidence for most Explorer Corps captains requesting multiple missions, or for us choosing to grant them. Nash is an obvious exception to the norm because she is not normal. Straak is an exception to the norm in that he is prepared to accept demotion to an Oberth rather than give up his geological survey duties.
Aside from them, of the present and past Explorer Corps captains, we have McAdams, Ajam, T'Lorel, Eaton, Thuir, and Saavik. None of those six have given indications that they intend to cling to the captain's chair past their five-year missions, and indeed three of the them have already left the chair gracefully. The other three haven't even had a chance yet, in one case because she's on medical leave, in two because they are still currently serving their first five-year missions.
So only two out of eight serving Explorer Corps captains in the past eleven years have sought to retain their commands for over five years. We have no reason to think that a larger fraction of the next wave of captains (such as Mrr'shan and Mbeki) will do so, either.
You are, bluntly, making a whole lot of soup out of very little stock here.
As someone who has repeatedly been told off for raising narrative concerns that I thought were important, but others considered unimportant or fictitious "scaremongering," I actually sympathize with your plight. You feel like this is important, I get that.
But people told me I was wrong before. You, personally, told me I was, in no uncertain terms. I suggest you consider the possibility that you might be worrying over nothing now.
[X][FYM] Select Captains
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
By the way, @Leila Hann, I am a little confused about what happened in your omake there at the end. If the story's over and all relevant revelations have been made... could you give me a plot synopsis?
Sulu, by contrast... we know she's served under Harriman, but I'm pretty sure she must have been aboard regular Starfleet vessels, not Explorer Corps, for most of the time between the start of her career around 2294 and the present day. And Harriman is at best on par with Straak, not of the same caliber as Kirk or Spock. So Sulu doesn't have the same level of experience, or the same background with highly skilled captains, that Saavik did.
I'd be a good deal less nervous giving Sulu an explorer captaincy straight off if, say, she'd graduated from Harriman's helmswoman to being a lieutenant commander under, oh, T'Lorel, followed by a stint as Nash's XO or something.
Saavik has a great deal of experience as understudy for other extremely skilled captains, including Kirk, Spock, and Straak (who is at least worthy to be mentioned in the same sentence as those first two). She compensated for lack of command experience with extreme promise, and our gamble on her paid off.
Sulu, by contrast... we know she's served under Harriman, but I'm pretty sure she must have been aboard regular Starfleet vessels, not Explorer Corps, for most of the time between the start of her career around 2294 and the present day. And Harriman is at best on par with Straak, not of the same caliber as Kirk or Spock. So Sulu doesn't have the same level of experience, or the same background with highly skilled captains, that Saavik did.
I'd be a good deal less nervous giving Sulu an explorer captaincy straight off if, say, she'd graduated from Harriman's helmswoman to being a lieutenant commander under, oh, T'Lorel, followed by a stint as Nash's XO or something.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
Nashs bonus only really matters with green crew. Other captains might not be as well rounded but they are betterbin their specialty and frankly they wont cost 45pp. Id rather not lose out on 25 pp this snake pit as I want the councillors.
Could some one run a vote tally?
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
Nashs bonus only really matters with green crew. Other captains might not be as well rounded but they are betterbin their specialty and frankly they wont cost 45pp. Id rather not lose out on 25 pp this snake pit as I want the councillors.
Could some one run a vote tally?
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- somewhere
No, that's all just alpha and beta canon (much of it history from a very different era at that), which we already know differs from quest canon in this respect, as you already brought up with Harriman yourself. In quest canon we know Uhura only took the Courageous for a single tour (2294-2299), Sulu almost certainly only took the Excelsior for a single tour because he already was promoted to Rear Admiral in 2302 and a promotion from Commodore takes a minimum of 5 years TIR, usually more, Harriman didn't have time for two full tours and very likely took only one (remote possibility of being recalled after starting a second, but seems to already have been Commodore for a while at game start), whoever took the Courageous before Uhura (Enterprise-B completed in 2293, so Courageous must have been completed in 2289, just enough time for one full tour before Uhura) only took a single tour and whoever took the Sarek on her first tour also only took one (actually probably recalled a year early even, like whoever took the Courageous after Uhura apparently was recalled 3 years early). That means 3 definite single tours, 2 likely aborted 5YM (let's call that one single tour) and just one possible but unlikely extension, lets be generous and call Harriman half half to make it 4.5/5. Add ka'Sharren, Eaton and T'lorel and it's single tours in 6.5/8 cases, pretty clearly the norm.
Obviously we wouldn't be inventing the idea, but we'd be legitimizing and normalizing something that very clearly was the exception before.
You don't get to claim exceptions for 2 out of 3 cases without exceptional evidence. The case of Straak in particular shows that he is requesting a second tour despite having given many indications of only enjoying a a small fraction of the missions involved. As for evidence of granting it, this was presupposing we would grant it in 100% of cases this year, and furthermore look at the ridiculous number of votes for Straak, for no apparent reason other than people seeming to be ok with extensions in general if they don't cost pp and they mildly like the character (we haven't had a disliked EC captain so far). He certainly doesn't have an exceptionally good bonus.
Eaton and T'Lorel left when there was still a strong norm of single tours so they aren't evidence of anything here, no indication having been given that leaving was their choice rather than following along with what was expected of them. Claiming the lack of indication of a desire to continue from people who didn't have the opportunity to indicate anything as evidence is highly disingenuous. That leaves just Thuir, who previously questioned his own suitability for the job, so the case for being an exception is much stronger for him than for ka'Sharren or Straak. Also part of my point was that the precedent and longer expected wait time would change the composition of candidates.
And on every single of those occasions I affirmed that narrative elements exist and matter, I just pointed out that those character blurbs that are clearly a direct translation of a mechanical bonus tend not to be among those. This isn't an example of that, and I pointed out the narrative consequences ka'Sharrens first extension already had.
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Ah, I was searching for anything before she made it into the EC panel of captains in 2306, when it was a late 2307 omake that "advertised" her. So she wasn't an omake reward per se, but is someone highlighted by an omake nonetheless:
I'm actually mostly fine with giving Sulu an EC captaincy straight off the bat. It's just that there happens to be a better choice this time around. Part of the reason I voted for Saavik back then was because she has a very promising bonus.
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Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
I just did a few posts ago.
Samhaya's lead has only grown.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I keep hearing this, and I'm pretty sure it's not true.
Nash's bonus shouldn't be viewed as a stat increase, it should be viewed in terms of increasing success probability. Explorer Corps event DC is variable, but it's usually pretty high. High enough that a +1 bonus is likely to matter quite a bit. When the event DC is, say, fifteen, then changing the die roll from 2d6+6 to 2d6+7 little more important- maybe NOT more important- than changing it from 2d6+8 to 2d6+9.
If the DC is seventeen, then those 2d6+8 or 9 ships are your only chance of success, and it is very much desirable to have the highest possible bonus.
If the DC is twelve or so, then admittedly it makes less of a difference... but Explorer Corps ships often have the higher event DCs from what I remember.
Furthermore, most of our other captain bonuses are flat increases to a stat (which are at best no better than Nash), or rerolls. And Rerolls only matter for events we have a serious risk of failing (where Nash would be helping quite a bit), plus rerolls for any given captain only apply to specific types of events, and are therefore less effective across the board than Nash because Nash helps every time, while rerolls are only even an option 20% of the time or whatever.
Mechanically, Nash's bonus is really really good, regardless of what ship you put her on. That is the exact reason why she's the only Explorer Corps candidate we've ever had who comes with a built-in mechanical penalty to offset her mechanical bonus.
So basically, you're arguing that we have created the 'single tour norm,' or that it popped into existence since 2290... But at the same time, permitting ka'Sharren and Straak to hold their command chairs for another term, that norm will evaporate.
Your new attempt to argue that five year tours are the norm is based largely on your inferences about the 2290s. We can't assume ANYTHING about how Starfleet operated in the 2290s represents a long term institutional norm, because that represented the chaotic period of the end of the Klingon conflicts, the retirement of the Constitution-As, and the Rogers admiralty.
Moreover, if five year tours really are the norm, and you're not simply mistaken... It is reasonable to expect that they will remain so, and that one or two isolated exceptions to the rule will do no more harm than the numerous exceptions made in the past.
If we go back farther (far enough into the past that we can tell what normal even means, then about the only canon evidence comes from Enterprise. The two Constitution-class Enterprises had, as far as we can tell, five captains in fifty years: April, Pike, Kirk (repeatedly), and Decker and Spock (also relatively briefly).
Fifty divided by five is ten. Granted that one of the five captains is Kirk, but April and Pike averaged ten years each too, before Kirk even showed up and threw a monkey wrench in the works.
In which case it is the 'five year norm' that you are promoting which is the aberration, and one which is clearly not necessary to the good and proper functioning of Starfleet.
But if my assessment is wrong, and 'five year norm' applies for all ships except the 23rd century Enterprise which was mysteriously immune even before Kirk took over... all that means is that the norm is going to be more resilient than you give it credit for. In which case this is no longer a high-stakes decision.
You are cherrypicking. Since 2300, Starfleet has had to consider whether to continue or to drop an Explorer Corps captain not in three cases, but in seven:
Enterprise, Courageous, and Sarek in 2305, Enterprise, Courageous, and Sarek in 2310, plus Miracht in 2310.
Continuation has been granted* only three times out of those seven. If you only count captains who are actually likely to get a renewal, it's two out of seven.
__________________
*(This 3/7, and your alarmist 2/3, are both assuming you count Straak 2310, who's winning this time around, AND Nash 2310, who isn't)
You mean the 'strong norm' that would magically disappear as soon as Personnel allows two of five explorers to be captained by the same person who had them last tour, rather than allowing it for one of three?
Make up your mind. Either the 'five year norm' is a resilient Starfleet tradition, or it isn't. If it is, one or two exceptions won't cause it to suddenly disintegrate into nothingness. If it isn't, then Starfleet can do without it and there's no reason to be alarmed.
Presumably, T'Lorel and Eaton had the same amount of "opportunity to indicate" desire to avoid promotion that ka'Sharren did. They didn't. She did. Thuir didn't either. So far, of eight serving Explorer Corps captains, only two have expressed desire to return to the chair. A third might, but Ajam may well be forced into a desk job by her injuries, making the matter irrelevant.
There is no evidence that the Explorer Corps captain's list is anything other than "these are the 5-10 most promising or favored officers, with the rank of captain, presently serving in Starfleet." The candidates on the captain's list do not select themselves. There is no reason to assume that the composition of the candidates will change. If captains are not recruited from the list, then experience shows that within a reasonably short amount of time, they typically receive promotions to other positions and 'graduate' off the list.
You have been arbitrarily inflating the small consequences of letting two out of eight (or three out of sixteen) five-year mission captaincies be "re-elections" into huge, disproportionately large consequences.
Your entire chain of argument here is an almost textbook example of a slippery slope fallacy in action.
...
Now, I'm going to sleep, so naturally you're going to get the last word on this if you're still awake.
-[X] USS Enterprise: Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
- Location
- Germany
Well, looks like Nash is loosing.
I'm hoping we can give her the Stargazer to get that newby crew up to veterans on it's first 5YM.
I'm hoping we can give her the Stargazer to get that newby crew up to veterans on it's first 5YM.
Actually, why are people voting so overwhelmingly to give Straak a second tour?
His bonus isn't that great and he doesn't seem nearly so desperate to stay. Is it just that his Captain's Log entries make you laugh more than what @OneirosTheWriter writes for other captains?
His bonus isn't that great and he doesn't seem nearly so desperate to stay. Is it just that his Captain's Log entries make you laugh more than what @OneirosTheWriter writes for other captains?
Jenny
anonymous user
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- maryland
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- She/Her
Is that such a bad thing?
I mean, really, is it that bad if we're not mechanically perfect? If we allow captains we enjoy reading about to stay on longer?
- Location
- Australia
Vote will continue overnight. Lost a number of hours today to a migraine. I'm starting to figure out the best way to let you guys have some control over the member world fleets without, you know, making you guys have to take responsibility for it.
I suppose not. Do you finds his logs more entertaining than those of, say, Thuir or Saavik? I guess I'm trying to poke at if keeping him is just present-bias or if he is genuinely is a more entertaining captain than most others.
For me, I like reading his logs but I'm sure I'd enjoy reading the logs of some different captain with their own quirks just as much.
...I think it's more the idea that Nash has ALREADY had an extension of her five year mission. Fifteen years is pretty damn ridiculous in my mind if not in that of other people. Where were you fifteen years ago?
And yeah, I like Straak. He's given fantastic results, and while the resource-searching bonuses may not seem as glorious if you look at his payoff as a captain on his 'report card' it's VERY impressive.
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- Location
- Terror Australis
Ahem.
The geological knowledge is a personality quirk, not his bonus.