A 1mt berth costs 10 PP in the Andorian or Tellarite systems, and a budget increase of 60 BR and 30 SR per year costs 30 PP at this point. That is less PP than the refit, and provides us with the space and resources that we can churn out a Centaur every 2 years, while having some BR left over, even. On top of that we're saving the BR and SR that the refits would cost, which is nothing to sneeze at, either.
And unlike the Constellation refit, the berths and budget increase would be useful for the entirety of the game, since they would be just as useful for building Renaissance, or Sabers, or Steamrunners, or any other sort of vessel we want to produce. Whereas the PP spent on the Constellation refit do just that.
This is an excellent point. But as we've seen, pp costs of options shift over time.
Like others, I think the ConstieA refit is worth doing if the price goes down to 20 pp. Also, if we get the chance to reduce the crew cost of the Constie during a refit, I think the class could be valuable for some time yet.
If the ConstieA refit stays the same in cost, or goes up, then probably we are better to slowly phase her out.
I would rather keep the Miranda over the Constellation honestly. The Miranda-B refit actually makes it as combat-capable as a Centaur-B, and mothballing them won't reimburse us with much crew.
Regarding the political cost of mothballing/scrapping, let's just ask the QM. @OneirosTheWriter, can we freely mothball or scrap existing ships, or does it require Council approval and thus maybe PP?
Future ships go up in resource cost, yeah. Especially in terms of SR; the Defiant costs about three times as much SR than BR, for example.
But resources are comparatively easy to come by; we're finding some spot for a mining colony pretty much every year
This is an excellent point. But as we've seen, pp costs of options shift over time.
Like others, I think the ConstieA refit is worth doing if the price goes down to 20 pp. Also, if we get the chance to reduce the crew cost of the Constie during a refit, I think the class could be valuable for some time yet.
If the ConstieA refit stays the same in cost, or goes up, then probably we are better to slowly phase her out.
I seriously doubt that's going to happen, unless it's a refit more along the lines of the Constitution; ie, turning the Constellation from a cruiser into an escort.
I would rather keep the Miranda over the Constellation honestly. The Miranda-B refit actually makes it as combat-capable as a Centaur-B, and mothballing them won't reimburse us with much crew.
I added that paragraph precisely because I was realizing the full implications of your idea. It does offer a very plausible explanation for not only "silent running" but also the principals of cloaks - and to my knowledge no-one has come up with that idea before.
Even the most massive black holes are extremely luminous. Even when the universe is entering its heat death, and each black hole will not meet any matter to eat for quadrillions of years at a time, the space around the massive black holes will be warmer than the rest of space, because the black hole will be eating the virtual particles that pop into existence on its event horizon.
This results in the black hole slowly losing mass and heat to the surrounding universe.
If you have a less pure vacuum, then the black hole will emit energy from the things falling into it.
And note, I'm only speaking of BIG black holes here - larger than our galaxy.
Small black holes (the mass of a mountain) that you could feasibly carry around in a star ship are HOT HOT HOT. You need to continuously force feed them mass to stop the quantum foam eroding them with a big flash as the whole mass of the black hole turns into pure energy in a few picoseconds.
I really can't thing of any to use a black hole as a heat sink, unless you had a black hole that was very, very "cold" (and also weighing in at least 3 solar masses) and used it as a heat sink - consequently "warming" the black hole up (but with a hole that massive, it would take a long, long time for even a Borg cube to warm one up - but again - this thing would have an event horizon maybe a dozen miles in diameter and weigh much, much more than the puny ship it is forming a heat sink for - that is maybe the most troublesome ice cube to try to carry that I can imagine).
No quite. Temperature IS intensity. You seem to be using the word "temperature" when you should be talking about total energy - with that change of terms all of what you said makes sense. This doesn't have anything to do with insulation though. Changing the temperature of the surface while keeping the total energy flux the same is simply a matter of changing the surface area of the surface. So hiding a secret base inside a giant metal balloon would work just as well as hiding a secret base inside the core of an ice moon (assuming the base has been on that moon for a long time).
The insulating properties of the ice moon are only useful for smoothing any spikes in energy output. (Of course, if you had a temporary base, then you could leave before the spike in emissions had traveled through the moon.)
The obvious (hard-SF) thing to do, if you don't need to maneuver much or at all, would be to encase your ship in an enormous balloon, something like this.
Yeah, putting the Enterprise inside the giant garbage bag would mean the total energy flux at any given distance would be the same, but because the bag acts as a re-radiator, the wavelength of the emissions would be shifted lower.
Good if you know your enemy are looking for a particular sort of emissions and you want to avoid it.
Suffice to say that the problem is that I am communicating these ideas in such a way that you do not become aware that I have the same kind of knowledge you do.
You do come across as having the same knowledge. I'm pretty sure you're forgetting important details though.
I am trying to explain in layman's terms and to show my reasoning so a) everyone reading the thread could follow what I was saying so that it was at least someone useful for those who don't find physics quite as interesting and b) so that if I am the one who is forgetting things or using flawed reasoning you can follow my chain of thought and tell me where you think I am slipping up.
I do hope the tone didn't come across as overbearing?
I am trying to explain in layman's terms and to show my reasoning so a) everyone reading the thread could follow what I was saying so that it was at least someone useful for those who don't find physics quite as interesting and b) so that if I am the one who is forgetting things or using flawed reasoning you can follow my chain of thought and tell me where you think I am slipping up.
Star Trek science is bullshit and makes no sense, so this entire discussion has seemed completely pointless to me, honestly. As soon as you all started talking about "where does the heat go" I completely tuned out because I know that Star Trek is incapable of addressing that issue, much less anything else.
I figure they get rid of it with heat compensators, which work very well.
I seriously doubt that's going to happen, unless it's a refit more along the lines of the Constitution; ie, turning the Constellation from a cruiser into an escort.
Actually, this is exactly what I'd like to do if the Constellation stays in service for a long time.
I have been imagining that as ship classes age, we can institute refits that drop the crew requirements and drop the ship down to the next lower size category - to the Excelsior will become a light cruiser when it is no longer a fit explorer, the Constie will become an escort and (OK, maybe going out on a limb here) the Miranda would become a science ship.
Well... That may be taking things too far. But I think we will definitely want a ConnieB type refit of the Excelsior to turn it into a light cruiser.
But certainly the Constie does have an excellent stat line to be an escort, and I think would work well as part of a swarm with Centaurs (Constie's providing the high Def and combat power, Centaurs providing the science and durability, meaning both ships can cover the weaknesses of the other).
In fact, if we ever research swarm doctrine, I think we should immediately re-classify the Constie to an escort if any number remain in service. Swarm doctrine seems to me to be the perfect doctrine for Consties and if I understand correctly, only escorts can use it.
TNG manual does state that the phasers and/or the shield generators are cooled with liquid (helium? I don't have it with me but it's a noble gas), so someone did consider the problem. But they've never really addressed how Trek ships actually radiate or dissipate that heat.
Hm, maybe they do it through the nacelles, and that's why so many Federation ships have them off-set from the hull...
Really though you can write anything. "They use driver plating on the graviton coils to convert heat pumped into the system to harmless neutrinos."
the real question is, how reliable would that syst
TNG manual does state that the phasers and/or the shield generators are cooled with liquid (helium? I don't have it with me but it's a noble gas), so someone did consider the problem. But they've never really addressed how Trek ships actually radiate or dissipate that heat.
Hm, maybe they do it through the nacelles, and that's why so many Federation ships have them off-set from the hull...
Really though you can write anything. "They use driver plating on the graviton coils to convert heat pumped into the system to harmless neutrinos."
Star Trek science is bullshit and makes no sense, so this entire discussion has seemed completely pointless to me, honestly. As soon as you all started talking about "where does the heat go" I completely tuned out because I know that Star Trek is incapable of addressing that issue, much less anything else.
I figure they get rid of it with heat compensators, which work very well.
Request Refit Program for Miranda class [+1 S,H,L for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns, 45pp (NB: new unit cost for the Miranda will be 60/45)
Request Refit Program for Constellation class [+1 C,S,D, for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns 40pp (NB: new unit cost for Constellation will be 70/45)
New Miranda stats: C3 S2 H2 L3 P1 D2
New Constellation stats: C4 S3 H2 L2 P2 D4
6 hull isn't as big an advantage over 5 hull as you might think.
In terms of the ship's combat power, your fighting power decays as a function of how many hits to hull you take like this, starting from full hull:
HULL 5
100%, 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, (boom)
(this corresponds to being at 5/5, 4/5, and so on down to 0/5)
I ran the same numbers for other Hull values, but I'm snipping that for now. The practical conclusion is this:
In general, going from an even hull up to an odd hull seems to be better, because it tends to confer extra time spent fighting at high health. Which is important, since your firepower scales with your remaining health bar.
So going from even hull up to odd will significantly increase its odds of surviving a nearly-equal battle where the enemy is on their last legs just as much as our ship is. Going from odd up to even matters less.
Request Refit Program for Miranda class [+1 S,H,L for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns, 45pp (NB: new unit cost for the Miranda will be 60/45)
Request Refit Program for Constellation class [+1 C,S,D, for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns 40pp (NB: new unit cost for Constellation will be 70/45)
New Miranda stats: C3 S2 H2 L3 P1 D2
New Constellation stats: C4 S3 H2 L2 P2 D4
That doesn't really answer his question. What does the refit add in terms of technology and/or machinery? How would the design change vs how it is currently?
The thing I dislike most about the talk of starting the refits is that with most berths stuffed with ConnieBees for the next few years, there's no point in getting the refit program started now. Won't those refit numbers improve if we let them sit in the snake pit until two years before the berths are open?
The yellow alert signals flash steadily around the bridge of the USS Enterprise as it comes out of warp in the 33 Fujit System, a barren empty nothingness, a star with no planets, asteroids, or anything else to note. Only one Cardassian ship, dead ahead.
"Report."
Beeps and clicks come from the sensor console and Diego Zaardmani looks up at his captain. "I'm only picking up the Karnack, it ... looks like the Trager never came this way."
"Damn, a false trail!" Nash's features twist into a snarl as she regards the Jaldun sitting in the viewscreen. "Hm, I notice the Karnack is sticking around?"
"Yes, sir, it's moving away to maintain relative velocity, weapons unpowered but shields up."
"Maintaining distance?" repeats Nash. "What could they be doing?"
Zaardmani's eyes go wide as saucers as something pops up on his display. "Captain! New ship! Cardassian signature, but half-again as large, it's right on top of us, weapons powered!"
The ship rocks around them as weapons strike the ship.
====
Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 22790.4
A distress call has been received from the nascent mining colony at Beta Corridan. Apparently a large asteroid is heading their way and they need assistance. Personally, I'm surprised both that this asteroid was missed and that they can't deal with it fairly easily themselves.
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Captain's Log, USS Sarek, Stardate 22790.7 - Captain Straak
A distress call has been received from the vicinity of the Pisces* black hole, and we are proceeding at maximum warp. A particularly powerful gamma ray burst has disabled a starship's warp coils and they falling towards the event horizon. As per Starfleet policy, we have altered course to aid them.
I must admit, if I must leave my mapping mission behind once more, I am relieved that it will be to travel to a place with equally interesting surroundings.
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Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 22791.2
It appears that we are leaving the Cardassian frontier behind for now. We have been tasked to pick up a very important Betazoid diplomat from Ferasa and then return him to Betazed for a summit. I'm told the Federation is keenly interested in making sure he arrives at the summit in time. He is noted for his pro-Federation views, and if he speaks at this summit it could push the Betazoids into joining the Federation.
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Captain's Log, USS Sappho, Stardate 22791.6
A peculiar subspace emission was being detected from Meridia VI, surprisingly near the Vulcan system, and we were ordered to investigate. With a little work we were able to piece together what has happened here. It is a fascinating artifact of the Preservers, one which has been activated by a chance tectonic shift.
I just about had to beat my science officer back with a stick to keep him from just beaming on down! There's a lot to study, too, could be some interesting developments. Also, there's this excellent white sand beach nearby.
[Gain +5 rp/year colony option]
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Captain's Log, USS Sarek, Stardate 22791.8
The vessel was a Seyek cruiser. Opening a dialog with their captain revealed a number of dangers related to the instability of the black hole's accretion disk. With this information, we were able to navigate our way through the hazards and successfully employ the tractor beam to remove the ship from danger until more lasting repairs could be managed.
I will say that the sensor logs of the system made for fascinating reading during the rescue.
[Gain +5rp, +25 Relations with Seyek]
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Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 22792.3
That's not an asteroid.
That's nearly a damned dwarf planet.
What pushed this thing off course anyway??
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Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 22793.1
The Ambassador has vanished!
We're not sure what did the deed. I would say that he was vaporised, but we can't even get trace particles of him anymore. There was an accident, we hit a tetryon eddy going through subspace at the same time as the Ambassador was viewing an experiment being run by the science team. There was a massive discharge of energy in the cargo bay and he vanished.
This death is a tragedy, and we are all the poorer for it.
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Personal Log, Captain Michel Thuir, Stardate 22793.2
Am I actually cut out for being an Explorer Corps captain? None of these disasters happened when I was on the Challorn...
I hope there won't be another Board of Inquiry after this.
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Captain's Log, USS Hawking, Stardate 22794.4
We have arrived at the Rigellian colony Shadan-Dor to aid them in investigating the disappearance of the crew of a science outpost orbiting the eleventh planet of the system, shortly after reports of a plague. There were worries that it might be the Biophage reaching outside the ever-growing vaccination zone, but it turned out to be something more mundane, if still very lethal.
[+5 rp]
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Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 22794.6
Some ... weird things have been happening around the ship since the Ambassador's death.
Reports of items being pushed over, crew members reporting hearing voice in their minds... I wonder if this is some manifestation of stress? If we hadn't lost the Ambassador, I'd have thought some leave time around Betazed was in order...
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Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 22795.1
I've been working with the Chief Engineer and the Science Officer, and we have a plan. The rest of the Border Zone Fleet has arrived to aid us. Using the Kumari and ourselves, we are setting up modified subspace field relay beacons in orbit around one side of this dwarf planet, with which we will keep one part of the planet under a very broad field. The Challorn and Northwind then reroute their tractor beam emissions through their deflectors to emit powerful graviton beams into the subspace field, which will bounce around in there. This will create a massive gravitational force acting upon just the planetoid.
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Captain's Log, USS Calypso, Stardate 22795.3
While on our way to deliver the Federation representative team to Betazed for the upcoming summit, we have received word of the tragic death of the Betazoid Ambassador aboard the Miracht.
We will still push on, but I can tell the diplomats aboard are very worried about how this will play out.
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Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 22795.6
My Chief Medical Officer has worked out the puzzle! The strange events are actually being caused by the Ambassador!
He wasn't vaporised, he was moved partially out of phase with our reality. We're going to need to figure out how to shift him back into phase.
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Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 22795.9
Success! There will be some disruptions from the relatively close passage, but we have shifted the planet back towards a stable orbit around Beta Corridan!
The engineering crews on the colony have expressed their thanks.
[+10pp, colony world does not get obliterated]
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Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 22797.2
The Chief Engineer has managed to retrofit one of the cargo bays to serve as host to a bi-polaron flux field, which has successfully resolved the space-time references of the Ambassador.
He just about crushed my ribs with the hug he gave me after returning. Apparently he thought he was doomed to be a poltergeist wandering the Miracht for the rest of his days!
[+10 rp, +25 Relations with Betazed]
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Captain's Log, USS Calypso, Stardate 22797.5
To our tremendous surprise, the Betazoid ambassador has arrived after all!
The amazing story of science and wonder he was able to tell has apparently made the jobs of the Federation diplomats a lot easier.
[+10pp, +25 Relations with Betazed]
[Betazed is now a Pending Ratification to accede as a full member of the Federation]
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Bridge Transcript, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
[Cdr Zaardmani] I'm only picking up the Karnack, it ... looks like the Trager never came this way.
[Capt ka'Sharren] We're back ... you all remember too?
[Cdr Mrr'Shan] Captain? Are you okay?
[Capt ka'Sharren] Yes! there was a temporal wave as the warp core was breaching...
[Cdr Mrr'Shan] Warp core!? Engineering, this is-
[Capt ka'Sharren] No! I'm-
[Cdr Zaardmani] Sensor contact, another Cardassian!
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Bridge Transcript, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
[Cdr Zaardmani] I'm only picking up the Karnack, it ...
[Capt ka'Sharren] -looks like the Trager never came this way, yes, I know. Tactical, power to weapons!
[Cdr Mrr'Shan] Captain, the Karnack's weapons are unpowered.
[Capt ka'Sharren] It's a ruse. Helm, ahead full impulse, attack pattern-
[Cdr Mrr'Shan] Medical and Security to the bridge. Captain, I'm rel-
[Cdr Zaardmani] New sensor contact!
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Bridge Transcript, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
[Cdr Zaardmani] I'm only picking up the Karnack, it ... looks like the Trager never came this way.
[Capt ka'Sharren] *muttered* Okay, have it your way.
[Cdr Mrr'Shan] Captain?
[Capt ka'Sharren] Mr Zaardmani, status of the Karnack?
[Cdr Zaardmani] Shields up, weapons unpowered, I believe they're just observing us for the moment.
[Capt ka'Sharren] Scan the conduits leading to their phaser banks, they may be pulling the same trick we did at Amarkia.
[Cdr Zaardmani] They ... huh, yes, Captain, that's exactly what they're doing.
[Capt ka'Sharren] This is an ambush! Full power to weapons! Helm, full impulse!
[Cdr Zaardmani] Big Cardassian ship on sensors!
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Bridge Transcript, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
[Cdr Zaardmani] I'm only picking up the Karnack, it ... looks like the Trager never came this way.
[Capt ka'Sharren] *muttered* I'd say that we're going to try this until it kills us, but... ahem.
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Bridge Transcript, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
[Capt ka'Sharren] This is an ambush! Helm, hard over towards the star, full impulse! Zaardmani, prepare to fire an EM Pulse towards these points on the star! We're going to trigger a solar flare and fly through the loop of the stellar ejecta to buy time to deal with the Karnack and keep the trailing ship off us.
[Cdr Zaardmani] Captain, there is no trai-... whoa! New contact, big Cardassian!
[Capt ka'Sharren] Twenty-seventh times the charm, let's go, Enterprise!
[Cdr Mrr'Shan] Twenty... seventh? What?
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Bridge Transcript, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
[Gul Parad] I will not surrender this ship. Destroy us if you will, but I will never bend the knee.
[Capt ka'Sharren] I have no intention of asking for your surrender. Your ship will survive until rescue. This is just a message.
[Gul Parad] Then speak.
[Capt ka'Sharren] You attempted treachery today. But from now until the end of time, you, and Cardassia, will remember the name, Enterprise.
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Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate Unknown
That was the most exhausting ten minutes of my life. But victory.
Oh boy, this is going to be one hell of a report to write up.
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Side 1: Federation Fleet, Ships 1, Combat 9, Hull 7
Side 2: Cardassian Fleet, Ships 2, Combat 11, Hull 7
Star Trek science is bullshit and makes no sense, so this entire discussion has seemed completely pointless to me, honestly. As soon as you all started talking about "where does the heat go" I completely tuned out because I know that Star Trek is incapable of addressing that issue, much less anything else.
Ah! But by applying science to star trek ships we could convince the QM to allow us to research improved "silent running" tech. I know I'd sure like something like that which could be applied to our Obreths and our successor science ship.
The vessel was a Seyek cruiser. Opening a dialog with their captain revealed a number of dangers related to the instability of the black hole's accretion disk. With this information, we were able to navigate our way through the hazards and successfully employ the tractor beam to remove the ship from danger until more lasting repairs could be managed.
I will say that the sensor logs of the system made for fascinating reading during the rescue.
With the Seyek now being at 65/100, we should do a diplomatic push on them. With a good roll and another event like this, we could get them as an affiliate this year.
How wonderful, now if Enterprize would be able to capture and repair Karnack's propulsion systems and tow Lorgot back into federation space for study and reverse engineering of the technologies that they have available, (begins to grin from ear to ear) I think our current plans for ship design would require a complete overhaul due to the bountiful amount of new technologies we have acquired! Not to mention the POWs of the surviving crew of the two vessels to interrogate. This is a turning point in our fight against the Cardassians, and we didn't even require going into a state of emergency to achieve it!
