[X] Plan Gabriel Warzone

Given it's unlikely the Cardassians will be showing up without affiliate help, we should coordinate with the Apinae raiding parties, and whichever other affiliates we have in the area (was it the Caitains?).
 
[X] Plan Gabriel Warzone


So the Cardassians have basically said they are okay with low level warfare in the Gabriel Expanse.
How far do we want to take that?

It seems like the thread is pretty confident that we can put enough ships into the area to contest it. But my suspicion is that the Cardassians will not take losing in this area well.

So what is our long term plan? Do we play it conservatively, and try not to push them too far. Hoping to play out the peace as long as possible?
The problem with I think is that without pressure on them, their confidence will grow to the point that they start deliberately trying to provoke us into either withdrawing or committing to a larger war on their terms

Or do we go in this trying to win? Acknowledge that war with them is inevitable and seek to gain as much territory and allies as possible before we force a resolution at a point of our choosing.
I suspect that if we begin to make big gains in Gabriel the Cardassians will very quickly forget about the agreements they have just made.


Perhaps we need to set certain goals to achieve, that upon reaching will give us a reasonable certainty of victory in full war. After which we can afford to be more aggressive in our actions
 
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We should easily hit Impact 400 this year, I believe. Once the Syndicate is dealt with, we could probably assign the former ASTF force, as well as the freed forces from Amarkia/Farasa sector for some extra 15 combat or so.

And some more if we can convince council to lower those D reqs. :|
 
I'll say this about the T'Mir. It's not just about filling a Defense requirement. I genuinely view Rigel sector as one of our major frontiers, a unknown swathe of space out of which could potentially sweep any damn thing. Planet eater! Giant space amoeba! New species! Who the hell knows.

Without something concrete we can't justify putting an Excelsior there, but it worries me. I will feel a lot better with the T'Mir and its Science 7 on the case there. That, ultimately, is why I'm not willing to budge on this. If you really disagree, feel free to copy-and-paste my plan, modify it as you wish, and post a new plan.

And some more if we can convince council to lower those D reqs. :|

That's called "Forward Defense Defensive Doctrine", and we are working on that technology!
 
Even when we get Forward Defense, how much will it really help us right now? Most of our Home Sectors are already on two ships and a starbase, so unless we want to leave a single ship patrolling a sector, we can't pull too many ships. A couple from Sol, one from Vulcan, and that's about it. It'll be useful in the long run because it means our garrison requirements won't grow too much, but we're basically enacting forward defense policies right now anyways.
 
Ok, we're gonna need Miranda spam, we're gonna need all the budget we can get, we're going to need Indoria and Gabriel expanse starbases, and we're going to need under-the-table diplomacy with the Dawair.

The big Dawair worry about joining the federation was the whole "End of Ambition" thing. The Gabriel expanse sitch might actually help with that given that it's basically a joint Starfleet/Apiata/Amarki interstellar land rush.

Honestly, we might be able to split them away just with a more detailed explaination of what all is involved with membership. It's fundamentally trading being an independant T2.5 power for being a substantial player in a T1 power. Play the political game well and they can wind up with one of your people in the top five powerful slots in the galaxy, AND will wind up with a bunch of your people as bigger deals than their head of state is now. As an independent with their tech level any major starfleet flag officer can be argued to be more powerful than your head of state and as a Cardassian minor affiliate their freedom of action is so limited that EC captains have more real power than any Dawair.

Also given their relative position they're ideally placed to take point on Federation rimward expansion. Boldly going into the unknown with the Federation machine behind them offers a lot of room for ambition, yes?

What? We said we wouldn't negotiate with Cardassian affiliates. Not that we wouldn't let Cardassian affiliates have access to our media outlets and talk with Poli Sci types not on our payroll.

Lovely thing about the federation political setup is that there's a LOT of ways for us de facto conduct diplo actions without TECHNICALLY taking any form of government action.

I'm prioritizing the Dawair because they're the easiest to split and even getting them to neutral frees up the Caitian fleet to act as a reserve force in wartime.
 
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I wonder if we could offer the Dawair a slice of the GBZ under our protection, or guaranteed expansion rights, in exchange for demilitarization or something.
 
Ok, we're gonna need Miranda spam, we're gonna need all the budget we can get, we're going to need Indoria and Gabriel expanse starbases, and we're going to need under-the-table diplomacy with the Dawair.

See, I think we need to push the Yrillians. Right now they aren't actually Cardassian affiliates, but they're apparently leaning heavily that way. If we can stop them from going there, the Cardassians lose "a chunk" of their total combat and we get a buffer against the Sydraxians. And we have to hit them this snakepit, if at all possible. No waiting until next year or it may be too late.

I wonder if we could offer the Dawair a slice of the GBZ under our protection, or guaranteed expansion rights, in exchange for demilitarization or something.

It's kind of far from them. Personally, I like the idea floated earlier that they ought to grab Lecarre territory!
 
Even when we get Forward Defense, how much will it really help us right now? Most of our Home Sectors are already on two ships and a starbase, so unless we want to leave a single ship patrolling a sector, we can't pull too many ships. A couple from Sol, one from Vulcan, and that's about it. It'll be useful in the long run because it means our garrison requirements won't grow too much, but we're basically enacting forward defense policies right now anyways.
Take a look at the techs. Mutual Support means that border sector ships can respond to events in core sectors. At a penalty, yes, but one that can be countered with other techs, like the Starbase Design Control line. Starbase Design Control II + Mutual Support + Starbases everywhere makes each ship in a border zone provide response abilities equal to what we'd get now from having clones of that ship in the border zone, plus each home sector it borders.

Mutual support also lets a shitload more ships throw response dice.
 
It's kind of far from them. Personally, I like the idea floated earlier that they ought to grab Lecarre territory!
What's more ambitious, more noble, than proving you can establish and hold facilities far from your borders! Like the Tellarites (by proxy)!

Speaking of:
Tellarite councilor: *dons helmet*

Vulcan: "You have my logic!"
Andorian: "You have my passion!"
Amarki: "You have my sword!"
Tellarite: "AND MY INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY."
 
Say what? What is this supposed to mean? How are they supposed to oppose their introduction into the Federation? The Cardassians have literally no power here. I don't see the point of this.
Well, one way the Cardassians could oppose their induction into the Federation would be "by force."

*teeth grinding*
You had one job, dammit.

Ah well. We've already reached the point where we were starting to do this covertly anyway, what with their ships hounding us, but now the price of failure got exorbitantly high.

A cloaked diplomatic vessel sounds really appealing right now.

So you lost us the diplomatic approach but couldn't even get some concession for this.
Yeah, basically, we just signed an agreement with a creepy abusive parent who likes to scream random threats at us, promising not to check up on the welfare of their kids.

It is an absolutely massive concession to the Cardassians unless we can find a way around it, especially if they interpret "Cardassian affiliate" broadly.

[Notably, this is DEFINITELY the treaty provision we should start violating first, and most aggressively, if the Cardassians fail in some way like "let the Sydraxians off the leash. They're not really going to mind if we fight their ships on the borders, we can't really do much about Bajor right now with current political realities... but they are obviously terrified of what happens if we start talking to "their" affiliates.

The Kadeshu fleet is huge. I doubt the Cardassians will want to risk their fleet. They'll shadow it, see what it does and will then let it go.
Why can't the Kadeshi just go around through the Rigel sector? Almost anything would be better than having to fly their ships straight through torpedo alley.

And then at least a year to produce the first wave of them, so 4 years minimum before we can have a meaningful amount.

Will this treaty hold out for four years?
I don't think even the Cardassians would have signed a treaty like this if they didn't expect it to last for four years.

On the combat note - It's worth remember that the Cardassians basically don't do multirole ships, we run a lot of multiroles. Single-role escorts are best bang for buck, followed by single role cruisers. This is most of their combat force. If we start crash building Miranda-As we can very rapidly break ahead, because they're failing to match us while despite getting more bang for their buck.
The Jalduns are every bit as multirole a ship design as the Renaissance or Constitution-B, and their statline is very much consistent with those ships. Science/Presence 3, other stats 4.

I wonder if we could offer the Dawair a slice of the GBZ under our protection, or guaranteed expansion rights, in exchange for demilitarization or something.
On the contrary. We don't want them to demilitarize. We want them to kick ass. If the Dawiar want to approach the Federation we should encourage them to be what they are, not discourage them; that is the best antidote to any fears on their part that we want to put an end to their interstellar ambitions.
 
On the contrary. We don't want them to demilitarize. We want them to kick ass. If the Dawiar want to approach the Federation we should encourage them to be what they are, not discourage them; that is the best antidote to any fears on their part that we want to put an end to their interstellar ambitions.
Slight correction: We want them to do what they want to do.

If they want to join the Amarki and the Apatia in the military-heavy affiliates/members bloc? That's great. We'd welcome Dawair battleships to join Amarki battleships and Apatia assault carriers on the lines.

If they want to go full industrialist? Also great. A Dawair/Rigelian/Tellarite/Human buildoff would probably give the Cardassians nightmares.
 
On the positive side, our Cardassion choice for this year's Intelligence report is looking like a pretty smart investment!

[X][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vs Cardassian fleets for the next 12 months)

I guarantee we are going to fight some Cardassians in the next 9 months.
 
It's not like the RIsans are going to do much expansion, so the Dawiar could easily take the space between them and the Lecarre and then expand rimwards.

The Risans have actually been mentioned to do a fair bit of colonization. They were first described as a race of peaceful explorers remember, and we've had a few events dealing with Risan colony worlds. They're peaceful expansionists, but there is an expansionist bent to their activities.
 
Really all we have to do is get the Klingons to launch a few expeditions in their direction.
That's a really dangerous game to play unless we do it just right.

Mainly because the most likely results are getting caught out at arraning proxy attacks, or the Dawair and Klingons meeting, falling in love, and the Dawair become honorary Klingons and we get blocked in rimward. Though I do suppose that getting the Cardassians to flip out and attack the Klingons through OUR space would be one way to short-circuit the Romulan-Klingon war (because the Rommies aren't going to jump in against the Klingons and us at once) and ensure the Cardassians get smushed when we fight them. We're at a slight edge over them now, flip the Dawair and add the Klingons and we have enough force to send a 500 combat deathball at Cardassia Prime AND hold the line.
 
Mainly because the most likely results are getting caught out at arraning proxy attacks, or the Dawair and Klingons meeting, falling in love, and the Dawair become honorary Klingons and we get blocked in rimward.
We're mostly chill with the Klingons right now. The Dawiar falling in love with them still denies their assets to the Cardassians, which is all we really need.
 
Obsolete. See this post for a much improved version.

Plan Gabriel Warzone But Like A Version With The T'Mir
Planned Ship Changes
  • T'Mir (Oberth) comes back from overdue refit in 2313Q2 +1D
  • 2 Miranda-As (Shield and Fidelity) come back from refit in 2313.Q2 +4D
  • 2 Mirandas (Bon Vivant and T'Kumbra) go out for refit in 2313.Q2 -4D
Planned Defense Changes
  • Gabriel Border Zone to be created 2313.Q1 – No fixed requirement but there will be fighting there.
  • Estimate garrison of Apinae Sector in 2313.Q2 – Estimated 12 Defense (If lower, move ship to GBZ)
Sol Sector – Requires D18
  • Current – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood], 2 Miranda (4) [Dryad, Bon Vivant] (4), 1 Constellation [Selaya] (3), 1 Oberth [Suvek] (1), Starbase 1 (5) = 18D
  • New Q1 2313 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], 2 Miranda (4) [Dryad, Bon Vivant], 1 Constellation [Selaya] (3), Starbase 1 (5) = 20D
  • New Q2 2313 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], 1 Miranda (2) [Dryad], 1 Constellation [Selaya] (3), Starbase 1 (5) = 18D
  • Notes: Get Zephyr from SBZ and send Suvek to Andor in 2313.Q1. Send Bon Vivant to refit in 2313.Q2.
Vulcan Sector – Requires D12
  • Current – 1 Constellation [Sappho] (3), 2 Mirandas (4) [T'Kumbra, Thunderhead], Starbase I (5) = 12D
  • New Q1 2313 – No change.
  • New Q2 2313 – 2 Constellations (6) [Sappho, Vigour], 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel], Starbase I (5) = 12D
  • Notes: T'Kumbra sent to refit in 2313.Q2 and Thunderhead to Apinae Sector. Vigour brought in from CBZ and Torbriel brought in from anti-Syndicate Task Force.
Andor Sector – Requires D9
  • Current - 1 Constellation (3) [Docana], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Lightning], Starbase I (5) = 11D
  • New Q1 2313 - 1 Constellation (3) [Docana], Oberth (1) [Suvek], Starbase I (5) = 9D
  • New Q2 2313 - No change.
  • Notes: Get Suvek from Sol, send Lightning to Amarkia Sector.
Tellar Sector – Requires D9
  • Current – 1 Constellation (3) [Stalwart], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 16D
  • New Q1 2313 – No change.
  • New Q2 2313 – No change.
  • Notes: No change.
Amarkia Sector – Requires D15
  • Current - 1 Excelsior (6) [Salnas], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Blizzard], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 19D
  • New Q1 2313 - 2 Centaur-A (6) [Blizzard, Lightning], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 16D
  • New Q2 2313 - No change.
  • Notes: Salnas send to GBZ; Lightning brought in from Andor.
Ferasa Sector – Requires D15
  • Current - 1 Excelsior (6) [Avandar], 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], Starbase I (5) = 16D
  • New Q1 2313 - No change.
  • New Q2 2313 - No change.
  • Notes: No change.
Rigel Sector – Requires D9
  • Current – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Republic], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Gale], 1 Starbase I (5) = 13D
  • New Q1 2313 – No change.
  • New Q2 2313 - 1 Centaur-A (3) [Gale], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Shield], Starbase I (5) = 10D
  • Notes: Republic sent to Apinae Sector and Shield posted here when it returns.
Apinae Sector – Assumed to Require D12 as of 2313.Q2
  • Current – Starbase I (5) [Grand Hive of Apinae], Extra Outposts (5)
  • New Q2 2313 - 1 Constellation (3) [Challorn], 1 Miranda (2) [Thunderhead], Starbase I (5) [Grand Hive of Apinae], Extra Outposts [5] = 15D
  • Notes: Bringing in Challorn in from GBZ, with the Thunderhead coming from Vulcan.
Romulan Border Zone – Requires D12
  • Current - 1 Excelsior (6) [Excelsior], 1 Miranda (2) [Svai], Oberth [Hawking] (1), Starbase I (5) = 14D
  • New Q1 2313 - No change.
  • New Q2 2313 - No change.
  • Notes: No change.
Klingon Border Zone – Requires D6
  • Current - 1 Excelsior (6) [Thirishar], 1 Miranda (2) [Intrepid], 1 Oberth (1) [Inspire] = D9.
  • New Q1 2313 – No change.
  • New Q2 2313 – No change.
  • Notes: No change.
Cardassian Border Zone – Requires D10
  • Current – 1 Excelsior (6) [Kumari), 1 Constitution-B (5) [Valiant], 2 Constellations (6) [Challorn, Vigour], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Winterwind], Starbase I (5) [Lapycorias] = 25D
  • New Q1 2313 – 1 Excelsior (6) [Kumari), 1 Constitution-B (5) [Valiant], 1 Constellation (3) [Vigour], Starbase I (5) [Lapycorias] = 19D
  • New Q2 2313 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Kumari), 1 Constitution-B (5) [Valiant], Starbase I (5) [Lapycorias] = 16D
  • Notes: Send the Challorn and the Winterwind to the Gabriel Border Zone in 2313.Q1. Send the Vigour to garrison Vulcan sector in 2313.Q2.
Sydraxian Border Zone – Requires D9
  • Current – 1 Excelsior [Endurance] (6), 1 Constitution-B (5) [Defiant], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], 2 Mirandas (4) [Eketha, Calypso], Starbase I (5) [Vega] = 23D
  • New Q1 2313 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Defiant], 1 Miranda (2) [Eketha], Starbase I (5) [Vega] = 12D
  • New Q2 2313 – No change.
  • Notes: Move Zephyr to Sol and move the Endurance and the Calypso to the GBZ in 2313.Q1.
Gabriel Border Zone (starts 2313.Q1) – Requirement Left to Starfleet judgment
  • Current – Nothing
  • New Q1 2313 - 2 Excelsiors (12) [Salnas, Endurance], 2 Constitution-B (10) [Korolev, Saratoga], 1 Constellation (3) [Challorn], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Winterwind], 1 Miranda (2) [Calypso] = 30D
  • New Q2 2313 – 2 Excelsior (12) [Salnas, Endurance], 3 Constitution-B (5) [Korolev, Saratoga, Republic], Centaur-A (3) [Winterwind], 1 Miranda (2) [Calypso], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Fidelity], 1 Oberth (1) [T'Mir] = 35D (38(?) combat)
  • Notes: Salnas from Amarkia Sector, Endurance from SBZ, Korolev and Saratoga from unassigned pool, and Challorn sent from the Cardassian Border Zone. In 2313.Q2 bring Republic in from Rigel sector, send Challorn to new Apinae Sector, and bring T'Mir and Fidelity in from refit.
Anti-Syndicate Task Force – No fixed Requirement
  • Current – 1 Constitution-B [Lexington], 1 Constellation [Kearsage], 1 Centaur-A [Yukikaze], 1 Oberth [Torbriel]
  • New Q1 2313 – No change.
  • New Q2 2313 – 1 Constitution-B [Lexington], 1 Constellation [Kearsage], 1 Centaur-A [Yukikaze]
  • Notes: In Q2 2312 send the Torbriel to Vulcan Sector.

In short for this version: we pull a Miranda-A from the GBZ and use it to cover Rigel in getting the T'Mir. However, I don't think this is the most efficient use -- there is probably a Miranda I can flip around somewhere in here, if I had the time to make a spreadsheet.

However, there's another option where we can swap a Miranda from the Apinae deployment to Rigel, thus not losing combat capability in the GBZ, and slotting the T'Mir in. This will give it more 'frontline' access to the GBZ while being more safe. Call this [ ] Plan Gabriel Warzone T'Mir in Apinae.

Alternatively, we could retain Winterwind in the CBZ alongside the Kumari and add the T'Mir, sending the Valiant to the GBZ and keeping Republic in the Rigel sector. Call this [ ] Plan Gabriel Warzone T'Mir in CBZ.

If we want Valiant and Republic in GBZ, we could swap in the Shield as planned to Rigel or if someone can find a spare Miranda, do that. We're thinner on the CBZ in this scenario and replace a Miranda-A with a Connie-B in the GBZ. Call this [ ] Plan Gabriel Warzone Cruiser Heavy.

Honestly I think our best bet for getting T'Mir near where it's hot is to either send it to Apinae or the CBZ, but not in the GBZ itself. If you send it direct to GBZ you're probably swapping it for a Miranda-A from somewhere.

Any feedback appreciated!
 
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