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uju32 said:
I did?
Your own quote makes it clear the first BoP the Joyeuse killed had already seen combat, and it still took two torpedo hits to bring down its remaining shields for a phaser kill

Furthermore?
The Joyeuse's command crew wasnt paying attention to the D7s after its collision with the BoP
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You have no actual proof that either the D7 or BoP in the passage received any damage before engaging the Joyeuse other than wanting to believe that they didn't while I can clearly quote that the D7's staying out of the fighting till they engaged the Joyeuse.

In addition, the BoP that ate two torpedoes is also noted as a bogey (Bogey: (n) an unidentified flying object or radar target.), which suggests that it isn't the BoP that fired at them previously and prior to engaging the Joyeuse likely hadn't taken part in the fighting or it would have already been identified before it's approach like the D7's were rather than being initially marked as an unidentified ship.
Sayle said:
"Aye Captain, aft phasers ceasing fire." Hadley checked his scopes. "The light cruisers are engaged at the center of the line. D7s still hanging back. Wait - we have a bogey coming up our port. Bird-of-Prey, they're going to overshoot."

"Ready tubes one and two, standby forward phasers."

The Bird-of-Prey swooped past the ship on the right, it's path curving across the bow of the Joyuese. The pair of photons launched almost simultaneously, a pair of cool-blue sapphires slamming into the smaller ship. The first splashed against the dorsal shields, but the second bled through the bubble with the effect of a hammer, the smaller ship's left wing jerking sharply down. Almost wobbling on its axis, the Bird-of-Prey flipped over to face the Joyeuse in a move that saw a scintillating blue phaser beam sweeping through empty space.
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StriderInCosmos said:
Which, as I just said, means that our focus needs to be on allowing the ship to be remarkably versatile, not just a big beat stick. The cost is going to be high, but giving the project a remarkably broad mission profile will likely make the pill at least a little easier to swallow (the potential ability to refit the nacelle rollbars to carry mission pods could help in that regard). A part of me wonders if the upcoming end of the treaty period with the Klingons might have made us a little too focused on the weapons profile of the ship.

Part of me also sometimes wonders how the Martian plains don't have a crater where our offices used to be, with how spirited our discussions can get.
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It is hard to focus on module choices because we have no idea what they will be. We have a good idea about what phaser and torpedo load outs we will pick between well before those votes. Modules we frequently have no idea what will be on offer in the next vote, much less have an idea of what modules will be on offer generally.

It makes it hard to plan anything. We end up just reacting to the modules on offer and trying to add hock a synergy with the last votes.
 
StriderInCosmos said:
Which, as I just said, means that our focus needs to be on allowing the ship to be remarkably versatile, not just a big beat stick. The cost is going to be high, but giving the project a remarkably broad mission profile will likely make the pill at least a little easier to swallow (the potential ability to refit the nacelle rollbars to carry mission pods could help in that regard). A part of me wonders if the upcoming end of the treaty period with the Klingons might have made us a little too focused on the weapons profile of the ship.

Part of me also sometimes wonders how the Martian plains don't have a crater where our offices used to be, with how spirited our discussions can get.
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I don't believe there's any set of modules you can put on this thing that will outweigh the utility of two generalist cruisers and some change left over. If we had wanted unique functionality (subjective to command's actual request of a heavy cruiser and not a flagship) to make this stand out the flight deck was the chance to make that happen.
 
[X] 6 Phaser Banks (Type V) [Damage: 32] [60% Coverage] [Cost: 129]
[X] 10 Phaser Banks (Type V) [Damage 32] [100% Coverage] [Cost: 149]
 
Wootius said:
I don't believe there's any set of modules you can put on this thing that will outweigh the utility of two generalist cruisers and some change left over. If we had wanted unique functionality (subjective to command's actual request of a heavy cruiser and not a flagship) to make this stand out the flight deck was the chance to make that happen.
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Two ships with 10 science are rolling twice with +10. A ship with 20 science is rolling once with +20. The former has less variance, but the latter has both a higher floor and ceiling in what it can do.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
It is hard to focus on module choices because we have no idea what they will be
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We have some idea, at the very least; Starfleet's okay with less in the way of scientific modules to allow for an increased variety or scale of other modules, likely because other vessels (like Project Miranda or other extant vessels) will be capable of picking up the slack. With where we are now, I'd focus on modules that advance the ship's diplomatic capabilities (not just conference rooms, but also something like medical/pharmacological facilities, light fabrication capabilities, and large-scale transporters for fabricated components); this may be a heavily armed ship, but its range and potential capability could make it, if not a first-contact ship, then at least a very capable second-contact ship.

I still thusly maintain that we've put far too much focus on the weapons complement. And I wonder at the wisdom of throwing my hat into an already stuffed ring.
 
StriderInCosmos said:
We have some idea, at the very least; Starfleet's okay with less in the way of scientific modules to allow for an increased variety or scale of other modules, likely because other vessels (like Project Miranda or other extant vessels) will be capable of picking up the slack. With where we are now, I'd focus on modules that advance the ship's diplomatic capabilities (not just conference rooms, but also something like medical/pharmacological facilities, light fabrication capabilities, and large-scale transporters for fabricated components); this may be a heavily armed ship, but its range and potential capability could make it, if not a first-contact ship, then at least a very capable second-contact ship.

I still thusly maintain that we've put far too much focus on the weapons complement. And I wonder at the wisdom of throwing my hat into an already stuffed ring.
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I don't get that from the tender. I get that from the Miranda's tender, that Starfleet was willing to accept shallow capability due to wanting broad ability and a smaller mass budget.

But the Federation tender asks for deep capability in an area of need. That says to me "specialize in something", not "be a generalist". The Miranda is the generalist.

I feel Starfleet wants the Federation to have a peacetime mission beyond just being a ship with basic capability.
 
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The Miranda also is noted as skimping on science compared to other modules, at least as long as it sticks to its briefs, with the freed up space used for "tactical, engineering and utility concerns." with us already knowing it's got big shuttlebays and cargo spaces (even if they'd be less voluminous compared to what we could stick here).

The Federation meanwhile is envisioned as a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea, so an emphasis on science and cargo would (imo) make sense. Even if both it and the Miranda offer up the latter, it's never going to be able to match us for speed, kinda like how the Newton could never match the cargo bulk of the Archer.
 
Then my understanding is thus flawed, and I disappear into the aether yet again. I'll pop back up... sometime, I'm sure, when the fancy strikes me.
 
Out of curiosity I was running the numbers on what we've spent vs what we could've theoretically spent, and is it just me or is our current cost not including the cost of our shields?

Based on this post we're due to pay 16.7 per 100k tons, which at our current weight would be 50.1. Adding up the price tag for all the components taken thus far (including the ten type V phasers expected to win) comes to the 149 which matches the figure in the last threadmark. But we've never actually paid for the shields, so we're actually sitting at 199.1 as our total project cost so far, barring any changes to the mass which I don't think we can expect from any of the choices ahead.
 
Wootius said:
I don't believe there's any set of modules you can put on this thing that will outweigh the utility of two generalist cruisers and some change left over. If we had wanted unique functionality (subjective to command's actual request of a heavy cruiser and not a flagship) to make this stand out the flight deck was the chance to make that happen.
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We can still have unique functionality if we vote for Pharmacology~
 
Ebiris said:
Out of curiosity I was running the numbers on what we've spent vs what we could've theoretically spent, and is it just me or is our current cost not including the cost of our shields?

Based on this post we're due to pay 16.7 per 100k tons, which at our current weight would be 50.1. Adding up the price tag for all the components taken thus far (including the ten type V phasers expected to win) comes to the 149 which matches the figure in the last threadmark. But we've never actually paid for the shields, so we're actually sitting at 199.1 as our total project cost so far, barring any changes to the mass which I don't think we can expect from any of the choices ahead.
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But the shield cost is baked into the mass cost, so it's already accounted for.
 
With module considerations I think we need to look at what ships are being phased out and what ships are being built.

The Archer Retrospective mentions that a lot of Archers were pumped out post-war to make up for losses during the war as well as to help out with the rebuilding efforts (S Rank Engineering is a helluva drug).

The QM has revealed the Miranda's module loadout and it basically mirrors the Newton's loadout and given the fact that the Miranda's are using mature technologies it's also going to be dirt cheap relatively speaking.
Sayle said:
Shuttles, cargo, basic science. It's an everyman cruiser designed to potter around the interior helping out where help is needed.
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That pretty much means that Starfleet's going to be well covered from an Engineering requirements perspective.

On the other hand, if we look at the 4 Year War losses just from 2240 alone nearly 1/3 of the Saladins are gone along with 1/5 of the Sagarmatha's and a Kea.

That's a significant dip in Science capabilities just in that year, not to mention that the Saladin's facilities are noted to be obsolescent by 2240 anyways and the Sagarmatha's were phased out after the war.
Sayle said:
The Saladin accomplished vital industrial work in its dilithium prospecting missions, very much paying for their own warp engines, but after 2240 the shortcomings of their single-nacelle design and lesser capabilities effectively removed their status as a science ship only three decades after their launch.
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While the Attenborough's and Atwater's (10 ships total) are science ships at only 10 combined hulls (about 2/3 of the Saladin count) and being very small and specialized ones at that I don't they they are able to even remotely pick up the slack from all of Starfleet's losses and future demands.

With that in mind, I think a heavy lean into Science facilities with some Engineering capabilities for self sufficiency when operating on the edges of the Federation's borders makes the most sense if we want a large production run.

Edit:
TLDR: Archer too successful and Miranda too cheap so Starfleet's covered when it comes to Engineering Ships, lots of dead/retired Science ships and not enough replacements so moar science is probably the right move.
 
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And doing so ignores command's direct statements to scientific facilities. :V

I ask you to find the quest text that says we have the explicit mandate to exclude or emphasize engineering.
 
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I do think cargo is something we should not ignore regardless of what else we should do. The Federation, Miranda, and Archer could perform radically different cargo functions.

The Archer is the current reigning king of mass transit of cargo. We will not unseat that, but at this point she is frankly quite slow. That still leaves an invaluable job moving bulk cargo that can afford to get there on it's own time.

The Miranda, even if it has modest cargo, will be great for routine cargo transport. This is mostly on the back of there being a lot of them and there being high likelihood that a Miranda is headed that direction anyway. This will cover a lot of routine cargo shipments and free Archers from needing to swing by every system on their way to a destination dropping small amounts of cargo at every one. This means the Archer can focus on doing the bulk deliveries that other ships simply can't.

And the Federation is, as I said before, by significant degree, the logistically fastest ship in the fleet and likely will be for some time. Give it a moderate cargo capacity and it fills the role of critical delivery quite well.

Wootius said:
And doing so ignores command's direct statements to exclude scientific facilities. :V
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That line is from the Miranda portion of the tender. It does not apply to the Federation.
 
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LOLROFL said:
With module considerations I think we need to look at what ships are being phased out and what ships are being built.

The Archer Retrospective mentions that a lot of Archers were pumped out post-war to make up for losses during the war as well as to help out with the rebuilding efforts (S Rank Engineering is a helluva drug).

The QM has revealed the Miranda's module loadout and it basically mirrors the Newton's loadout and given the fact that the Miranda's are using mature technologies it's also going to be dirt cheap relatively speaking.

That pretty much means that Starfleet's going to be well covered from an Engineering requirements perspective.

On the other hand, if we look at the 4 Year War losses just from 2240 alone nearly 1/3 of the Saladins are gone along with 1/5 of the Sagarmatha's and a Kea.

That's a significant dip in Science capabilities just in that year, not to mention that the Saladin's facilities are noted to be obsolescent by 2240 anyways and the Sagarmatha's were phased out after the war.

While the Attenborough's and Atwater's (10 ships total) are science ships at only 10 combined hulls (about 2/3 of the Saladin count) and being very small and specialized ones at that I don't they they are able to even remotely pick up the slack from all of Starfleet's losses and future demands.

With that in mind, I think a heavy lean into Science facilities with some Engineering capabilities for self sufficiency when operating on the edges of the Federation's borders makes the most sense if we want a large production run.
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This ignores the Excaliburs, which are effectively used as explorers in peacetime, both because the Sagarmarthas are being decommissioned and because it's the only peacetime role they're suited for.

The Keas will continue to be fine as large science specialists, they were just refit, and we've also introduced the Attenboroughs. Saladins will remain in service for another twenty years, and with Miranda's to take up patrol they have nothing else to do.

We really, really do not need even more science ships.
 
Lohjak said:
This ignores the Excaliburs, which are effectively used as explorers in peacetime, both because the Sagarmarthas are being decommissioned and because it's the only peacetime role they're suited for.

The Keas will continue to be fine as large science specialists, they were just refit, and we've also introduced the Attenboroughs. Saladins will remain in service for another twenty years, and with Miranda's to take up patrol they have nothing else to do.

We really, really do not need even more science ships.
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And yet Starfleet won't let me build a large warp 8 core large cargo pod super archer.

Starfleet - What is this?

BP - An Archer, but twice as big and twice as fast. Twice the engineering score too.

Starfleet - I hate you twice as much.
 
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Wootius said:
And doing so ignores command's direct statements to scientific facilities. :V

I ask you to find the quest text that says we have the mandate to exclude engineering.
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The only thing either brief says about scientific facilities is concerning the Miranda-class.

The first proposal is for a midweight generalist. The hope is that Project Miranda will produce a starship with a reduction in non-vital capabilities in exchange for a reasonably costed and capable generalist able to take up missions as required. As an in-territory vessel with only basic scientific facilities, the freed space could be utilised for tactical, engineering, and utility concerns. The main question would be what non-auxiliary areas would be sacrificed to drive the costs down.

The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.
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You'll note that there's nothing about scientific capabilities (except perhaps indirectly, mentioning that this ship is more along the lines of the Kea-class, a science shop) in the Federation brief. Nobody claimed that the text said engineering should be excluded, just that between the warp 8 Newton and the Archer it's probably not going to be needed as much.
 
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Tank man said:
The only thing either brief says about scientific facilities is concerning the Miranda-class.
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and having an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities
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I ask you to find the quest text that says we have the explicit mandate to exclude or demphasize engineering.
 
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Wootius said:
And doing so ignores command's direct statements to exclude scientific facilities. :V
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Starfleet said not going for moar science is ok, not that they didn't want moar science.
Sayle said:
Having elected to work on a heavy cruiser you hand off Project Miranda to San Francisco. Project Federation is likely to be equal if not exceeding in mass any design you've built to date, and having an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities beyond the basics means you can have some fun with the mission profile. But before you even get to planning the hull geometry you need to know what you're working with.
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The actual requirements just ask for some nebulous requirement of being capable in vital areas of interest without stating what those are.
Sayle said:
The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.
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Considering the fact that the Excaliburs struggled with being an Explorer:
Sayle said:
The high attrition rate suffered by the Excalibur-class during the Pathfinder Missions was a major factor in the codification of the 'explorer' as a specific design brief. The stunning performance of the Enterprise in the course of its duties was considered the result of the spectacular brilliance of its command crew and their ability to accomplish novel solutions with limited resources. Future long-term missions beyond resupply would be traditionally accomplished by ships specifically designed for the task.
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And the Saladin's classification as a science ship was dropped in the 2240's and the Kea losing it's Dilithium-analysis suite there is a clear need for more science ships capable of operating on the Federation's borders given the fact that the Excalibur with it's downright lacking science facilities was pressed into that job.
Sayle said:
No further orders were made of either class as new technology obsoleted their constituent parts. The Kea-class underwent a retrofit in 2240 to install a pair of forward torpedoes and lost its dilithium-analysis suite in favour of an expansion of its antimatter reserves, turning the ship into a budget heavy cruiser.

...

The Saladin accomplished vital industrial work in its dilithium prospecting missions, very much paying for their own warp engines, but after 2240 the shortcomings of their single-nacelle design and lesser capabilities effectively removed their status as a science ship only three decades after their launch.
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