Starfleet Design Bureau

We know that attack craft work pretty well in Star Trek because the Peregrine attack ships that Starfleet uses in the Dominion War seem to work pretty well. Honestly they seem more like torpedo boats than "fighters", doctrinally speaking, given they don't go much faster than an equivalently-engined escort, which might explain why they're an optional thing rather than having taken over space warfare. It also seems like there might be some features of Starfleet doctrine which make them a better "break glass in case of emergency war" option for SF than for other Alpha quadrant powers.

I made a post in the other quest about this, which actually mostly draws from a post on the Daystrom Institute on Reddit.

It would be cool to design a fighter craft that we operate in limited numbers during peacetime but can crank out in massive numbers during a war; I think. Honestly this is a good move for Starfleet since it means essentially any starship with a large shuttle bay can gain a large increase in its combat effectiveness. And Starfleet starships all have massive shuttle bays by the standards of most AQ powers.
 
Peregrine attack fighters and a support ship for them are definitely something I want to build at some point. A ship roughly the size of a multirole cruiser with the space for scientific equipment replaced by an oversized bay, spare parts, and fuel so that the pilots have somewhere to head to when they get damaged.
 
We know that attack craft work pretty well in Star Trek because the Peregrine attack ships that Starfleet uses in the Dominion War seem to work pretty well. Honestly they seem more like torpedo boats than "fighters", doctrinally speaking, given they don't go much faster than an equivalently-engined escort, which might explain why they're an optional thing rather than having taken over space warfare. It also seems like there might be some features of Starfleet doctrine which make them a better "break glass in case of emergency war" option for SF than for other Alpha quadrant powers.

I made a post in the other quest about this, which actually mostly draws from a post on the Daystrom Institute on Reddit.

It would be cool to design a fighter craft that we operate in limited numbers during peacetime but can crank out in massive numbers during a war; I think. Honestly this is a good move for Starfleet since it means essentially any starship with a large shuttle bay can gain a large increase in its combat effectiveness. And Starfleet starships all have massive shuttle bays by the standards of most AQ powers.
Ehhh, I'm not sure this really holds for all time periods. Peregrines are runabout-sized, which means that the Galaxy class, with a shuttlebay the size of an entire Constitution saucer, can hold three or four. Any fighters closer to shuttle sized (like the ones seen in DSC season two) might carry a torpedo or two but even then 23rd-century shuttle bays are only carrying a small number. I'd see upgunned runabouts being mostly being something based out of a starbase or ground facility to supplement local defenses.

There might be room for something closer to a torpedo boat tender or US-style amphibious carrier intended to hold shuttles and ground assault craft, but even then I'm not sure it fits Starfleet doctrine.
 
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I know a way to justify a Thunderchild replacement we leverage the ridiculous engineering score that such a design most have due to its role. So if you need to build or expand a colony this beast can both provide every equipment need and protect it at the same time.
Also it will probably have alot of cargo space so it can double has disaster relief or supply to dangerous regions.
 
What would be really funny is to design a mated station tug that is built like a Sagramatha but with the saucer cut off.

It then ships fully constructed 200,000 ton saucer assemblies wherever they are needed. It just docks with them and pushes them around, able to envelope the entire 200,000 ton station in it's warp field.
 
Whilst we're still quite a few years away from it (read at least 180) we do know that you can get quite nutty with tractor beams. From the Cerritos and that one other ship towing that titanic generation ship to the multi million tonne ESD (don't think we've ever been given a true mass, but it's certainly above the 58 million tonne that DITL gives it) being towed multiple light years.
 
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Omake: Second Contact (2192) [5]

Chapter 4: Second Contact Under Clouds of War


Star U-678B, Serina B, 4 Lightyears from Kzinti Border, August 2192

Captain Sukuda of the UFS Olympus regarded the brilliant blue and green world, sparking with silver and brilliant lights, and wished that he were here under better circumstances. The Oceanis Triumvirate, at any other time, would have been fascinating to sit down and have a long conversation with.

The Triumvirate, somewhat like the Xindi further north, were a conglomerate nation, composed of three species that had evolved together on the planet, two of them completely aquatic. Though, they claimed, this wasn't their homeworld, but one that they'd been transplanted to for mysterious reasons. Their mastery of ecology, and the terraforming technology it produced, could potentially make dozens, hundreds of worlds that much more habitable.

It was why he was here with a task force. Though it had been decades at this point, the specter of war loomed over the Federation, wearing a feline mask this time. Olympus, alongside the Mako and the Hammerhead, were here to help set up a defensive perimeter around the planet, should the Kzinti ever decide to come knocking. Triumvirate space-faring industry was a boon here, Triumvirate tenders moving the frankly rather massive satellites that Olympus, along with an engineering vessel, the Archimedes, had brought into their designated stations.

Fuku sat on the bridge watching the final few satellites be gently pushed into place, looking at the ships that did so. These ones were small, but they shared the sleek lines and curves, an almost biological grace, of the rest of the Triumvirate's nascent fleet. The nacelles on their warp-capable patrol boats were elongated teardrops, tapering toward the endpoint…

He chuckled softly. Mosi would have given him some small, playful grief, even as she would have wanted to get a closer look at the nacelles in question, to see if their differences were only skin deep.

"Captain? Is there something funny?"

Commander Zh'rena's question brought Sukuda out of his reverie as he looked up at his XO. "Just catching myself thinking about nacelles again, Thashin."

Zh'rena shrugged. "Well, I'm sure Mrs. Sukuda would rather be thinking about that."

Sukuda nodded. Mosi, for her wartime experience, hadn't been drafted back into Starfleet, thank god. She had, however, been pinned as a 'civilian strategic advisor', with the blessing of Yoyodyne. It had left her… strung out. If there wasn't a war going on, he'd have put in for some leave to go to Andor.

"Captain," Lieutenant Alex Hollyfield said from the comms station, "I'm getting a signal from a Triumvirate patrol boat."

"Put it on screen," Sukuda replied, standing and walking towards the forward viewport.

The view of the stars disappeared, replaced by an interior that was filled with water as a whale-like face regarded him. "Captain Sukuda," the being in front of him said, its voice somewhat ethereal as it passed through their translator matrix into the Olympus's, "this is Ship-Guide Luruuna of the Hirimiri. We're reading an unknown force coming out of warp at the edge of the system. One large vessel, about your size, along with three somewhat smaller vessels."

"Damn," Sukuda said quietly. "Stay clear and return home. It's probably the Kzinti. We'll deal with them. Olympus out."

"Good luck," Luruuna replied before the comm-screen flickered out.

"Red alert!" Sukuda said as he returned to his chair, the alarms beginning to blare. "Hollyfield, signal the Mako and the Hammerhead, tell them to form up on our flanks, then send a message asking when the defense system is going to be fully online."

"Yes, sir," Hollyfield replied as he got to work.

"Are we planning on going out and intercepting them, sir?" Zh'rena asked.

"We're the most heavily armed and shielded ships in the system," Sukuda said as he sat down. "What other choice do we have?"

The Olympus, under Lieutenant Desi's now expert guidance, pulled away from the sight of the now hurrying tenders with their satellite, angling towards the sensor locks that now showed up on long-range scanners. Mako and Hammerhead were not far behind as they began to make their way towards the newly arrived force.

"Captain," Hollyfield said, "Triumvirate Command and Archimedes both confirm it'll be about 15 minutes before the defense system is fully online."

Sukuda nodded. "Then we just need to hold out for that long. Helm, put us at station keeping at about 5 minutes away from the defense grid at full impulse. Once you get confirmation that it's online, signal the task group to turn and burn towards the grid."

"Aye, sir," Desi replied.

"Sensors confirm one Kzinti battlecruiser and three frigates, Captain." the ensign at navigation said. "Also picking up several runabout launches."

"Alright," Sukuda replied. "Put any reserve power we have towards weapons and shields. Those overloaded disruptors are going to be hell otherwise. We'll focus on taking down the frigates first, isolate the battle-cruiser. Time to contact?"

"5 minutes, sir." Navigation replied.

Sukuda took a deep breath as he settled in his seat and steeled himself. Battle again, after all these years. But at least now he didn't have to worry about cloaked surprises.

Cold comfort as he watched the darkness before him. Then, well-trained eyes picked out the artificial stars that were their enemies. "2 minutes to contact." Navigation replied.

"Tactical, prepare long-range torpedo fire. Begin by focusing on the battleship, throw is sensors for a loop for a few moments while we focus fire on the lead frigate, and pick off runabouts where possible." Sukuda continued to watch, no longer fully daring to break the silence that had settled over the crew.

"Fire!"

Several torpedoes flashed out towards the now distinct ships, the torpedoes slamming into the large, spear-like heavy cruiser, the frigates beginning to break off to try and surround the Olympus.

"Tell Mako and Hammerhead to pick a frigate and bring it down! We'll keep the others off their backs." Sukuda said, watching as the Selachiis sprang into action, picking the left-most vessel and bearing down on it with relentless phaser fire. The frigate, in defiance of all reason, pulled one of the tightest turns he'd ever seen a ship this size make. He could swear he saw the stress fractures appearing on the hull, even as several runabouts popped from their sustained phaser fire.

The others tried to come to the aid of their compatriot, but the Olympus battered them with its own weapons, the cruiser trying to breach their shields and the shields of the frigates to little avail at the moment as its targets began to spread out. After several long, ship-shaking moments, the first frigate went up in a brilliant explosion, another frigate that had been worn down by the Olympus's guns and targeted next by the Selachiis going up shortly after.

Finally, however, the cruiser's guns broke through Olympus's shields, hammering into the hull and threatening to send the crew to the floor. "Damage report!" Sukuda called out.

"Hull breaches in Decks 2 and 3, sections 5 through 8. Sealing off the sections now!" Lieutenant Dreyer replied. "Shields are coming back online, but they only brushed us."

"Tell the Selachiis they're on their own for the moment," Sukuda said firmly. "Focus all fire on the cruiser!"

As the Olympus turned away from the fight that the frigates engaged in, trying to keep the minimum distance away from the almost insanely aggressive Kzinti frigate, their guns laid into the heavy cruiser as they began their slow, measured maneuvering, lances of orange light and flashed of photon torpedoes raking across the surface of the Kzinti cruiser as they fired in return. The ship's shields were strong however, and still more overpowered disruptor shots managed to pierce through, one shot shattering the ventral port nacelle's Bussard collector, the nacelle itself cascading into a complete quench and nearly taking its sister dorsal nacelle with it.

"Damn." Sukuda gritted out as he climbed back into his seat. "Status on the frigates!"

"They just sent the enemy frigate up in flames," Zh'rena replied. "They're turning about to help us."

"Good," Sukuda replied. "We should be able to wear them down through weight of numbers."

"Sir!" Hollyfield said. "Triumvirate Command just informed us they've rushed activation of the defense grid section closest to us!"

"Excellent," Sukuda said. That section was made up of about 10, though hastily designed, powerful phaser and torpedo satellites. "Divert all shield power to the aft shields and turn us about. Let them think they've got us on the run. Inform the Mako and Hammerhead and tell them to do the same."

"Sending messages now," Hollyfield said as the ship slowly turned about, making its best course towards the defense grid while throwing what fire it could behind it.

'No Thunderchild today.' Sukuda thought with a slight, grim smile, thoughts turning back to the sight of his ship and the remains of its nacelle drifting dead in space at Cheron. He had to thank whoever thought of four nacelles for this ship instead of the usual two. It might have just saved their lives.

"2 minutes until we're in range…" Desi replied before a solid hit near their bridge sent sparks flying, EPS conduits overloading and sealing off as screens flickered.

"Hold on!" Sukuda said, willing the ships to get to that finish line no one could see, but all could feel in their gut.

Then, they were through. "Scatter and give the turrets a clear shot!" Sukuda said, almost feeling the Olympus dive as he gave his command. The view in front of them came to life with an armament that would have outclassed even all of the Thunderchild-class ships put together, a forest of phaser fire interspersed by constellations of photon torpedoes that tore the Kzinti ship apart in a matter of minutes.

And like that, the skirmish was over. Sukuda allowed himself a quiet sigh of relief. "Casualties?" he asked the dreaded question.

Hollyfield listened attentively at his station. "10 dead, 45 wounded," he said, the words dark and heavy.

Sukuda sighed quietly. "Get a list together. I'll need to inform their families."

. . .

"You showed remarkable bravery yesterday, Rear Admiral." The Landstrider leader of the Triumvirate, an almost penguin-like being that rose to his chest in height, remarked as he sipped from a straw that accommodated his beak. "And I mourn with you for the loss of your comrades."

"Thank you, Representative Kokorina," Sukuda replied. He gazed out at the beatific world that they now stood on. "I think they would have been proud to give their lives preserving a world like this one."

"We will honor their sacrifice in our own ways," Kokorina replied. After a moment, the avian looked up at Sukuda. "It is a shame to see you go. I would have liked to introduce you to some of our underwater cities, even if you needed the aid of technology. The coral growths this time of year are beautiful here."

"Perhaps another time," Sukuda said. "For now, we need to go and do what we did here for the Birrin people a few lightyears over. They're another Federation protectorate that reached out to us after discovering warp travel and stumbling upon one of our science vessels."

"I wish the best for them," Kokorina replied. "And I hope, in time, to join your Federation, and share the wonders that we've managed to find ourselves."

"As do I," Sukuda replied. "And hopefully, that can be a time of peace when you do."

A/N: If you recognize the references to the speculative evolution works that I've mentioned (and put a focus on) here, then caps off to you. I'd highly recommend finding the series on Serina and the Birrin. They are... fascinating. *Slight brow raise*
 
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Ehhh, I'm not sure this really holds for all time periods. Peregrines are runabout-sized, which means that the Galaxy class, with a shuttlebay the size of an entire Constitution saucer, can hold three or four. Any fighters closer to shuttle sized (like the ones seen in DSC season two) might carry a torpedo or two but even then 23rd-century shuttle bays are only carrying a small number. I'd see upgunned runabouts being mostly being something based out of a starbase or ground facility to supplement local defenses.

There might be room for something closer to a torpedo boat tender or US-style amphibious carrier intended to hold shuttles and ground assault craft, but even then I'm not sure it fits Starfleet doctrine.

If we're assuming that the size of an attack craft in the 23rd century is the same as that in the late 24th century, then yes, this would be a problem. But it seems more likely to me that the optimal size for a bomber/torpedo boat would increase as the average size of ships also increases. The 23rd century equivalent of a Peregrine would likely be smaller, and more easily accommodated in 23rd century shuttle bays.

That being said, tender vessels are honestly a fascinating period of naval history mostly forgotten by pop-culture, and a great source of inspiration for sci-fi. So I certainly would not be averse to taking a leaf from that book either. It really all depends on what @Sayle finds most interesting, at the end of the day.
 
Are there any of our previous ship designs that it would be worth refitting with current generation technology? I agree that while they wouldn't be as good as a new ship design, that would take years to design, build and test before production can even begin. While refits can be planned out in only a few months at most.
 
Not really. Skates were the newest model before the paradigm shift of warp 7, they're too small to bother with.

Thunderchild is second newest, there's only one ship left of the class and she's already scheduled to retire.
 
Given how little we see of TMP style refits (in terms of change to the physical structure of the ship) before said era (outside of the NX-class, which we more or less went with to start here), it's likely not all that economical to do so at the moment.
 
Are there any of our previous ship designs that it would be worth refitting with current generation technology? I agree that while they wouldn't be as good as a new ship design, that would take years to design, build and test before production can even begin. While refits can be planned out in only a few months at most.

New tech like shields seems to take up too much space for more power generation. The Shark was a straight upgrade to the Skate and it's 100k tons heavier. The Skate just wouldn't have room to add new stuff.

This war isn't existential enough to merit a crash build like the old builds.
 
Even if all we could do is new nacelles on our explorers, that would be a massive boost - especially if we can get their efficient cruise above warp 5. As they're not warships they would have a longer life expectancy
 
Presumably all our sensors and electronics are so much more advanced now that we might as well build a whole new package, even assuming that the frames of the old ships can hold up to more powerful engines/nacelles. I think a new long-range explorer is probably something we will get to soon-ish, postwar maybe.
 
I do hope if we are going to make a new Utility Cruiser to update the Cygnus, that we have some more advanced Internal components to justify it.

I think we'll still have one more production slate before we hit the cusp of ToS and get to produce the Connie, so that'll be fun. Just another tech generation ahead I think?
 
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A/N: If you recognize the references to the speculative evolution works that I've mentioned (and put a focus on) here, then caps off to you. I'd highly recommend finding the series on Serina and the Birrin. They are... fascinating. *Slight brow raise*

Wow, that takes me back. And the Birrin's history even mirrors Star Trek humanity's WW3, plenty of common ground there 👍
 
I would love to do more tech builds. Shields, phasers, and impulse engines all have ways we could diverge from canon that would be interesting.

Or a starbase build, that could be an option to Segway into strike fighter development if the thread wanted.
 
Personally not a fan of carrier-fighter paradigm in Star Trek. It doesn't play well with the whole Age of Sail vibe.
Same, age of sail esque reasoning makes the star trek setting unique, also I prefer the floating office building vibe that TNG gives off.
I mean, if you want to go age of sail and have fighter/bomber equivalents then why not make the craft carried by these carriers/tenders 'fireships'* in space? Basically big bombs to be sailed into enemy formations/ships or ports and let explode to massive effect (generally because they were worth far less than said places).

The Cardassian 'dreadnought' weapon is presumably an application of that concept.

*To be more precise, Hellburners given the explode in proximity/contact rather than do damage by fire thing.
 
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I mean, if you want to go age of sail and have fighter/bomber equivalents then why not make the craft carried by these carriers/tenders 'fireships'* in space? Basically big bombs to be sailed into enemy formations/ships or ports and let explode to massive effect (generally because they were worth far less than said places).

The Cardassian 'dreadnought' weapon is presumably an application of that concept.

*To be more precise, Hellburners given the explode in proximity/contact rather than do damage by fire thing.
Because that doesn't feel like Star Trek. A one off episode plot is one thing, but as some form of sustained doctrine? No thank you.

I'm in this thread because I like Star Trek and want to make things that feel like Star Trek.
 
Because that doesn't feel like Star Trek. A one off episode plot is one thing, but as some form of sustained doctrine? No thank you.

I'm in this thread because I like Star Trek and want to make things that feel like Star Trek.
It is an age of sail tactic, just a rather rare one.

In practice fireships/bombships, at least those dedicated designs of the Royal Navy, in the latter half of the age of sail ended up as polar exploration vessels owing to their highly sturdy construction. Assuming we build them less like 'dreadnoughts' and more like actual ships, just with excess toughness/large holds (for what would originally have been antimatter load), they could make some really good nebula/adverse stellar conditions exploration vessels once a fireship/bombship doctrine has passed.
 
I mean, if you want to go age of sail and have fighter/bomber equivalents then why not make the craft carried by these carriers/tenders 'fireships'* in space? Basically big bombs to be sailed into enemy formations/ships or ports and let explode to massive effect (generally because they were worth far less than said places).

The Cardassian 'dreadnought' weapon is presumably an application of that concept.

*To be more precise, Hellburners given the explode in proximity/contact rather than do damage by fire thing.
Thing is... Torpedoes exist. So why waste a perfectly good ship doing a torpedo's job? Or, in other contexts, an asteroid?
 
I do hope if we are going to make a new Utility Cruiser to update the Cygnus, that we have some more advanced Internal components to justify it.

I think we'll still have one more production slate before we hit the cusp of ToS and get to produce the Connie, so that'll be fun. Just another tech generation ahead I think?
Keep in mind, Structural materials, nacelles, impulse engines, torpedos are all out of date on the cygnus, and the type 1 phasers are set to be outmoded soon with Starfleet making type 2 noises. The Cygnus is very much out of date even now, not even getting into new technology in the offing.
 
A thought about the new utility crusier should we build it as more of a medium weight crusier since our new Sharks have the light warship role solidly locked down?
 
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