Starfleet Design Bureau

The point of the Federation isn't the coverage. I mean, it helps a lot in its main role, but the point is actually that it's huge and really hard to kill. Starfleet tried using light cruisers for this last war and it annihilated the Newton fleet. Keas fared much, much better (I don't think any of them died during the Battle of Andoria?) because they had the shields and hull to survive barely moving to stay in formation.

The Miranda will have roughly the same HP (38 vs 40 shields so a little more, 48 vs ~43 hull unless there are speed bonuses?) and a Medium speed rating at 200kt vs Slow 260kt. I'm not sure how the speed scaling works in reverse but the Kea was as slow as something ~500kt medium? With a 75% damage uplift(12 phaser damage vs 21, equal torpedoes but speed favors the Miranda) from new phaser tech vs the refit Kea.

Fair enough, though I'd like to note that whilst I disagree with your points I do still respect the effort you put into supporting them/making sure they're heard.

dankie. it's been a long vote, I should do something better with my vacation 🥹
 
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We should also consider the Cost/Lifespan. Instead of a cheap 100 cost design that is outdated and decommissioned after only 30 years, we're designing a 150 (ish) cost ship that could remain fit for purpose for 60 years.
 
The Miranda will have roughly the same HP (38 vs 40 shields so a little more, 48 vs ~43 hull unless there are speed bonuses?) and a Medium speed rating at 200kt vs Slow 260kt. I'm not sure how the speed scaling works in reverse but the Kea was as slow as something ~500kt medium? With a 75% damage uplift(12 phaser damage vs 21, equal torpedoes but speed favors the Miranda) from new phaser tech vs the refit Kea.
How are you getting 200kt for the Miranda? That would effectively put it at the same mass as a Constitution, which doesn't seem correct for how this quest has defined ship masses so far. There's certainly sources which describe the Miranda as massing nearly as much, but not over 95%.

It also wouldn't make much sense with the described modules of the Miranda:
Shuttles, cargo, basic science. It's an everyman cruiser designed to potter around the interior helping out where help is needed.
Unless it's dedicating multiple modules to shuttles or cargo, a 200kt ship should be significantly more capable than that. And it was described as a midweight ship that totals to 80 cost. Once we strip out 6 phasers, 4 torpedoes and a thruster, we end up about 45 cost remaining. Then we subtract two nacelles and a standard warp core, which cost 20 and weigh 40kt.

So unless San Fran is going where no man has gone before and cutting corners previously unheard of in the Federation, they're not buying 160kt of hull with 25 cost. This thing is not going to be anywhere near as durable as a Kea.

EDIT: After double checking the cost difference, I think it is actually possible to get something around 160kt with standard covariant, so it turns out the corner cutting necessary is probably quite reasonable.
 
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dankie. it's been a long vote, I should do something better with my vacation 🥹
No problem, as you say it's been a long vote, and part of our first post-war design, neither of those are exactly going to be the most conductive towards back and forth talks from people with differing opinions.

How are you getting 200kt for the Miranda? That would effectively put it at the same mass as a Constitution, which doesn't seem correct for how this quest has defined ship masses so far. There's certainly sources which describe the Miranda as massing nearly as much, but not over 95%.
The Miranda-class is more voluminous than the pre-refit Constitution, and thus outmasses it, the same is going to be true for the SDB Miranda to the Excalibur (which is already less massive than the Connie). I believe Sayle also mentioned as much.

Not quest cannon but per Star Trek v Star Wars volumetrics (which is probably the most comprehensive database of pre-2009 trek ship volumes and speculative masses on the internet).
Construction class (pre-refit): 211,248m3, and between 236,300 and 914,400 tonnes
Miranda class: 217,770m3 (vs refit Connie being 234,938m3) and between 243,600 and 942,700 tonnes.
 
The Miranda-class is more voluminous than the pre-refit Constitution, and thus outmasses it, the same is going to be true for the SDB Miranda to the Excalibur (which is already less massive than the Connie). I believe Sayle also mentioned as much.

Not quest cannon but per Star Trek v Star Wars volumetrics (which is probably the most comprehensive database of pre-2009 trek ship volumes and speculative masses on the internet).
Construction class (pre-refit): 211,248m3, and between 236,300 and 914,400 tonnes
Miranda class: 217,770m3 (vs refit Connie being 234,938m3) and between 243,600 and 942,700 tonnes.
Having actually taken a closer look at the hull numbers, assuming 6 phasers, 4 torpedo tubes, one thruster, two nacelles and a standard warp drive the Miranda should either be 230kt or 180kt depending on if it uses standard or heavy shields. 28 cost will buy 194kt of standard shielded hull or 142kt of heavy shielded hull.

This should give it either 46 or 45 shield and either 48 or 38 hull. If we do assume that it's slightly heavier than a canon Constitution, it would be 230kt which is also a Kea-sized heavy cruiser? I guess ships are getting bigger? It's also entirely more durable than a Kea and better armed to boot. How is this midweight?

Regardless, if it actually is the 230kt ship, we're a fair bit more durable with an extra 30 shield and an extra 10 hull and we'll hit harder with a similar weapons fit that all deals more damage, but we really do need to differentiate this by the modules. The Miranda will probably be refit with the same weapons as the Federation at some point (the same number too if we go with 6 phasers), so we're not going to hit harder for long. I still think it's probably worth spending extra to get full coverage, so we don't have literally the exact same weapons as a Miranda post-refit, but it probably doesn't matter that much.

That means our only real differentiation (aside from being 50% more durable) is our much-improved cruise speed and our extra 70kt of space, so we probably need to figure out something that involves a whole lot of flying all the time if we want to see a decent order quantity. If the Miranda is actually 230kt and carries a basic science lab, extra shuttles and cargo it'll probably have like 5 cargo modules, so that might make a dedicated cargo hauler unattractive. I'm not sure what else benefits so much from the max cruise, though. Emergency response or high-value cargo, maybe?
 
Having actually taken a closer look at the hull numbers, assuming 6 phasers, 4 torpedo tubes, one thruster, two nacelles and a standard warp drive the Miranda should either be 230kt or 180kt depending on if it uses standard or heavy shields. 28 cost will buy 194kt of standard shielded hull or 142kt of heavy shielded hull.

This should give it either 46 or 45 shield and either 48 or 38 hull. If we do assume that it's slightly heavier than a canon Constitution, it would be 230kt which is also a Kea-sized heavy cruiser? I guess ships are getting bigger? It's also entirely more durable than a Kea and better armed to boot. How is this midweight?

Regardless, if it actually is the 230kt ship, we're a fair bit more durable with an extra 30 shield and an extra 10 hull and we'll hit harder with a similar weapons fit that all deals more damage, but we really do need to differentiate this by the modules. The Miranda will probably be refit with the same weapons as the Federation at some point (the same number too if we go with 6 phasers), so we're not going to hit harder for long. I still think it's probably worth spending extra to get full coverage, so we don't have literally the exact same weapons as a Miranda post-refit, but it probably doesn't matter that much.

That means our only real differentiation (aside from being 50% more durable) is our much-improved cruise speed and our extra 70kt of space, so we probably need to figure out something that involves a whole lot of flying all the time if we want to see a decent order quantity. If the Miranda is actually 230kt and carries a basic science lab, extra shuttles and cargo it'll probably have like 5 cargo modules, so that might make a dedicated cargo hauler unattractive. I'm not sure what else benefits so much from the max cruise, though. Emergency response or high-value cargo, maybe?
A bit of everything might be attractive? I mean that quite seriously, if our ship is able to see off any intruders, deal with small-scale cargo deliveries, do pharmacology and optionally prospect for rare minerals, deal with diplomatic stuff etc it might be worth the cost knowing that any of those issues can be dealt with, rather than having to have multiple ships in the area. We can keep up an impressive warp 6.8 for months or years, that's a huge amount of missions it can undertake over time.
 
No idea how Sayle would go about it but listening to some Undiscovered Country stuff, I'd be interested to see how we could influence or be influenced by the pro-war faction.
 
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