Remove ads

Starfleet Design Bureau

Linked contents
Starship Design Bureau Starfleet Design Bureau
Reader mode
Candesce said:
The Kea has Medium Standard. The Kea's strong shielding comes from her bulk, not her beefed up shield generators.


Sure.

It just means paying out the nose for capability we will almost never need.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Iirc she came about before we split shields into weight classes so has medium by default. If we built her today/with the split existing back then we'd probably go for a heavy shield.

To quote one of the most influential naval officers of the late 19th/early 20th centuries:
 
Tank man said:
If we built her today/with the split existing back then we'd probably go for a heavy shield.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We intentionally built the Kea without torpedoes, to save on Cost. If we'd built it under today's rules we'd have gone with light shielding.

Fouredged Sword said:
The counter to THAT, of course, is a heavy cruiser than can simply tank them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Right, on this subject...

I think the Excalibur is closer in design to your proposed "glass cannon" design than anything else, not because it's made of glass but because it has a very, very big cannon.

If the Klingons can pull together the political and economic will for it - though I'd bet they can't - the military counter to the Excalibur should be to take their higher-quality-than-ours shielding and put it on a ship built to Federation scales rather than Klingon ones, so around 200kt+.

In other words, a whale ship.
 
Last edited:
Something else the Klingons should do is more flowing strategy. This may of course require more coordination between the great houses than they are actually capable of, but we shall see.

Essentially, they want to build for endurance. Accept that the Federation heavy ships can take them one one on one. Have a single fleet scattered over, oh, a hundred star systems in a ten light year radius bubble. Operate cloaked, move using using short warp hops every which way to confuse long range sensors. Then when you identify a good target you send up the signal and they all swarm with high Sprint. Fleet assembles in hours, hits the target with local overwhelming fire, disperses again. Repeat ad infinitum.

This only works with cloaked ships that can escape a confrontation, and only works with ships that have HIGH high range and endurance. But it lets the Klingons play the schooling fish to the Federation's shark... except that, if the shark seems vulnerable, the school is made out of piranhas.
 
Candesce said:
We don't need more than like 60 or so shield rating for a line cruiser who will last us for a long damned time. Even without refits to whatever new prototype shield is coming up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes you do.
Especially if you expect it to last you a long time.
Weapons technology is advancing in lethality as well, along with everything else.

Candesce said:
Additional context for these numbers:
The Excalibur has a shield rating of 36. The Kea, whose refit held up pretty well in exactly the role we're trying to fill, has 38.
An Excalibur refitted to Covariant Shielding will have 45.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Excalibur was refitted in 2265, two decades from now, or roughly 3 decades after the first one was launched.
We dont know if they went to Covariant, or whatever comes after.

Almost as importantly, Callie is Very High Maneuverability.
This isnt going to be.
Id like to be sure of High, but I cant swear to it. The Kea was Low, because of cost-cutting.
Candesce said:
We intentionally built the Kea without torpedoes, to save on Cost. If we'd built it under today's rules we'd have gone with light shielding.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Starfleet pointedly ripped a sensor suite out of the Kea in 2240 in order to give it a pair of forward torpedoes and more antimatter. Which is its own commentary on the cost argument.
 
darkstarling said:
Something else the Klingons should do is more flowing strategy. This may of course require more coordination between the great houses than they are actually capable of, but we shall see.

Essentially, they want to build for endurance. Accept that the Federation heavy ships can take them one one on one. Have a single fleet scattered over, oh, a hundred star systems in a ten light year radius bubble. Operate cloaked, move using using short warp hops every which way to confuse long range sensors. Then when you identify a good target you send up the signal and they all swarm with high Sprint. Fleet assembles in hours, hits the target with local overwhelming fire, disperses again. Repeat ad infinitum.

This only works with cloaked ships that can escape a confrontation, and only works with ships that have HIGH high range and endurance. But it lets the Klingons play the schooling fish to the Federation's shark... except that, if the shark seems vulnerable, the school is made out of piranhas.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That requires more centralization and self-abnegation than Klingon society appears willing to accept.
This is a society where the warships are designed so the command crew can defend the control room from rebellious crew after all.

Besides, that sort of concentration would draw Federation ships, who can afford to operate at a higher tempo inside thir own logistics network. Its something you can manage only once or twice, and then you lose all your ships as they get murdered by converging Federation vessels that are being vectored by massive fixed sensor arrays.
 
Another note on Klingon strategy. Birds of Prey can land. Especially good for hiding while cloaked AND for hauling off loot.

uju32 said:
That requires more centralization and self-abnegation than Klingon society appears willing to accept.
This is a society where the warships are designed so the command crew can defend the control room from rebellious crew after all.

Besides, that sort of concentration would draw Federation ships, who can afford to operate at a higher tempo inside thir own logistics network. Its something you can manage only once or twice, and then you lose all your ships as they get murdered by converging Federation vessels that are being vectored by massive fixed sensor arrays.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It depends if you can sell it as 'we're all out here, we take turns calling the raid, if it's a good raid you share the glory (but the one who called it gets the most)' or not. It's deliberately heavy on decentralized control, more akin to swarming bees. But you need to get everyone thinking they're on the same team first.

The Federation will definitely converge ships too, if they can. It's not a flawless strategy - the big way you defend against it is planetary fortifications, which mean that even if the fleet can appear and disappear quickly they will be forced to sit still battering those fortifications down. Sitting still means the Federation jumps you and you all have to cloak and scatter again, and dishonor to the idiot who called this raid!

And if a SINGLE Fed ship turns up, they've made themselves a target. It's also never clear just how many Klingons ships are actually operating in the bubble, so they can plan to jump the reinforcements with a second wave. And if the local patrols get too wise, well that's when you move on.

Basically, cloaking means you can operate behind enemy lines doing submarine stuff so you might as well take advantage with endurance and swarm tactics.
 
uju32 said:
You underestimate the need.
We have to replace, over the next forty years(2045-2085), the following ships

Cygnus-class cruiser: 28 built. Decommissioned 2255.
Selachii-class frigate: 38 built. Decommissioned 2245
Sagmartha-class explorer: 12 built. Decommissioned 2245.
Saladin-class cruiser: 16 built. Decommissioned 2271.
Newton-class cruiser: 30 built. Decommissioned 2282.

The Keas are not there, because they are decommed in the 2290s.
12 explorers.
112 cruisers.
Thats replacement, not expansion.

Even assuming that we dont build a new explorer until we begin work on the Excelsior project in the 2270s, and if you discount the Newtons entirely, we need to maintain an average build tempo of around 6 ships a year to replace all those ships with new hulls in the next decade and a half.

I would be surprised if we built fewer than 20.

Twin RFLs forward.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Im counting on 5 Miranda's to each federation. It's role profile has anchor and small task force leader means there is little point on mass production before the new nacelle tech when it's not solo it should be with 3 or 4 other ships.


unless it's that exceptional and/or SanFran fumbles the Miranda i don't see it change.

That there is another run after the nacelle tech makes some sense since these are our last designs with this version for a initial run i don't see it going alot more than 15.
With the sole exception being we hit a needed niche on ship capabilities like the Archer that inflates production.
 
Shard said:
Couldn't we make the Heavy Shields ship a 400kt ship?

Looking at the cost per shields and thrusters it seems like an expanded main energizer as opposed to an impulse shunt would have been the correct option in terms of cost effectiveness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's one way of viewing it. The other way is to argue that one isn't really properly making use of the stronger impulse engine then. After all with a stronger engine you can build bigger to make up the difference.

Each of these tech branches in the end have their pros and cons. Engines leads to bigger or faster ships that can be loaded with more stuff or choose engagements more freely. Energizers I guess makes compact ships more capable. As long as you build to their strengths it's fine, if you build against their strengths, then yeah it'll feel like they're under performing. That's just what happens if you don't play to the strengths of your technology after all.
 
Th3Saints said:
It's role profile has anchor and small task force leader means there is little point on mass production before the new nacelle tech when it's not solo it should be with 3 or 4 other ships.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Something to keep in mind, it'll be replacing our war loss Excaliburs (and probably those lost to the natural phenomena during exploration, to some degree) too as whilst it's unlikely to be a speed demon like them it'll still be a decent D-7 cracker and the sheer internal volume offered by our proposals should see it with a decent fit for the more general and light exploratory duties of the Excaliburs.
 
I mean, I doubt we'll do it, but a fun idea would be to do what we somewhat did with the Saggy and build a Proto-Explorer.

I doubt it'll happen because everything about this build is screaming DREADNOUGHT II: WARSPRITE IS STILL PISSED! to me.
 
Remove ads
2245: Project Federation (Saucer: Part One) New
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Heavy Shields

    With the shields baked into your calculations regarding manufacturing, resource expenditure, and assembly complexity you can now begin work on the spaceframe. The first question is exactly how wide the primary saucer will be, with several options in contention. The 'brim' section is always going to be the most massive component of the primary hull. Two decks is standard, allowing for the installation of rooms with higher ceilings and more working space.

    With that in mind you see three major options. The first is a full saucer of the same diameter as that used in the Excalibur-class: 140 meters. That will provide some space for internal systems while keeping costs stable. Adding more mass to bring the saucer to 180 meters will provide space for another set of modules for internal facilities and improve the available capabilities, but at a premium. Finally, an expansion to a thickness of three decks would open up the possibility of an inline deflector or extra-large cargo bays.

    Adding more mass improves the durability of the ship and the surface area its shields can diffuse energy over, so larger sizes have their own advantages, but if you want to spend that extra mass (and expense) on the saucer is a question in and of itself. It's a weighty decision, pun not intended. As this only constitutes a few decks of the finished saucer there will be more mass to add later, primarily determining whether the upper decks will be purely crew quarters and miscellaneous functions or if it can likewise mount some useful auxiliary systems. But that comes next, and for now you need to focus on the core of the saucer section.

    [ ] 140 Meter, 2 Decks (Mass: 46kt) [Cost: 9]
    [ ] 180 Meter, 2 Decks (Mass: 76kt) [Cost: 15]
    [ ] 180 Meter, 3 Decks (Mass: 114kt) [Cost: 22.5]

    Two Hour Moratorium, Please
     
    Last edited:
  • New
  • Threadmarks
    • Tank man said:
    Something to keep in mind, it'll be replacing our war loss Excaliburs (and probably those lost to the natural phenomena during exploration, to some degree) too as whilst it's unlikely to be a speed demon like them it'll still be a decent D-7 cracker and the sheer internal volume offered by our proposals should see it with a decent fit for the more general and light exploratory duties of the Excaliburs.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I kind of want to put a mild hold on exploration for a while. Starfleet is still going to do it, but I don't think we should build ships to facilitate it.

    All signs point to the Federation needing to consolidate the gains made in the years leading up to the Klingon War. We almost lost those gains because we hadn't hardened them. We didn't have the ships to protect them. The Federation grew too big too fast. We need time to grow into our territory.

    So I want something like a hospital ship that focuses more on growing existing colonies rather than founding new ones.

    [ ] 180 Meter, 3 Decks (Mass: 114kt) [Cost: 22.5]

    Big yes, but this seems light... I was looking for something in the 200kton range. To get this ship any sensible size will require a secondary hull bigger than the primary.
     
    Last edited:
    darkstarling said:
    Another note on Klingon strategy. Birds of Prey can land. Especially good for hiding while cloaked AND for hauling off loot.



    It depends if you can sell it as 'we're all out here, we take turns calling the raid, if it's a good raid you share the glory (but the one who called it gets the most)' or not. It's deliberately heavy on decentralized control, more akin to swarming bees. But you need to get everyone thinking they're on the same team first.

    The Federation will definitely converge ships too, if they can. It's not a flawless strategy - the big way you defend against it is planetary fortifications, which mean that even if the fleet can appear and disappear quickly they will be forced to sit still battering those fortifications down. Sitting still means the Federation jumps you and you all have to cloak and scatter again, and dishonor to the idiot who called this raid!

    And if a SINGLE Fed ship turns up, they've made themselves a target. It's also never clear just how many Klingons ships are actually operating in the bubble, so they can plan to jump the reinforcements with a second wave. And if the local patrols get too wise, well that's when you move on.

    Basically, cloaking means you can operate behind enemy lines doing submarine stuff so you might as well take advantage with endurance and swarm tactics.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I dont really think it works.

    In that scenario, the Federation has sensor advantages due to the fact that fixed sensors can straight up outmass your entire starship, and have much more permissive power budgets, as compared to what you can squeeze into a sub-150 kiloton Klingon ship.

    It has logistical advantages because its ships are operating closer to their basing, and can thus afford to run around at maximum cruise or faster burning AM inefficiently.
    While your Klingon ships have to strictly budget their fuel, and have no tanker ships to top up.

    It has communications advantages because the dedicated military subspace comm transmitters in systems will have much greater range than what you can squeeze into a Klingon starship.


    And then there's the simple cruel equations of currentgen warp drives maxing out at 1-2 light years a day.
    A bubble of space 20 light years across is almost 4200 cubic light years of volume.
    The Klingons only sent 150 ships to Andoria.

    The math doesnt math. Not with the current techbase.
    Endorfinator said:
    These are at minimum 33% more massive than the Excalibur-class. I'd be ecstatic if we make ten of them.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    The Excalibur is almost entirely a warship; this will have a secondary function(s).
     
    Honestly I think a full saucer at Excalibur scale would work alright here, as the ship is likely to have a much larger secondary hull, or at least I'd lean in that direction. I don't see a need for an inline deflector, so I'd lean towards the first two options and even the smaller of the two.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top