Yeah, the Saladin has an A- in tactical and weighs more than a D6, but since our tech was at the time dramatically inferior to the Klingons it doesn't really stand a chance.
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2245: The Cost of Peace
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There's no two ways to put it, the Four Years War has seriously diminished Starfleet's active roster. While much of the Excalibur-class remains active and potent, as are more than half the Kea-class ships that went into the conflict, there has been major attrition for less survivable starships. Fortunately the Archer-class represents a major logistical capability that is staunching the bleed of lingering capability losses towards the border, which has provided some breathing room to conceive a more lasting solution than emergency crash builds of older designs. While the Saladin and Selachii-classes were primarily combatants, the Newton was providing a useful response and utility function that the slower (and more logistically valuable) Archers are now having to cover.
More pertinently in strategic terms, however, the Newton's size and quality tactical systems made it the cruiser that made up the 'bulk' of fleet deployments during the war. Their ability to provide a stable firing position while other fleet elements maneuvered around or through their formations represent a key element of Federation fleet doctrine. Put simply, they need a replacement. To that end there are two competing ideas for how to accomplish this, and while Klingon debris is accelerating warp coil and hull metallurgy development, advancements are not expected to mature for some time yet. So you have to do it with the technology you have available today.
The first proposal is for a midweight generalist. The hope is that Project Miranda will produce a starship with a reduction in non-vital capabilities in exchange for a reasonably costed and capable generalist able to take up missions as required. As an in-territory vessel with only basic scientific facilities, the freed space could be utilised for tactical, engineering, and utility concerns. The main question would be what non-auxiliary areas would be sacrificed to drive the costs down.
The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.
[ ] Project Miranda (Midweight Generalist)
[ ] Project Federation (Heavy Line Cruiser)
Two Hour Moratorium, Please
More pertinently in strategic terms, however, the Newton's size and quality tactical systems made it the cruiser that made up the 'bulk' of fleet deployments during the war. Their ability to provide a stable firing position while other fleet elements maneuvered around or through their formations represent a key element of Federation fleet doctrine. Put simply, they need a replacement. To that end there are two competing ideas for how to accomplish this, and while Klingon debris is accelerating warp coil and hull metallurgy development, advancements are not expected to mature for some time yet. So you have to do it with the technology you have available today.
The first proposal is for a midweight generalist. The hope is that Project Miranda will produce a starship with a reduction in non-vital capabilities in exchange for a reasonably costed and capable generalist able to take up missions as required. As an in-territory vessel with only basic scientific facilities, the freed space could be utilised for tactical, engineering, and utility concerns. The main question would be what non-auxiliary areas would be sacrificed to drive the costs down.
The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.
[ ] Project Miranda (Midweight Generalist)
[ ] Project Federation (Heavy Line Cruiser)
Two Hour Moratorium, Please
- Location
- Earth
In about a century, landing capability can become smooth and robust. The Intrepid and Defiant-classes both come standard with landing capability and while the Intrepid was a science vessel that could have mission profiles like the Attenborough, the Defiant was an all-combat-all-the-time design that still had landing capability. Presumably landing capability for a ship that size only negligibly detracted from naval combat mission profiles, because it definitely couldn't do cargo or troop transport due to the size.
As for robust landing capability, the Intrepid-class faced some incredibly rough landing profiles and came through smoothly. It landed on a class-Y planet (nicknamed Demon-class) where entering orbit was dangerous, on the Vaadwaur bombed out inhospitable planet, and survived an intense cyclone that aliens formed around the ship. Voyager also landing another half dozen times on calmer worlds too, without regular shipyard maintenance. I would say we don't have routine and robust landing capabilities now, but what we've done eventually lays down the foundation for those capabilities in the future.
I'm definitely leaning towards this.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Please don't let's let SanFran build the Miranda.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
What approximate tonnage ranges are "Midweight" and "Heavy"?
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
A useful thing to note is the breakpoints for our thrusters:
Medium agility: 180,000 tons per thruster
High agility: 120,000 tons per thruster
Very High agility: 90,000 tons per thruster
Medium agility: 180,000 tons per thruster
High agility: 120,000 tons per thruster
Very High agility: 90,000 tons per thruster
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If we're waiting on another generation of technology anyway I'd say we leave the heavyweight for when that is ready (or at least available).
- Location
- SEAsia
- Pronouns
- Thou
Are we looking at a possible war in the near future? Would probs determine what we might need soon.
..."Scourge" is a bit over the top, wouldn't you say?
Our enemies watching our Dreadnought do a cartwheel.
Heavy references the Kea, which was a 255,000 ton science cruiser.
So think in that general 250ish range, or somewhat beyond it.
I am not comfortable guessing about midweight.
joe6168
Just a humble lurker
- Location
- Michigan, The lower left glove
So who wants to re-use the Saga's saucer again?!
I'm only half joking here. The simple fact is that Sagarmatha remains the largest ship we've designed to date (even if it's not as big as some of the Vulcan explorers) and could make a good foundation, and we'll probably want to look for at least some cost savings like we did with the Kea if we decide to go that direction.
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
By not designing a better equivalent, you might just be handing SanFran the chance to make the Miranda.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Hmm. A 240,000 ton ship could get High agility with 2 thrusters. The next best breakpoint would be 270,000 tons and 3 thrusters for very high agility.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
So who wants to re-use the Saga's saucer again?!
I'm only half joking here. The simple fact is that Sagarmatha remains the largest ship we've designed to date (even if it's not as big as some of the Vulcan explorers) and could make a good foundation, and we'll probably want to look for at least some cost savings like we did with the Kea if we decide to go that direction.
We can't, we've moved to duratanium hulls now.
- Location
- Earth
Hard to guess what mid-weight means. Did you know that the canon Miranda-class has about the same volume as the canon Constitution-class? The thicker saucer entirely caught up in the volume count despite not having an engineering hull.
People view the canon Miranda-class as tiny or mid weight, but it only got it's tiny/mid size reputation being used a century later with massive behemoth ships like Galaxies. It should still be a decent weight class for this era.
People view the canon Miranda-class as tiny or mid weight, but it only got it's tiny/mid size reputation being used a century later with massive behemoth ships like Galaxies. It should still be a decent weight class for this era.
LunaMoth
Wings of Kynareth is my comfort song...
- Pronouns
- He/They
I think we should stick our hands into the Miranda and see what we can do with it, mostly because we know the design is Starfleets baby in canon, they love the thing.
Noteable breakpoints -
360,000 tons -medium maneuverability at 2 thrusters while just about maxing out what current generation shields can produce defensively. This is the HUGE BOI with BIG SHIELDS.
270,000 tons - very high maneuverability with 3 thrusters. High cost, high value.
240,000 tons - high maneuverability with 2 thrusters. This is the budget cost that is 80% as capable as the 270,000 to size for like 70% the cost.
I of course vote for 360,000 tons of a single primary saucer with no secondary hull.