Starfleet Design Bureau

That is a pretty low amount of frigates, and also a lot of really old frigates.

Is the ratio of engineering ships to combat ships normal?

I've labeled the ships according to their primary function, regardless of their actual tactical ability. You've built very few ships meant to be warships first.

This is good to know, can't wait to see the numbers balloon up by the late 23rd/early 24th century.

Also, what would you say the ratio of Starfleet ships is to those of the member navies (that are available for more than just systems defence)?

I think member navies are beginning to seriously atrophy at this point in terms of external power projection.
 
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Starfleet became the main provider of ships while founding member fleets were kept as homeguard fleets. Although they likely only ever kept them up to date with current technology.
 
United Federation of Planets Starfleet [2240]
Size: 150 Starships

10 Explorers
10 Sagarmatha-class [2175]
Sagarmatha, Kilimanjaro, Olympus, Duji, Denali, Vesuvius, Elbrus, Toubkal, Aoraki, and Sinai.

28 Tactical Cruisers
12 Excalibur-class [2234]
Excalibur, Enterprise, Curtana, Durandal, Tizona, Caladbolg, Joyeuse, Kusanagi, Clarent, Hauteclere, Tryfing, and Hrunting.
16 Saladin-class [2212]
Saladin, Hamilcar, Hannibal, Kublai, Temujin, Lysander, Darius, Xerxes, Lionheart, Seljuk, Tamerlane, Cyrus, Atilla, Thutmose, Bonaparte, and Charlemagne.

78 Engineering Cruisers
4 Radiant-class [2225]
Radiant +3 Others
30 Newton-class [2225]
Newton +29 Others
22 Archer-class [2225]
Archer, Whitworth, Gresley, Stephenson, +18 Others
22 Cygnus-class [2167]
Cygnus, Peregrine, Kingfisher, Osprey, Goshawk, Flamingo, Dipper, Grebe, Loon, Stork, Openbill, Adjutant, Heron, Bittern, Pelican, Shoebill, Ibis, Spoonbill, Hamerkop, Auk, Penguin, and Petrel.

9 Science Cruisers
9 Kea-class [2211] [Refit 2240]
Kea, Kakapo, Cockatiel, Macaw, Parrot, Parakeet, Rosella, Iory, and Corella.

25 Frigates
25 Selachii-class [2190] [Refit 2225]
Tiger, Hammerhead +23 Others
78 Engineering Cruisers. More than half of Starfleet is logistics ships. Given that an additional 9 are science cruisers and 25 of the remainder are frigates, either the Klingons don't actually have that big of a fleet or they aren't willing to commit much of their fleet to the war.

Definitely feeling a dearth of teeth.
 
Another idea is that they thought they were gonna wipe out starfleet and then the Excalibur happened and they were blindsided by it.
 
78 Engineering Cruisers. More than half of Starfleet is logistics ships. Given that an additional 9 are science cruisers and 25 of the remainder are frigates, either the Klingons don't actually have that big of a fleet or they aren't willing to commit much of their fleet to the war.

Definitely feeling a dearth of teeth.
No that's about right compared to most navies. To this day a substantial portion of the USN is support vessels of one stripe or another.
 
Another idea is that they thought they were gonna wipe out starfleet and then the Excalibur happened and they were blindsided by it.

Well a few battle groups of D7s being absolutely wasted and then the sensor data of one getting guillotined probably made an impression.

No that's about right compared to most navies. To this day a substantial portion of the USN is support vessels of one stripe or another.
Wrist to the fist and all that
 
The size of fleets actually seen in the shows is really small until DS9, and even then massive fleet engagements are like... less than 100 ships total. We're fine, please do not doom.
 
The Cygnus class is extremely old, maybe our next design should be for a replacement? Same size, moderate cargo capacity, super-cruise nacelles? I mean, it can't even sprint warp 7, it predates biological-rated transporters being standard, and it masses 270,000 tons. Pretty chonky, and pretty inefficient in the modern age.

Edit: I'm thinking something with vertical super-cruise nacelles, aim for warp 6.6 efficient cruise (covers a lot of territory over time), standard warp 8 drive with all the trimmings, at least 2 fore torpedo launchers, aft launchers/rapid-fire launchers optional, at least 3 cargo carrying capacity, some additional range, and obviously better phasers than the Cygnus-class.

Edit cont: Optionally also mount a general science lab maybe, maybe also astrometrics and biology if we have the room? Makes a decent utility cruiser that has entry-level in everything to deal with stuff as it arises within Federation space. Also again, bulks out our fleet, makes us less vulnerable and a less enticing target to our neighbours, hopefully deter wars and other conflicts by proliferating sufficient martial prowess. Once our peers see the Excalibur, they know we can make decent warships. If encounters with science ships, utility cruisers etc yield similar results they'll know our whole fleet is a very tough and indigestible meal.

We could totally do a stronger design, maybe even on a considerably lesser budget.
 
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The Cygnus class is extremely old, maybe our next design should be for a replacement? Same size, moderate cargo capacity, super-cruise nacelles? I mean, it can't even sprint warp 7, it predates biological-rated transporters being standard, and it masses 270,000 tons. Pretty chonky, and pretty inefficient in the modern age.

We could totally do a stronger design, maybe even on a considerably lesser budget.

The Archer-class was the replacement. Our Warp 8 Core wasn't online then.
 
The battle of Wolf 359 in TNG was 40 starships, and they were scraping the barrel, putting several ~100 year old Mirandas into the fight. Our Miranda equivalent would either be the ship we are working on now, or our next ship, assuming it's a Cygnus replacement. Though the Newtons and Archers are pretty recent; so our next ship may end up being a replacement for the Sagarmatha / our version of the Excelsior.

So it's obvious that the Darwin should have two or three forward facing RFLs and one or two rearward RFLs, if it's going to have to throw down with the Borg in a hundred years time... :D
 
The Archer-class was the replacement. Our Warp 8 Core wasn't online then.
Was it? I disagree. The Archer-class was a dedicated bulk transport and supply ship, the Cygnus-class was a utility cruiser with, what, 3 points of cargo? There's overlap, but the Cygnus-class was for general duties, the Archer-class was logistic support all the way. It was almost weaker than the venerable Cygnus-class in combat, and it's ~50 years less advanced.
 
Was it? I disagree. The Archer-class was a dedicated bulk transport and supply ship, the Cygnus-class was a utility cruiser with, what, 3 points of cargo? There's overlap, but the Cygnus-class was for general duties, the Archer-class was logistic support all the way. It was almost weaker than the venerable Cygnus-class in combat, and it's ~50 years less advanced.
I mean, if the Archer isn't what you're counting, then the Newton is, because what you're describing is basically the Newton, AFAIK. Only thing it's missing is Warp 8 capability.
 
Id love to revisit the defense satellite project or do a Diplomatic crusier. We're going to be entering a cold war with the Klingons, having a ship designed around winning the hearts and minds of unaligned powers before the Klingons would be great.
 
I mean, if the Archer isn't what you're counting, then the Newton is, because what you're describing is basically the Newton, AFAIK. Only thing it's missing is Warp 8 capability.
Cheers, completely forgot that Sanfran made a ship alongside the Archer-class. Ah well, in that case then yeah we don't have a burning need for a utility cruiser.

I wonder what gaps exactly we do have in our fleet? A general science ship, maybe? A long-range science/explorer, once we've got v4 nacelles could be pretty awesome, limited production run, expensive but very capable? Hmm.
 
The ship number seemed fine to me. It's the refit incompatibility that's really killing us.

We have lots of Newtons, Excalibers, Saladins , and shark frigates. Kea and the Everest class will do decently as well.
 
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The ship number seemed fine to me. It's the refit incompatibility that's really killing us.
We have lots of Newtons, Excalibers, Saladin-class, and shark frigates. Kea and the Everest class will do decently as well.
That being said, wasn't the warp 9 drive backwards-compatible with our ships? Peer threat forces are gonna kinda be getting a nasty surprise because our fleet numbers and strength are really gonna swell over the next few decades. Hopefully we've managed to beat the hump, now we're cycling downhill for a bit.
 
The battle of Wolf 359 in TNG was 40 starships, and they were scraping the barrel, putting several ~100 year old Mirandas into the fight.
Assuming we go by STOs manifest (in terms of classes if not individual ships, given some small continuity errors like Republic being involved) to properly fill things out*, a Georgiou-class starship (USS Garret) fought at Wolf 359 - and it's a TMP era rebuild/variant of a 2221 design (the Walker-class).

*Since it's probably the closest we're ever going to get to a fully fleshed out manifest of the ships (and their classes) involved in the battle.
 
That being said, wasn't the warp 9 drive backwards-compatible with our ships? Peer threat forces are gonna kinda be getting a nasty surprise because our fleet numbers and strength are really gonna swell over the next few decades. Hopefully we've managed to beat the hump, now we're cycling downhill for a bit.

Assuming we don't take too many options and make the Warp 9 core incompatible yes we jumped way ahead on having vertical cores.
 
The battle of Wolf 359 in TNG was 40 starships, and they were scraping the barrel, putting several ~100 year old Mirandas into the fight. Our Miranda equivalent would either be the ship we are working on now, or our next ship, assuming it's a Cygnus replacement. Though the Newtons and Archers are pretty recent; so our next ship may end up being a replacement for the Sagarmatha / our version of the Excelsior.

So it's obvious that the Darwin should have two or three forward facing RFLs and one or two rearward RFLs, if it's going to have to throw down with the Borg in a hundred years time... :D

Yeah, and Wolf 359 was the biggest onscreen display of ships ever up to that point. So again, 150 ships in the fleet is fine.
 
Yeah, and Wolf 359 was the biggest onscreen display of ships ever up to that point. So again, 150 ships in the fleet is fine.
Eh, not entirely. Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.

Assuming our core of 150ly is spherical* (and I've done the maths right) core Federation space is ~14,137,166.94 cubic light years, a fleet of 150 starships means 94,247.78ly3 between each ship on average - with a ~7,500 strong fleet (as DIS gives, iirc) that number shrinks rather massively to 1,884.96ly3 per starship.

*Which is reasonable given the average disc thickness where we are is 1,000ly.

Wolf 359 likely represented ships dedicated to missions in the 'core' of Federation space and hastily commissioned ships at the various yards there. I wouldn't call it representative of fleet size.
 
MSD: Saladin-class New
Ladies, gentlemen, distinguished nonbinary persons, I present: the Saladin!



Yes I'm aware the Franz Joseph one had the deflector out on a little strut, but A) that's dumb and B) @Sayle's deflectors are a lot chunkier than just a dish.

This is based pretty heavily on the brief given in the Kea retrospective - Sagarmatha hull with no secondary section and one nacelle, 3 phasers (2 dorsal, 1 ventral, all forward/side and no rear coverage) forward torpedo bays, general science lab and dilithium lab (only 2 modules mentioned) - and the technical stats, which specified a monotronic core and shuttlebay. And let me tell you, the shuttles required me to reshuffle the whole deck plan once I noticed.
 
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Eh, not entirely. Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.

Assuming our core of 150ly is spherical* (and I've done the maths right) core Federation space is ~14,137,166.94 cubic light years, a fleet of 150 starships means 94,247.78ly3 between each ship on average - with a ~7,500 strong fleet (as DIS gives, iirc) that number shrinks rather massively to 1,884.96ly3 per starship.

*Which is reasonable given the average disc thickness where we are is 1,000ly.

Wolf 359 likely represented ships dedicated to missions in the 'core' of Federation space and hastily commissioned ships at the various yards there. I wouldn't call it representative of fleet size.

So really 45 light years between ships. Which seems a little on the big side. Are we sure Fed space is 150 ly across?
 
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