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I'm not arguing, I was raising some concerns about strategic mobility and received a series of lectures about sprint speeds, which I never brought up. The issue was, we couldn't implement warp 8 drive in our old ships, hence they weren't updated with better warp reactors, hence their speeds were lower than they would've been. I rather thought that was clear.
That being said, yeah, I forgot the mini warp 8 still does have normal warp 8 cruising speeds. I'm not thrilled about losing the sprint speeds on a cruiser design, but as I've said many times sprint is only really critical in specific tactical scenarios against peer powers. It's not always a deciding factor.
I'm... Hmm, leery of the Miranda-class using the old MKI photorps tbh. I'm worried with us making the Federation-class so expensive we might be delaying the wide-scale implementation of next-gen weapons that I'd love to see proliferated as widely as possible. We always seem to be so depressingly behind in terms of firepower.
Cheers for compiling this. Hmm, not nearly as bad as I thought, I forgot we updated our phasers after the Archer-class, didn't we? Just come out of a multi-day fever so my facts and recent memories may be disordered.
I'm still a little worried about the low burst damage. No, I'm not gnawing a bone, I'm raising a point I feel we should be aware of as we work through new designs.
Also the thing with the large warp core is that it raises the cruising speed so drastically that for a small price increase, you're vastly decreasing the travel times for the ship.
I already knew about the larger core necessitating a larger hull. What I'm suggesting is we build a starship with a large warp core, 2x nacelles optimized for cruise, 1 (or 2 at most) impulse drives if we can swing it, light shields and maxed out size. Either type 2 or type 5 phasers, but stick with 6 banks. Torpedoes, 2xMK4 fore and aft. With the superabundance of modules it'd be a veritable swiss army knife. The light shields and goign easy on impulse drives make it vastly more economical, the size compensates for the light shielding, the firepower makes it terrifying especially if there are more than 1 fighting at once, and it'd be cheaper than the monstrosity that is the Federation-class.
Edit: I'm still feeling a little weak, but it seems like a ~360kton ship with light covariant shielding would have something in the order of ~55 shield points, that gives it a significant edge over the Excalibur-class' 36 points. While the Excalibur-class certainly wasn't a tank of a ship, it was no slouch either. That seems more than tanky enough to operate solo and soak up quite a bit of fire in a fleet formation, especially if it's slinging MK4 torpedoes fore and aft (equivalent to a shotgun spread of 4 MKIs from both ends each time) and firing phasers more often than not. If I have a little more energy later I'll try and calculate the expected end-to-end cost for such a vessel.
For specific modules, I'd suggest such a design could make an excellent general science cruiser to replace the Kea-class.
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Well the quest is still thoroughly in the Shower Thoughts(TM) update phase for the moment, because I've mentally stalled on the modules with the realisation that there's an inevitable point where you can just fit Everything, and been sort of mulling over what other possibilities for internal space are. Also I got really into Vintage Story, which is surprisingly refreshing as a co-op game. Medical treatment will be kicking back into progress after Christmas in a couple of weeks, so hopefully that will counteract some of the energy drain. Just gotta get to the nacelle/general stat rework that requires careful deliberation rather than artistic creativity. Though in complete honesty part of it is just getting off my ass and doing the update.
As thoughts so far go:
Crew Quarters. You've got crew sharings bunks by shift rota, individual bunks, personal bedrooms, working quarters (desk+bed+a bit of space) and then the living quarters you see later in the timeline. More comfortable crews mean less space left over for other stuff.
Escape Pods. Currently Starfleet seems to be using shuttles or evacuation pods like mini-shuttles rather than the later classical escape pods. My personal reading is that starships become more durable and the chances of abandoning ship being 'evacuating under fire in under X minutes' goes up enough to have a distributed and self-sufficient escape system look like a useful addition. Also a neat thing to put on the exterior to add some flavor, though I think the earliest ship we see with the hatch-based pods seems to be the Ambassador-class.
The other thought I had was that the current system works for the smaller ships where you absolutely can't fit Everything and getting to a maximum specialisation in something requires ditching basically everything else. So stuff the size of the Attenborough, essentially. My thinking was that in future ships maybe something like a module system where you get to install systems that would distinguish or accentuate a starship's role at the cost of refocusing the current auxiliary modules to a smaller, more precisely selected range. "You have space, do you want the medical facilities to be more focused on research and analysis, or emergency medicine?" for the current system, while a starship module might represent larger departures from the norm. So the Miranda refits might get a slot for their heavy rollbar phasers, the Nebula would have one for their modular mission system, the Attenborough's landing system could have been one. Saucer separation. Quad nacelles for increased cruise. Stuff that diverges from the classical everyman starship design and begins to really sketch out what the ship is designed to do really well before you get to stuffing the innards of the pinata with subsystems.
Really the issue with the module system isn't just more empty space to fill, it's also that on a personal level I find it annoying that these spaces would also be expanding volumetrically. But point inflation based on that would I feel like give the wrong impressions about massively ballooning capability, so I suspect this might become a case of hidden gut-instinct adjusted numbers on the backend purely to produce a comparative grade. Basically the current system, just where I can pretend "this ship has 10x more lab space but only has the same amount of points" isn't actually an issue.
Thoughts for the future, given that some sort of writeup/revamp is inevitable for TMP.
Other things I'd like to do. A visual engagement chart representing what classes of ship can be relied upon to fight. Maybe expressed in damage ranges, with the Federation providing 39 damage in the under 150kt category and 56 above. Get some damage curves in there with artistic liberty that would maybe make you think "hey we don't actually have anything that really effectively engages ships under 80kt" or something. Obviously a more side project/inspiration strikes thing, maybe one that only needs doing when a major conflict is anticipated.
Obviously the TMP UI still needs doing, as I only have the cosmetic console element done so far. I'm committed to ditching the rear view in favour of a full-color sideview, but I'm much more leery of a resolution increase. As ships get bigger you kind of get to do more granular detail in hull texturing anyway. The half-meter windows on the rim of the Federation Project look fine, not that I think most people care.
Then there's the stat rework in general. Distinguish how torpedoes give you warp offense/defense. Give maximum cruise a strategic range stat for wartime vs operating range for efficient cruise/peacetime. Likewise give maximum warp some stat that represents the power of decision it provides tactically and postnote some ship classes it exceeds. Free Engagement, maybe?
As for more granular stuff, I considered a Federation map but it really runs into that the showrunners of TNG didn't care that much so a lot of stuff just doesn't make sense, so best not. The same sort of gut feeling applied to a sort of Federation statblock in that my idea of reasonable growth won't get to 8000 light years of Federation in 100 years, so. You're the people providing the toolkit, not making the decisions. I also don't want the only impact you feel being the wars. I mean, it's true that they're obvious inflection points, that's true of history as well as fiction. But I liked the shift that happened quite naturally with the focus on logistics over expansion.
Anyhow, that's my ramble. Feel free to disregard or comment as you like. It's all very amorphous right now and hasn't even really touched on the costing system that makes large ships objectively better. Tying more costs to mass seems like the way forward, but I'm not clear on what parts should be left alone until I take a good look at that and have a good think.
As thoughts so far go:
Crew Quarters. You've got crew sharings bunks by shift rota, individual bunks, personal bedrooms, working quarters (desk+bed+a bit of space) and then the living quarters you see later in the timeline. More comfortable crews mean less space left over for other stuff.
Escape Pods. Currently Starfleet seems to be using shuttles or evacuation pods like mini-shuttles rather than the later classical escape pods. My personal reading is that starships become more durable and the chances of abandoning ship being 'evacuating under fire in under X minutes' goes up enough to have a distributed and self-sufficient escape system look like a useful addition. Also a neat thing to put on the exterior to add some flavor, though I think the earliest ship we see with the hatch-based pods seems to be the Ambassador-class.
The other thought I had was that the current system works for the smaller ships where you absolutely can't fit Everything and getting to a maximum specialisation in something requires ditching basically everything else. So stuff the size of the Attenborough, essentially. My thinking was that in future ships maybe something like a module system where you get to install systems that would distinguish or accentuate a starship's role at the cost of refocusing the current auxiliary modules to a smaller, more precisely selected range. "You have space, do you want the medical facilities to be more focused on research and analysis, or emergency medicine?" for the current system, while a starship module might represent larger departures from the norm. So the Miranda refits might get a slot for their heavy rollbar phasers, the Nebula would have one for their modular mission system, the Attenborough's landing system could have been one. Saucer separation. Quad nacelles for increased cruise. Stuff that diverges from the classical everyman starship design and begins to really sketch out what the ship is designed to do really well before you get to stuffing the innards of the pinata with subsystems.
Really the issue with the module system isn't just more empty space to fill, it's also that on a personal level I find it annoying that these spaces would also be expanding volumetrically. But point inflation based on that would I feel like give the wrong impressions about massively ballooning capability, so I suspect this might become a case of hidden gut-instinct adjusted numbers on the backend purely to produce a comparative grade. Basically the current system, just where I can pretend "this ship has 10x more lab space but only has the same amount of points" isn't actually an issue.
Thoughts for the future, given that some sort of writeup/revamp is inevitable for TMP.
Other things I'd like to do. A visual engagement chart representing what classes of ship can be relied upon to fight. Maybe expressed in damage ranges, with the Federation providing 39 damage in the under 150kt category and 56 above. Get some damage curves in there with artistic liberty that would maybe make you think "hey we don't actually have anything that really effectively engages ships under 80kt" or something. Obviously a more side project/inspiration strikes thing, maybe one that only needs doing when a major conflict is anticipated.
Obviously the TMP UI still needs doing, as I only have the cosmetic console element done so far. I'm committed to ditching the rear view in favour of a full-color sideview, but I'm much more leery of a resolution increase. As ships get bigger you kind of get to do more granular detail in hull texturing anyway. The half-meter windows on the rim of the Federation Project look fine, not that I think most people care.
Then there's the stat rework in general. Distinguish how torpedoes give you warp offense/defense. Give maximum cruise a strategic range stat for wartime vs operating range for efficient cruise/peacetime. Likewise give maximum warp some stat that represents the power of decision it provides tactically and postnote some ship classes it exceeds. Free Engagement, maybe?
As for more granular stuff, I considered a Federation map but it really runs into that the showrunners of TNG didn't care that much so a lot of stuff just doesn't make sense, so best not. The same sort of gut feeling applied to a sort of Federation statblock in that my idea of reasonable growth won't get to 8000 light years of Federation in 100 years, so. You're the people providing the toolkit, not making the decisions. I also don't want the only impact you feel being the wars. I mean, it's true that they're obvious inflection points, that's true of history as well as fiction. But I liked the shift that happened quite naturally with the focus on logistics over expansion.
Anyhow, that's my ramble. Feel free to disregard or comment as you like. It's all very amorphous right now and hasn't even really touched on the costing system that makes large ships objectively better. Tying more costs to mass seems like the way forward, but I'm not clear on what parts should be left alone until I take a good look at that and have a good think.
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NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
It feels reasonable to shift to a system of 'it has all the basic modules, what do you want to specialise in?' system for larger ships. Either that, or give us the option to go completely 100% all in on a particular area (multiple redundant science labs/engineering labs/sensor systems/whatever) at the cost of being incapable in others.
- Location
- Dragyxx
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This probably would be a good point to go 'Alright, your ship comes with the basic expanded workshop and science lab already installed, because they were obvious. Now, what specialties and specific large items do you want?' Only have the players specifically choose the 'Major' modules, and just set a general focus for some of the rest such that they can just say 'science-focus' or 'engineering-focus' or 'just fill it all with cargo bays'.
Other ideas for large, space-filling modules:
We've discussed putting in a full diplomatic suite (VIP cabins, lounges, meeting rooms, special rooms for species with unusual environmental needs), this would take a lot of space total.
Could put in a Flag Bridge, similar but optimized for admirals.
WHALES. Put in a full set of living quarters and duty stations for aquatic lifeforms. Water-breathing sapients can be Federation Fleet members too! I do believe it is canonical that various cetacean species got uplifted.
TREES. Why do we need trees? Why not!
In general, you might start giving us 'sets' of modules instead of individual modules. Instead of installing just an arboretum or just a biology lab, have 'biosciences suite' that contains lab space for various plant and animal related tasks, including an arboretum and an animal observation chamber. Instead of just a workshop, have a 'fleet support section' that contains various engineering spaces dedicated to ship repair, cargo space for spare parts, and a couple extra workerbees. Etc.
Can also redefine Science and Engineering points as being relative, I.E. change the score to be a F-S scale like some of the others instead of fixed values, in saying that they ship is this good at the role for its mass.
Other ideas for large, space-filling modules:
We've discussed putting in a full diplomatic suite (VIP cabins, lounges, meeting rooms, special rooms for species with unusual environmental needs), this would take a lot of space total.
Could put in a Flag Bridge, similar but optimized for admirals.
WHALES. Put in a full set of living quarters and duty stations for aquatic lifeforms. Water-breathing sapients can be Federation Fleet members too! I do believe it is canonical that various cetacean species got uplifted.
TREES. Why do we need trees? Why not!
In general, you might start giving us 'sets' of modules instead of individual modules. Instead of installing just an arboretum or just a biology lab, have 'biosciences suite' that contains lab space for various plant and animal related tasks, including an arboretum and an animal observation chamber. Instead of just a workshop, have a 'fleet support section' that contains various engineering spaces dedicated to ship repair, cargo space for spare parts, and a couple extra workerbees. Etc.
Can also redefine Science and Engineering points as being relative, I.E. change the score to be a F-S scale like some of the others instead of fixed values, in saying that they ship is this good at the role for its mass.
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I more or less agree with this, past a certain size it just doesn't make sense for Starfleet to accept a ship that can't cover all of the basics by default to some extent, and having the ability to shape the specialisation will let us still have a role to play without the incongruity of Starfleet letting a ship go out without capability in an area.
- Location
- USA
Every ship I've served on (in the US Navy), the enlisted lived in spaces filled with bunks that held 2 or 3 beds. There were enough of these bunks for every enlisted to have their own bed to sleep in. My first ship also had an overflow space for extra personnel, such as officers. Said overflow space was smaller than any of the individual enlisted specific sleeping spaces. Most officers shared a space with 1 or 2 other officers or civilian Contractors. Some personnel got to not share their sleeping space with any one else, usually the higher officers.
But this is happening on ships where space is at a premium. By this time in this quest, Starfleet should be building ships with a lot more available space for crew living spaces. Probably not yet at individuals rooms just yet, but 3 person living spaces sound like a possibility.
But this is happening on ships where space is at a premium. By this time in this quest, Starfleet should be building ships with a lot more available space for crew living spaces. Probably not yet at individuals rooms just yet, but 3 person living spaces sound like a possibility.
LunaMoth
Wings of Kynareth is my comfort song...
- Pronouns
- He/They
Perhaps, leave the modules up to chance, write down a bunch of module ideas you like the sound of, number them- then consult the RNG for which ones to include. That would help with being stuck, maybe.
Another thing could be re-framing what the modules are, if part of the issue is that there is an inevitable point where 'everything can just be shoved into the ship'. Then maybe the module we pick isn't so much what's included in the ship, but rather what modules are being over-focused on. Like designers are going to have biases right, perhaps they spent too much time designing an upgrade to some fabrication workshop and now the in-universe designers feel like they must include it even if it doesn't fit the ships profile to a T or makes other areas of the ship worse due to attention going to the fabrication workshop.
TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
Indeed, it could also be that senior admirals have requested/ordered specific things due to their own preferences
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
We see some enlisted quarters in Star Trek 6, and there's a fair few people to each one. Don't remember the exact numbers, but it's definitely not individual.
Makes sense that past a certain size you'd have a bit of everything. I suppose then your choices become stuff like:
-Full industrial replicator and parts assembly area +10 to engineering +industrial replication +can fabricate basic new systems and shuttles independently
-Full hospital complex, 20 operating theatres, 250 beds +10 to medical +bio-chemistry +basic pharmacology
-Large general science complex with dedicated auxiliary computer core +15 to general science +extra computation
-Large rare materials prospecting and sensing suite +8 to general science +basic geology +basic geophysics +can prospect for Dilithium, Tritanium, Duranium, Parsteel and other rare materials
Your ship necessarily has rather nice, redundant workshops, but a full industrial replicator makes repairs a lot faster and gives you the ability to feed damaged hull plating through and print off new plates. You know you've got a bigger sickbay, but a full hospital complex gives you a lot of extra frills.
-Full industrial replicator and parts assembly area +10 to engineering +industrial replication +can fabricate basic new systems and shuttles independently
-Full hospital complex, 20 operating theatres, 250 beds +10 to medical +bio-chemistry +basic pharmacology
-Large general science complex with dedicated auxiliary computer core +15 to general science +extra computation
-Large rare materials prospecting and sensing suite +8 to general science +basic geology +basic geophysics +can prospect for Dilithium, Tritanium, Duranium, Parsteel and other rare materials
Your ship necessarily has rather nice, redundant workshops, but a full industrial replicator makes repairs a lot faster and gives you the ability to feed damaged hull plating through and print off new plates. You know you've got a bigger sickbay, but a full hospital complex gives you a lot of extra frills.
Here's the ones on the Excelsior, couldn't find the ones on the A but they're similar.
So something like 3 high and 3 wide per room, probably double that up for the other side and potentially one more for the other unoccupied face and you get 27 enlisted per room. They've got more headspace than on modern American ships, and judging by the books and everything they've got decent space for personal effects.
And to compare, a 6 berth junior enlisted quarters on the Queen Elizabeth-class.
If it helps, as one goes further in to the future the fuel storage and range of the ships goes up quite a bit. Which presumably will require more in self repair, fuel stores and spare parts storage. And there is an argument to be had that in time the ships will need more ability to handle increasingly more diverse situations as well as the ability to attend to the crew staying in space on a trip for increasingly long periods of time. So more facilities and space for the crew in such a case would also start being needed, as being to cramped up all the time will make it hard to get optimal performance out of everyone.
So there are a variety of things that will eat up some space due to that I guess.
So there are a variety of things that will eat up some space due to that I guess.
For larger ships I like what the current systems is evolving towards. Move away from discrete modules and just have ~3 votes to let us customize the configuration of the systems. Then have a single unique part vote with a few options to give the ship class something unique; like roll-bar, neck flight deck, ablative armor, saucer sensor pods, extra-large landing craft, container towing, etc.
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- Location
- USA
Also let's not forget, while the average size of ships does go up as we get into the TNG era, Starfleet still designs and uses smaller vessels. Even for non-tactical roles with ships like the Nova Class.
Once ships get beyond a certain size, the size bracket of warp core would probably count as 1 size below. So a nova-class could use a small core and it'd be a small warp core, a Galaxy-class would use a medium as a small, a large as a medium and would need an extra-large to operate as large. Another way of making small ships cost less, as extra-large should probably cost more than 16 (4, 8, 12 cost) but maybe like, 25?
You pay for the versatility, and while the ship might be blazing fast and a swiss army knife, it can't be everywhere at once, so you need small survey ships, transports etc for small stuff because you can't build enough big ones to be everywhere.
You pay for the versatility, and while the ship might be blazing fast and a swiss army knife, it can't be everywhere at once, so you need small survey ships, transports etc for small stuff because you can't build enough big ones to be everywhere.
My idea for modules on BEEG ships would honestly be what Sayle did for the Federation, but expanded a bit.
As several people have said, we have the basics like labs, medical, and crew morale stuff.
We get one or two votes for particularly big things like the Cargo and Refueling thing the Federation has, and then instead of voting for particular modules we borrow from the last vote and simply vote for the specialization that will operate similar to a 'package' of modules and give us a variety of scores and areas this ship does well in.
As several people have said, we have the basics like labs, medical, and crew morale stuff.
We get one or two votes for particularly big things like the Cargo and Refueling thing the Federation has, and then instead of voting for particular modules we borrow from the last vote and simply vote for the specialization that will operate similar to a 'package' of modules and give us a variety of scores and areas this ship does well in.
This seems an excellent idea.
The only thing I would add, and this is one Sayle might rightfully point out doesn't actually work in practice, but it would be good if we could know how many and what sort of modules we're going to get. We kinda go in blind and it's hard to have a coherent plan
Like, "Be default you'll have 1 standard module in the saucer and 1 in the engineering hull. Go for a full saucer and you get 1 extra saucer module to play with. Go for the enlarged saucer, you get 3 saucer modules.
Saucer modules include labs, expanded quarters and recreation facilities and enlarged computer cores. Secondary modules include enhanced workshops, fuel storage, expanded shuttlebay or workbee complement.
The secondary hull by default assumes smallest size, your choice will be a full-size deflector solution, or a full module. Alternatively go for the medium secondary hull for 2 modules, or you can go experimental and go for a large secondary hull, that opens up a 3rd module, but because of your large cross-section you either need to pay a little extra for a non-standard deflector configuration, or choose to make a diceroll for an experimental configuration that won't cost more, but may result in a -0.1 to sprint and efficient cruise for the first 5 years of the class' service life.
The design assumes you can have 1x MK4 fore and aft torpedo launcher "free", you can double up on either axis but it'll weaken 1 module either in the saucer or secondary hull, depending on your choice, by -4 from a strength of +6. You can also triple up, but that'll mean outright losing a module in that area of the ship.
You can have 1 impulse drive "free" but if you go for a 2nd to max out agility it'll reduce the strength of 1 saucer module by -2 from a strength of +6, unless you want to pay an extra 3 cost to bulk out the back of the saucer."
Obviously it'd be written out with normal text boxes like we usually use for voting.
That way our choices and consequences are obvious; we could build a small, extremely lethal and lean battle frigate and know what the minimum size for maximum combat utility is. We could make it a bit bigger, give it extra fuel tanks, or make it more like a full patrol cruiser and make it bigger, shill out for extra workbees, fuel tanks and crew accommodations, and while we're at it add an extra-large sickbay and high-end general scanners to help it spot trouble in our territory.
We mould the ship's costs, size and capabilities, both tactical, utility and specialist to whatever we want and know the inner and outer limits of our choices from the start.
Thoughts?
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TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
This is a well thought out way to do it. No longer doing each vote as they happen, we'd have an idea of what we could do.
- Location
- Australia
Part of the problem is that it requires Sayle to basically sketch out each possibility and fill it with gear to see how much space is left, and then it could be ruined by us throwing in an inline deflector or something anyway.
Though if we pick an option for the future that abstracts away most modules and is more about picking specialist gear, it might work if it only has to be a general size per specialist choice rather than an exact amount.
Though if we pick an option for the future that abstracts away most modules and is more about picking specialist gear, it might work if it only has to be a general size per specialist choice rather than an exact amount.
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Exactly. It might be difficult, and it might also make it un-fun.
- Location
- Springfield, Illinois
Another option could be that we get sizes for the floor plan and the size of the modules and we can be the ones to hmm and ah about which module will fit where, and if there is any space remaining it just becomes cargo kinda like what another quest did Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish) Sci-Fi
Might be a bit to nitty gritty tho
Might be a bit to nitty gritty tho
TheOmnimercurial
Dragon Bard
- Location
- UK
[X] Support (Cargo, Fabrication, Repair)
Answer the phone.