Starfleet Design Bureau

Let's just say that at that point, anything that can facetank a 7-9 torp alpha strike without being crippled or outright destroyed is something we've no business throwing hands with.
Technology doesnt stand still.
Better shields, better ECM, improved agility, better armor.
Any and all of those could well mitigate the damage of torpedo strikes.

But yeah, any single mobile construct that can eat that sort of salvo is probably for a fleet to handle.
 
Closest I can think of is the Negh'Var, which is the largest ship we ever see prime Klingons operate (and also designed with anti-station operations in mind) and that's a century and some change away.

The K't'inga is probably gonna be a lot beefier than it was historically, however.
Yeah, the Klingons got spanked by the Excalibur. And while the armchair generals will go on about how Duras 'betrayed them' and lost them the war no one is going to argue that the Eighteen Swords weren't a glorious and deadly enemy.

They're going to build a new ship to beat the Excalibur, and we need an answer ready.
 
Yeah, the Klingons got spanked by the Excalibur. And while the armchair generals will go on about how Duras 'betrayed them' and lost them the war no one is going to argue that the Eighteen Swords weren't a glorious and deadly enemy.

They're going to build a new ship to beat the Excalibur, and we need an answer ready.
With that in mind... if you were making a ship to counter the Excalibur or other similar ships, how would you do it?
 
With that in mind... if you were making a ship to counter the Excalibur or other similar ships, how would you do it?
Good question. Twofold approach I think.

First, essentially what General Chang did for his own Bird of Prey - invest research and Romulan diplomacy until we can get ahead of the sensor curve on cloaking technology again, and fire while cloaked. A major strategic asset of the Klingons is their willingness to do chaos raiding with lots of light ships, forcing their enemies to spread themselves too thin trying to defend everywhere at once. A Chang BOP can do stealth escorts behind enemy lines, engage Excaliburs in one sided duels, and leave the fight if it turns against them. In a fleet battle they can also do undetectable strafing runs to support other fleet elements.

Second, essentially what we're building now - a heavy tank that can survive your dps long enough to land solid shots on a lighter, faster opponent. A Klingon sensibility means heavy forward and rear weapons, but add on disruptors to keep up constant pressure.

edit: Group them up. So a tank that can take Excalibur fire for a bit while 2-3 cloaked Birds of Prey take invisible pot shots at the Excalibur, who can't effectively split its attention to respond. Keeps it to 'cruiser and escorts vs cruiser' rather than two to one odds, or three to one if the Fed captain is having a really good day.
 
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Design Concept ComparisonHullShieldsEnginesPhasersTorpedoesTotal
360kt w/Heavy ShieldsDurataniumHeavy Covariant2 Type-3 Thrusters8 Type-2 Banks2 RFL + 2 Standard
Price10.8(?)60.12103628.5145.42
Effectiveness77.4(?) Hull Points90 Shield PointsMedium Maneuverability23.4(?) Sustained108 Burst Fore + 36 Burst Aft
400kt w/ Standard ShieldsDurataniumStandard Covariant3 Type-3 Thrusters8 Type-2 Banks2 RFL + 2 Standard
Price12(?)45.6153628.5137.1
Effectiveness86(?) Hull Points80 Shield PointsMedium or Medium-High(?) Maneuverability27 Sustained108 Burst Fore + 36 Burst Aft
Decided to fully run the numbers comparing 360kt/Heavy Shields with 400kt/Standard Shields designs, assuming identical armament and trying to hit Medium Maneuverability for both. Question marks denote areas where I am not certain about the numbers I reached.

Key takeaways:
  • The 360kt design has 10 more shield points at less than 10 extra cost, but the 400kt design nearly makes up the difference in hull points. I would argue that shield damage is preferable to hull damage, but the raw numbers are closer than I thought they would be.
  • The 400kt design does get substantially more phaser power and will probably have an extra module space or two, which might be traded for more standard launchers in place of the RFLs. Or more RFLs if you're a madlad.
  • The 360kt design hits more cost-efficient Maneuverability breakpoints but still costs around 8 points more overall.
  • Both designs are in the ballpark of 50-60% more expensive than the Excalibur. EDIT: I've realized that I forgot the base price of the warp drive and nacelles, so add a little more to this ballpark.
  • Do we even have existing shipyards that can build either of these?
 
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Do we even have existing shipyards that can build either of these?
We should do, our members are capable of producing 500,000 tonne starships and even if their form is somewhat different from Starfleet ones (Vulcan ships kinda being pencils with rings) the basic spacedock design first seen in TMP and then everywhere else should be fairly capable of tending to most forms. Even if we presently lack the exact size (probably width) ones it shouldn't be too hard to enlarge what's basically a hollow frame.
 
Good question. Twofold approach I think.

First, essentially what General Chang did for his own Bird of Prey - invest research and Romulan diplomacy until we can get ahead of the sensor curve on cloaking technology again, and fire while cloaked. A major strategic asset of the Klingons is their willingness to do chaos raiding with lots of light ships, forcing their enemies to spread themselves too thin trying to defend everywhere at once. A Chang BOP can do stealth escorts behind enemy lines, engage Excaliburs in one sided duels, and leave the fight if it turns against them. In a fleet battle they can also do undetectable strafing runs to support other fleet elements.

Second, essentially what we're building now - a heavy tank that can survive your dps long enough to land solid shots on a lighter, faster opponent. A Klingon sensibility means heavy forward and rear weapons, but add on disruptors to keep up constant pressure.

edit: Group them up. So a tank that can take Excalibur fire for a bit while 2-3 cloaked Birds of Prey take invisible pot shots at the Excalibur, who can't effectively split its attention to respond. Keeps it to 'cruiser and escorts vs cruiser' rather than two to one odds, or three to one if the Fed captain is having a really good day.
So, now the question is: how do we build the Federation to counter those? Sensors we can't do much about and wide-coverage we already have in the design spec to counter the cloak, but aside from sticking all the engines on it is there a good way to let the Federation-class counter a heavy cruiser?
 
Decided to fully run the numbers comparing 360kt/Heavy Shields with 400kt/Standard Shields designs, assuming identical armament and trying to hit Medium Maneuverability for both.
Additional context for these numbers:

The Excalibur has a shield rating of 36. The Kea, whose refit held up pretty well in exactly the role we're trying to fill, has 38.

An Excalibur refitted to Covariant Shielding will have 45.

We don't need more than like 60 or so shield rating for a line cruiser who will last us for a long damned time. Even without refits to whatever new prototype shield is coming up.
 
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good way to let the Federation-class counter a heavy cruiser?
2x forward RFL? Even if the 108 burst isn't too too much greater than the 90 the Excalibur has two rapid firing launches instead of 1+2 slower ones means more flexibility in engagement.

Edit'
We don't need more than like 60 or so shield rating for a line cruiser who will last us for a long damned time.
I'd say we do, if we want her to last for a long time. As the Kea shows strong shields are a good insurance for the future, especially for a ship that's meant to sit and take her licks when it comes to group combat (and outside of that has to probably survive getting hunted like NATO carriers would have by complex Soviet naval and air formations when transiting during/immediately after the outbreak of war).
 
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Couldn't we make the Heavy Shields ship a 400kt ship?

Looking at the cost per shields and thrusters it seems like an expanded main energizer as opposed to an impulse shunt would have been the correct option in terms of cost effectiveness.
 
So, now the question is: how do we build the Federation to counter those? Sensors we can't do much about and wide-coverage we already have in the design spec to counter the cloak, but aside from sticking all the engines on it is there a good way to let the Federation-class counter a heavy cruiser?
Mostly what we are already doing.

Fixed sensor arrays to detect movement of large numbers of cloaked ships towards and into Federation space
High shields so that you can tank surprise attacks without being crippled, and weapons redundancy so that losing some weapons still allows you to continue the engagement.

High weapons coverage so no matter what angle they jump you from, they still eat a gun to the face.
Potentially weapons that can disable cloaking; I know that we've seen torpedos that can do that in some ST episodes.
More Science on our ships in general.
 
So, now the question is: how do we build the Federation to counter those? Sensors we can't do much about and wide-coverage we already have in the design spec to counter the cloak, but aside from sticking all the engines on it is there a good way to let the Federation-class counter a heavy cruiser?
The counter to FWC is light fast phaser spreads along good attack vectors. Shoot till you hit something, then light it up and track it. So basically what we have, but emphasize it strategically. Especially in fleet actions - that means good fleet-coordination communications systems to do that area denial covering fire. Keeping in mind that the Gorn aren't the only ones who understand electronic warfare. This means a dedicated fleet command and EW suite. Be able to use lasers if you have to. Hmm, just like the Gorn...

ANYway, my favorite xenomorph lizard people aside. We also want to be able to land a knockout blow that even a dedicated fleet tank will feel. Lots of focus on the forward photon launchers, much less on the rear. Especially since the Federation Class is designed as a line anchor in fleet battles, so maneuver and pursuit is less of a focus.
 
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So, now the question is: how do we build the Federation to counter those? Sensors we can't do much about and wide-coverage we already have in the design spec to counter the cloak, but aside from sticking all the engines on it is there a good way to let the Federation-class counter a heavy cruiser?
Honestly the Excalibur is a perfectly good counter to a heavy cruiser in pairs. A double salvo of torpedoes kills anything plausible to fight in the first place. The goal for Starfleet should be to have enough of them to pair up.

No, where I expect the Klingons to go to counter the Excalibur is to build an expendable glass cannon ship. Small frame, powerful weapons, passable armor, and a lot of speed. Accept that the Excalibur is going to kill the first one and have ship 2 and 3 able to burst down the Excalibur before it can reload.

The counter to THAT, of course, is a heavy cruiser than can simply tank them.

Klingons - HA, this new ship will be the perfect counter for the Excalibur, with it's...

Federation - HAHA WHALE SHIP!
 
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