Starfleet Design Bureau

[Lohjak]

Starfleet said not going for moar science is ok, not that they didn't want moar science.

The actual requirements just ask for some nebulous requirement of being capable in vital areas of interest without stating what those are.

Considering the fact that the Excaliburs struggled with being an Explorer:

And the Saladin's classification as a science ship was dropped in the 2240's with the Kea losing it's Dilithium-analysis suite there is a clear need for more science ships capable of operating on the Federation's borders given the fact that the Excalibur with it's downright lacking science facilities was pressed into that job.

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There's no way that Starfleet is going to put in a large order for even more science ships. All of their heavy cruisers are already science ships, and they've just bought a couple tranches of small science ships.

A science generalist is probably not going to see many orders.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

There's no way that Starfleet is going to put in a large order for even more science ships. All of their heavy cruisers are already science ships, and they've just bought a couple tranches of small science ships.

A science generalist is probably not going to see many orders.

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I mean, Starfleet likely has an absolute DIRE need for dilithium with all the ships they need to build, and they just finished pulling the Dilithium labs out of their Dilithium survey ships to press them into war ships.

And science labs, dilithium labs, improved sensors, and a oversized shuttlebay make a pretty good generalist on TOP of being a Dilithium survey ships.

 

[uju32]

You have no actual proof that either the D7 or BoP in the passage received any damage before engaging the Joyeuse other than wanting to believe that they didn't while I can clearly quote that the D7's staying out of the fighting till they engaged the Joyeuse.

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Lets not do this

In addition, the BoP that ate two torpedoes is also noted as a bogey (Bogey: (n) an unidentified flying object or radar target.), which suggests that it isn't the BoP that fired at them previously and prior to engaging the Joyeuse likely hadn't taken part in the fighting or it would have already been identified before it's approach like the D7's were rather than being initially marked as an unidentified ship.

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No BoP fired at them previously
But its pretty clearly stated that the BoPs have all been in a brawl with Starfleet's lighter cruisers, with bigger vessels like the Kea to the Joyeuse's starboard taking longrange potshots

Unless you think they have literally danced through that fight without a scratch, they took shield damage in the process
How much I dont know

Two ships with 10 science are rolling twice with +10. A ship with 20 science is rolling once with +20. The former has less variance, but the latter has both a higher floor and ceiling in what it can do.

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The argument about how two ships are better than one just sounds to me like a mildly rehashed variant of Starfleet's prewar doctrine of using light inexpensive cruisers
And that was pretty badly discredited in the war

Not arguing for goldplating, but the hardcap on Starfleet size is strategic mats
We kinda are obliged to get as much capability ino every warp core as we can manage to justify

That pretty much means that Starfleet's going to be well covered from an Engineering requirements perspective.
On the other hand, if we look at the 4 Year War losses just from 2240 alone nearly 1/3 of the Saladins are gone along with 1/5 of the Sagarmatha's and a Kea.

That's a significant dip in Science capabilities just in that year, not to mention that the Saladin's facilities are noted to be obsolescent by 2240 anyways and the Sagarmatha's were phased out after the war.

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Point of order:
I dont disagree with your larger conclusions, but I think I should point out that 9x Keas survived the war and served until the 2290s. The Science deficit is dire but not catastrophic

Whats missing is dilithium analysis

The 12x Keas had their dilithium labs deleted during the war and replaced with torpedos
The only other ships that have dilithium labs are the 16x Saladins, 5 of which died in the first year of the war.
Dunno how many survived the rest of the war, but the last of them retire in 2271

That suggests a need for at least 17x new ships with dilithium labs just to get back to pre-war dilithium survey capacity
Probably more
Something to keep in mind when we discuss modules

 

[Tank man]

I mean, Starfleet likely has an absolute DIRE need for dilithium with all the ships they need to build, and they just finished pulling the Dilithium labs out of their Dilithium survey ships to press them into war ships.

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The only other ships that have dilithium labs are the 16x Saladins, 5 of which died in the first year of the war.
Dunno how many survived the rest of the war, but they retire in 2271

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To say nothing of the fact the Saladin, whilst still around to some extent and with dilithium labs, is far too slow and fragile to undertake these sorts of missions near the edge of/just outside of Federation space.

 

[Wootius]

I can't prove a negative.

To quote myself from above: "Nobody claimed that the text said engineering should be excluded, just that between the warp 8 Newton and the Archer it's probably not going to be needed as much."

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I can prove however that we have a explicit mandate to demphasize science. A generalist and/or resource lab should be enough.

 

[Lohjak]

I mean, Starfleet likely has an absolute DIRE need for dilithium with all the ships they need to build, and they just finished pulling the Dilithium labs out of their Dilithium survey ships to press them into war ships.

And science labs, dilithium labs, improved sensors, and a oversized shuttlebay make a pretty good generalist on TOP of being a Dilithium survey ships.

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Yes, but dilithium survey suites are not actually required to find dlithium deposits, they just let you also evaluate what you do find immediately instead of sending a ship carrying specialist equipment over later. It's nice to have, but they were removed from the Keas because everything else is just more generally useful.

If we just build Kea but with torpedoes and not bad maneuverability, I don't think Starfleet will be terribly excited. It just doesn't bring anything to the table that isn't already there.

 

[LOLROFL]

There's no way that Starfleet is going to put in a large order for even more science ships. All of their heavy cruisers are already science ships, and they've just bought a couple tranches of small science ships.

A science generalist is probably not going to see many orders.

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The Kea's ability to do science stuff along the border is very limited considering the fact that it's a short ranged (70 ly only) and old design from the 2210's.

The Kea Retrospective explicitly states that it's only capable of short planned missions, not the sort of exploring that the Excaliburs are doing.

The Kea-class was restricted to short, planned missions on the edges of Federation space, but its impressive scientific suite provided invaluable information about the surrounding systems: there are currently fifteen million colonists living on planets today that were first surveyed by the Kea-class and quickly marked as ideal for future habitation.

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The Excalibur's meanwhile were only pressed into that job during the 2250's because Starfleet didn't have anything else for them to do and because the Excalibur's had good range, their science facilities were explicitly subpar for the job and that weakness was why requirements for dedicated explorers was codified.

Given the fact that the Federation class should have even better range and actual room to be filled with science facilities that gives Starfleet a reason to retask the Excalibur's to other duties (like dealing with Orion pirates which were mentioned in the Attenborough Retrospective) since they faced a ton of attrition from that work.

After the war the surviving Excalibur-class ships faced an uncertain future. Lacking the facilities to participate in the rebuilding efforts they were assigned to suppressing the surge in piracy caused by the depletion of Starfleet's patrol roster and flying the flag near contested borders with the Tholian Assembly and Gorn Hegemony. They finally entered their second stage of life in the 2250s when a recovered Starfleet turned its attention back to beyond its borders. The Pathfinder Missions were designed to use the Excalibur's range and speed to chart over a hundred light years beyond the boundaries of Federation space.

The Excalibur would become the most common exploration ship in the Starfleet roster for some time, if not the foremost scientific platform. It provided a vital service in identifying lifebearing stars, cataloguing stellar phenomena, and carrying out First Contact with a number of new civilizations. In the era in which the Federation was constantly discovering novel new demonstrations of heretofore-unknown sciences it was the Excalibur that reported the first sightings.

Unfortunately this meant that the Excalibur was the first ship subjected to its discoveries, and this often resulted in serious casualties and total ship losses. The Curtana and Tyrfing were destroyed during the infamous multitronic incident, Dainsleif was digested during the first encounter with massive unicellular lifeforms, the crew of the Damocles were killed by macroscopic parasites, and the Hauteclere faced the ultimate indignity of being used to prop up the Terran Empire for an extra hundred years in the mirror universe.

The high attrition rate suffered by the Excalibur-class during the Pathfinder Missions was a major factor in the codification of the 'explorer' as a specific design brief. The stunning performance of the Enterprise in the course of its duties was considered the result of the spectacular brilliance of its command crew and their ability to accomplish novel solutions with limited resources. Future long-term missions beyond resupply would be traditionally accomplished by ships specifically designed for the task.

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Edit:
A tranche of 10 additional science ships isn't really much when Starfleet at this point is down 10 Explorers (the 10 Sagarmatha's that were active during 2240) and 16 Science ships (the 16 Saladin's lost that designation in 2240) plus however many Kea's were lost during the war.

 

[uju32]

We built 18 new Archers between 2245 and 2260
Between that and the Miranda's Engineering, its reasonable to suspect that Engineering is not a major concern in this design

 

[Gavinfoxx]

[X] 6 Phaser Banks (Type V) [Damage: 32] [60% Coverage] [Cost: 129]

 

[Wootius]

And Command is likely going to blot out the stars with Mirandas and generalist labs.

But where did Command ask for more science over engineering? Maybe engineering is higher priority because they don't just want to rebuild after the war but build tall, which means they need a huge amount of engineering support.

 

[stakenbake]

I can prove however that we have a explicit mandate to demphasize science. A generalist and/or resource lab should be enough.

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From my reading it looks like you're confusing permission to de-emphasize science as an explicit mandate to do so. those are not the same things.

 

[LOLROFL]

Lets not do this

No BoP fired at them previously
But its pretty clearly stated that the BoPs have all been in a brawl with Starfleet's lighter cruisers, with bigger vessels like the Kea to the Joyeuse's starboard taking longrange potshots

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I really suggest you read the entire Battle of Andoria, I have mentioned already that I am only using snippets so there is generally more stuff that wasn't included.

Prior to the bogey that is identified as a BoP the Joyuese eats disruptor fire from a BoP, given the fact that the BoP that eat's the two torpedoes was called a bogey first that one is probably a different one from the one that shoots the Joyeuse earlier.

UFS Joyeuse
Battle of Andoria, T+12 Minutes

The bridge of the Joyuese was a picture of professionalism, a calm crew exchanging reports and monitoring their stations. In the background the high-pitched whine of the phaser banks was a constant accompaniment to their work. Lieutenant Hadley at operations was splitting his attention between the status board and the targeting sensors, anticipating which of the swirling Birds-of-Prey would next enter the Excalibur-class starship's forward arcs.

That was the disadvantage of these high-speed tactics, Commander Robert April mused, that the necessity of evading pursuit from the frigates and light cruisers in the Federation line inevitably meant their momentum occasionally carried them into the line-of-sight of the heavy cruisers. Admittedly the Joyuese's aft phaser bank was still doing most of the work, and he was starting to get a little bit tetchy about the readings from the aft emitters. "Captain," he reported. "There is an increasing beam dispersion in the aft banks. I recommend a thirty-second coolant cycle to bring the temperatures down." The ship rocked gently, a Bird-of-Prey's dual disruptors raking across the starboard bubble.

"Shields at 73%," Lieutenant Chin-Riley observed. "No damage."

Captain Cornwell nodded. "Aft phasers, cease fire. Mr Hadley, keep an eye out. Any update on the cruisers."

"Aye Captain, aft phasers ceasing fire." Hadley checked his scopes. "The light cruisers are engaged at the center of the line. D7s still hanging back. Wait - we have a bogey coming up our port. Bird-of-Prey, they're going to overshoot."

"Ready tubes one and two, standby forward phasers."

The Bird-of-Prey swooped past the ship on the right, it's path curving across the bow of the Joyuese. The pair of photons launched almost simultaneously, a pair of cool-blue sapphires slamming into the smaller ship. The first splashed against the dorsal shields, but the second bled through the bubble with the effect of a hammer, the smaller ship's left wing jerking sharply down. Almost wobbling on its axis, the Bird-of-Prey flipped over to face the Joyeuse in a move that saw a scintillating blue phaser beam sweeping through empty space.

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[Lohjak]

The Kea's ability to do science stuff along the border is very limited considering the fact that it's a short ranged (70 ly only) and old design from the 2210's.

The Kea Retrospective explicitly states that it's only capable of short planned missions, not the sort of exploring that the Excaliburs are doing.

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Yes, that was prior to the refit which added improved fuel tanks. It should have a range of around 140LY at this point. Not enough to go far beyond our borders, but plenty to take missions on the frontier.

The Excalibur's meanwhile were only pressed into that job during the 2250's because Starfleet didn't have anything else for them to do and because the Excalibur's had good range, their science facilities were explicitly subpar for the job and that weakness was why requirements for dedicated explorers was codified.

Given the fact that the Federation class should have even better range and actual room to be filled with science facilities that gives Starfleet a reason to retask the Excalibur's to other duties (like dealing with Orion pirates which were mentioned in the Attenborough Retrospective) since they faced a ton of attrition from that work.

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And then what, we're going to build even more explorers when the Excelsior rolls around?

A ship takes around ten years to design, so we're at best going to have two designs between this one and the Excelsior. At some point we have to take a break from building science ships, which right now are 3 of our past four ships.

 

[Wootius]

From my reading it looks like you're confusing permission to de-emphasize science as an explicit mandate to do so. those are not the same things.

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it uses the words "explicit mandate" in the text

Yes, that was prior to the refit which added improved fuel tanks. It should have a range of around 140LY at this point. Not enough to go far beyond our borders, but plenty to take missions on the frontier.

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140ly is roughly one end of the current federation to the other right now

 

[Bedpotato]

I just realized if we make the Federation a engineer ship we stack the boni for industry and help making our Federation even more industrial than the canon one, you know Canon loved their treknobabbel science solutions, our federation just uses more industry to drown the enemy in superior engineered vessels!

 

[Tank man]

it uses the words "explicit mandate" in the text

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Yes, but it also has may elect to in it.

and having an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities beyond the basics means you can have some fun with the mission profile

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As in, if you really want to, you can, not that you (we) must not add anything but the most basic.

So I do have to ask why you're treating it like a holy writ that we mustn't do more than the most basic for it, science wise?

 

[stakenbake]

it uses the words "explicit mandate" in the text

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where?

There's no two ways to put it, the Four Years War has seriously diminished Starfleet's active roster. While much of the Excalibur-class remains active and potent, as are more than half the Kea-class ships that went into the conflict, there has been major attrition for less survivable starships. Fortunately the Archer-class represents a major logistical capability that is staunching the bleed of lingering capability losses towards the border, which has provided some breathing room to conceive a more lasting solution than emergency crash builds of older designs. While the Saladin and Selachii-classes were primarily combatants, the Newton was providing a useful response and utility function that the slower (and more logistically valuable) Archers are now having to cover.

More pertinently in strategic terms, however, the Newton's size and quality tactical systems made it the cruiser that made up the 'bulk' of fleet deployments during the war. Their ability to provide a stable firing position while other fleet elements maneuvered around or through their formations represent a key element of Federation fleet doctrine. Put simply, they need a replacement. To that end there are two competing ideas for how to accomplish this, and while Klingon debris is accelerating warp coil and hull metallurgy development, advancements are not expected to mature for some time yet. So you have to do it with the technology you have available today.

The first proposal is for a midweight generalist. The hope is that Project Miranda will produce a starship with a reduction in non-vital capabilities in exchange for a reasonably costed and capable generalist able to take up missions as required. As an in-territory vessel with only basic scientific facilities, the freed space could be utilised for tactical, engineering, and utility concerns. The main question would be what non-auxiliary areas would be sacrificed to drive the costs down.

The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.

[ ] Project Miranda (Midweight Generalist)
[ ] Project Federation (Heavy Line Cruiser)

Two Hour Moratorium, Please

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The closest to what you're saying is the case of the first suggestion, Project Miranda, which we didn't take. "Eplicit Mandate" isn't even the words used.

Edt: oh wrong post to quote, either way ninjad by @Tank man

 

[Tank man]

The closest to what you're saying is the case of the first suggestion, Project Miranda, which we didn't take. "Eplicit Mandate" isn't even the words used.

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Comes in under the shields section, not in the actual brief, which is where some of the confusion is coming from.

However, as I've pointed out the bit in the shield section says that we have been explicitly told that if we really want to we can not do more than the basic science wise, not that we must only do the most basic.

 

[Starwarlord]

[X] 6 Phaser Banks (Type V) [Damage: 32] [60% Coverage] [Cost: 129]

Again, this is meant to be a ship that can be produced in numbers, not a one off like the dreads.

 

[Wootius]

where?

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Starfleet Design Bureau Sci-Fi

Design starships from Enterprise onwards, dealing with production capabilities and internal layouts to meet the demands of Starfleet as Earth takes the galactic stage. With art!

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Yes, but it also has may elect to in it.

As in, if you really want to, you can, not that you (we) must not add anything but the most basic.

So I do have to ask why you're treating it like a holy writ that we mustn't do more than the most basic for it, science wise?

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Because I have text to support me in doing so.

Where is your basis for Command asking for science over engineering?

 

[A Slipspace Tree]

it uses the words "explicit mandate" in the text

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Given the use of "you may elect" in that statement. It's giving us written permission to tone down the science if we so choose (but basic science is still mandatory).

Project Federation is likely to be equal if not exceeding in mass any design you've built to date, and having an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities beyond the basics means you can have some fun with the mission profile. But before you even get to planning the hull geometry you need to know what you're working with.

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Essentially they want a high mass ship that besides some minimums, had a very open ended mission profile. So if we come up with something other then just a high science ship we could do that instead.

 

[Strunkriidiisk]

Starfleet Design Bureau Sci-Fi

Design starships from Enterprise onwards, dealing with production capabilities and internal layouts to meet the demands of Starfleet as Earth takes the galactic stage. With art!

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

I ask you to find the quest text that says we have the explicit mandate to exclude or demphasize engineering.

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Your own quote shows that the "explicit mandate" is that we MAY de-emphasize sciences, not that we MUST. And frankly that should be taken as "don't worry about internal space" since most of our module options are scientific - for non-sciences we have, what, cargo and shuttle bays? Workshops are deprecated.

 

[Lohjak]

It's not even just a high science ship that all the people arguing for science want, though. Dilithium survey is specifically useful for survey cruisers that will spend most of their time surveying planets for resources or potential colony sites like the Kea, a role which makes very poor use of the maximum cruise we've specced this ship for. For a ship this size to justify spending modules on diluthium we would also definitely have to take a geology lab, and at that point we might as well also take biosciences and other survey equipment, and so we've literally just updated the Kea.

 

[Tank man]

Because I have text to support me in doing so.

Where is your basis for Command asking for science over engineering?

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All that the text says is that if we really want to we can go with the most basic scientific fit that the modules allow us, not that we must, not that we should, if we want to.

And I don't see a single bit of text there that tells us we should necessarily emphasise engineering over science, about the closest is some inference from the loss of the Newtons hurting due to a loss of utility, one that we know is (at the very least) being provided by the Miranda-class.
We already skipped out on the shuttle deck, so all that remains engineering wise really is the cargo bay (unless Sayle throws some new stuff at us), which is a single module.

 

[stakenbake]

And I don't see a single bit of text there that tells us we should necessarily emphasise engineering over science, about the closest is some inference from the loss of the Newtons hurting due to a loss of utility, one that we know is (at the very least) being provided by the Miranda-class.
We already skipped out on the shuttle deck, so all that remains engineering wise really is the cargo bay (unless Sayle throws some new stuff at us), which is a single module.

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When the Admiralty Board hates how ugly the Archer looks they deliberately word things to trick us into making another engineering ship lmao