Starfleet Design Bureau

I forgot I quoted you again.
My apologies;I'll try not to do it again.

Moving along:
Weapons Platform Design said:
Something worth keeping in mind during those discussions of appropriate levels of shielding and maneuver
What happened to the Sagamarthas at Pharos Four was a warning about relying on tankiness alone, but the Radiant was similarly a testament to the dangers of relying on just speed
 
How frequently do ships actually successfully evade weapons fire versus simply being hit in the updates so far?
 
s. It's going to end up twice the cost of the Miranda for no reason and little overall gain.
For a reasonable amount of gain, actually. Assuming they stuck to the brief the Miranda is meant to cut costs wherever it can to produce an economical design that's able to do a little bit of everything (but not all that well compared to a ship that's dedicated more to it, even if said ship isn't a specialist), including using last generation components whenever possible, and it's still come out at much the same cost as an Excalibur.

The Federation design brief explicitly called for the opposite, and even with the cost of the 10x type v phasers as long as we go for 3x type 4 photon torpedo launchers it'll max out at 164, which is less than double the cost of a tranche 2 Excalibur (about 20 cost less, actually)

Whilst we've not yet sorted out the modules for it this ship represents the cutting edge of weapons technology (or at least will, assuming we go for the type 4 launchers exclusively), and is a design that's intended to cover very large stretches of our territory at speeds and durations no other ship can yet manage*

I definitely would recommend the procurement of two Mirandas over a Federation at 170 cost or a Miranda and an Excaliber.
I wouldn't, whilst tactical capabilities are probably going to be broadly similar (26+ alpha over the Excalibur for the federation if we got for type 4s, probably equal alpha for the Miranda) the role these ships will fulfil will be quite different.

You wouldn't use a butchers knife where you need a scalpel, and you wouldn't use a IFV where you need a tank.

*Which for surface ships is generally something that really drives costs up too, though the existence of multiple classes of ships which have emphasised this since the late 1800s showcases that it is a valuable capability (particularly for nations with great stretches of the sea to cover)
 
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Hear me out, WOG is only 2x forward launchers.

2x forward type 4 photon launchers will (together with the phasers) net us 136 alpha, 26 more than the Excalibur.

2x forward rapids would net us more firepower, yes, but they'd also cost 24 rather than the 10 two forward type 4s would (and seem to be something of a technological dead end, verses the type 4 which debuts the photon torpedo we all know and love for the next few hundred years).
Definitely going with 2 forward and 1 rear type 4s for torps. More advanced and good enough firepower to act as finishers for targets weakened by phaser fire.
 
Definitely going with 2 forward and 1 rear type 4s for torps. More advanced and good enough firepower to act as finishers for targets weakened by phaser fire.
Most importantly, good firepower for the cost. You're getting 7.2 damage (burst) per 1 cost verses 4.5 damage (burst) per 1 cost for the rapid fire.

Or 2.4 damage (regular) and 1.5 damage (regular) per 1 cost, respectively.
 
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I wouldn't, whilst tactical capabilities are probably going to be broadly similar (26+ alpha over the Excalibur for the federation if we got for type 4s, probably equal alpha for the Miranda) the role these ships will fulfill will be quite different.

No, they're both tanky ships that are meant to be anti-BoP. The Federation is gonna fail under analysis because two Miranda are going to have more damage, more HP, and more overall usefulness because it's two ships aren't that much worse then this one. Even the cruise bonus isn't helpful, because two ships can be in two places at once if it comes down to it.

I also disagreed with almost everything you've say for this design brief. If you actually think cost is a problem the time to save is this vote, where our prior choices most synergize(speed and maximum HP for manageable coverage) with the cost savings options, not the next. If cost is not a problem, dumping that aft torpedo is a waste. Limited the aft armament at this stage to save five cost now is like putting a bandage on a corpse, funny but ineffective. : p
 
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With the design as it is now I would honestly prefer to get more (in cost terms) Excaliburs than the present Federation class, from a purely tactical standpoint.
Which would be solidly outclassed by the K'tinga without significant upgrades to shields and phasers
A bad plan.

A new build post-refit configuration Callie would need
  • +12 points for heavy covariant shields
  • +6.75 points for 3x Type 4 standard torpedoes
  • +6 points for 3x Type 5 phasers

Thats a total upcharge of 24.75 points, raising Excalibur mass production costs from 91.25 points to 116 points, just from the weapons suite, and not counting whatever they did with the warp coils
An actual refit would cost more, because you dont get a discount on existing systems

And it would still be less tanky than a K'tinga cruiser, which would have 50 shields to its 44

How frequently do ships actually successfully evade weapons fire versus simply being hit in the updates so far?
Seen it happen onscreen at Andoria

EDIT *checks*Both BoPs and an Excalibur did it
 
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It bears pointing out that none of the ships in those quotes were fresh by the time the Joyeuse popped them
I am really beginning to wonder if people actually bother to read the "Battle of Andoria" post before making comments about what happened during that battle.

Martok's narration indicates that the Klingon cruisers stayed out of the initial fighting so when they actually did engage they should have been fresh which lines up with the fact that the crew of the Joyeuse also noted that the D7's were hanging back.

Note that during the approach the D7's didn't take any fire during their approach until the Joyeuse unloaded it's torpedoes into the lead D7.
The Birds-of-Prey danced through the Federation lines, but the Andorians and smaller Starfleet ships were waiting to engage them. In the chaos Starfleet held its nerve and refused to break, and so the Klingon cruiser wings held back from their charge to wait for their moment to pounce with all their strength. But Starfleet held, and the Birds-of-Prey were forced to engage their own pursuers or be destroyed.

...

"Aye Captain, aft phasers ceasing fire." Hadley checked his scopes. "The light cruisers are engaged at the center of the line. D7s still hanging back. Wait - we have a bogey coming up our port. Bird-of-Prey, they're going to overshoot."

...

"I'll live, sir," he croaked, blood already matting his uniform and giving off the faint smell of scorched hair and he climbed back into his seat. The operations console beeped, and with one eye closed he looked down the scope. "Shit. Three D7s, approaching bearing one two seven, mark zero three zero. Fifteen seconds out."

"Sounds like a fair fight," April grit out, pulling himself back to the center of the bridge and sitting in the command chair. "Bring us about, tubes on target! Ms. Riley, we need our shields back or we're dead." He hit his armrest panel. "Medical team to the bridge."

"Shields reconstructing. We've lost a forward emitter to momentum-shock from the collision but the field is coming back up at…47%."

"It'll have to do," April replied grimly. "Mr Hadley, the moment they're in range hit the lead ship with everything we've got."

"Aye, Commander."

The D7s hadn't even begun to open fire when the Joyeuse opened up, a trio of torpedoes from each of her forward tubes then followed by another two as the rapid-launcher discharged its magazine. The leading cruiser took all of them straight on the chin, its shield perimeter flaring scarlet. Then a phaser beam lanced out and carved deep into its now exposed wing, and it abruptly peeled off at high impulse - straight into the sights of the Kea twenty kilometers to port, which was more than happy to finish the job with a pair of torpedoes as it focused on suppressing the other Birds-of-Prey with its phasers.

The other two cruisers, however, were not to be dissuaded from their attack run. Disruptor beams and a pair of plasma torpedoes slammed into the ship's shields, and the bridge lighting flickered.

"Shields are failing!" Riley shouted, ducking her head as a shower of sparks rained down over her head.

"Burst main impulse drive, get us some speed and keep the bow on target!" April ordered. The aft and starboard engines at the aft of the Joyeuse's half-saucer glowed a brighter blue as it moved forward and simultaneously rolled to starboard. The D7s kept charging in, and another burst of disruptor fire flashed through the empty space the Federation starship had just occupied. The return phaser fire simply splashed off their shields as the Klingon battlecruisers closed to minimum range.

The next volley was too close to miss. Green beams raked across the port nacelle as drive plasma exploded free of the containment fields to scorch the hull around the breach. The other D7 landed a more obliquely angled strike that opened half-a-dozen hull breaches across the saucer but failed to penetrate deeper to any critical systems. The entire ship seemed to shake, the impulse engines cutting out suddenly.

The D7s soared past, but not before the Joyeuse's photon launchers cycled and spat another full volley of torpedoes into the path of the second D7. At such a close range it was impossible to miss, and being already weakened by the Joyeuse's forward phasers meant the shields were already partially depleted. It was enough - the photons battered down the shields in a two second sequence of impacts and the Klingon cruiser's hull seemed to wrench apart into three separate pieces that went sailing off towards a fiery death in Andoria's atmosphere.
 


Unfortunately more bulgey rollbars look very strange (and I did check initially), and this one...yeah, doesn't connect to the bottom well. I think it's ugly in a slightly different way, maybe people like it better?
I actually kinda like how that looks, to me at least looks better then the single rollbar.

Granted also makes me think of those one bombs and their fins that are dropped. Still, I think this does look better.
 
I am really beginning to wonder if people actually bother to read the "Battle of Andoria" post before making comments about what happened during that battle.

Martok's narration indicates that the Klingon cruisers stayed out of the initial fighting so when they actually did engage they should have been fresh which lines up with the fact that the crew of the Joyeuse also noted that the D7's were hanging back.

Note that during the approach the D7's didn't take any fire during their approach until the Joyeuse unloaded it's torpedoes into the lead D7.
I did?
Your own quote makes it clear the first BoP the Joyeuse killed had already seen combat, and it still took two torpedo hits to bring down its remaining shields for a phaser kill

Furthermore?
The Joyeuse's command crew wasnt paying attention to the D7s after its collision with the BoP
 
No, they're both tanky ships that are meant to be anti-BoP. The Federation is gonna fail under analysis because two Miranda are going to have more damage, more HP, and more overall usefulness because it's two ships aren't that much worse then this one. Limited the aft armament at this stage to save five cost now is like putting a bandage on a corpse, funny but ineffective. : p

I also disagreed with almost everything you've say for this design brief. If you actually think cost is a problem the time to save is this vote, where our prior choices most synergize with cost savings options(speed and maximum HP), not the next. If cost is not a problem, dumping that aft torpedo is a waste.
Tanky is relative, the Miranda is 200kt so it should have a hull rating of 42 (assuming a similar ratio as the Excalibur, which would also give us 63) and given the desire to keep the costs down it probably only uses a standard covariant shield so 40 shields (verses us having 75).
The Miranda can probably fulfil the anti-BoP role decently, given it's basically an Excalibur plus a few as far as shield/hull value goes and with better weapons coverage, but it'd find itself woefully outclassed when it comes time to fight anything else (especially ships designed as Excalibur killers) unless you've got a substantial number of supporting ships - and as we know, going into this era fleet combat is going to be rarer, with individual or small unit combat becoming more and more common, meaning it's going to be quite vulnerable.

The statement regarding rear torpedo armament is made under the assumption that with only 2x forward torpedoes being allowed the limit for the rear will be 1x, if we can put in more I might support that. It'd still deliver us a ship that's cheaper than 2x Miranda's or Excaliburs, with substantially more utility than a glorified warp 8 Newton.

Cost is not a problem for me (remember, I've been arguing that cost isn't as much if a constraining factor as it was pre-war for some time) beyond the fact that we'd be more efficient going for the non-dead end torpedoes that actually net us more than 1.5 damage per 1 cost in non-burst scenarios (and only 4.5 damage per 1 cost in bust scenarios, which is inferior to the type 4 in both scenarios*). The rapid fire torpedoes do offer an impressive capability, but not one that is in line with their cost verses the type 4.

*the type 4s offer 7.2 damage per 1 cost for burst and 2.4 damage per 1 cost for regular.
 
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With the design as it is now I would honestly prefer to get more (in cost terms) Excaliburs than the present Federation class, from a purely tactical standpoint.
The reason that Starfleet doesn't buy more Excaliburs is because they're only really ideal from that purely tactical standpoint, though. They also don't work well as fleet anchors, which is again a large part of why this thing is so expensive.
 
@Sayle - I've been giving some thought to our reactions of the ships percieved costs. Without somthing to reference to it's just a bunch of numbers and I do think that we really need somthing solid to work with:
At the beginning of each project, wthe class is assigned a % of the Federation GDP. The % may move up or down depending on the threat levels and need for ships.
This % is then declared to be a specific number of points a year. It is updated every 10 years/next project to account for the increase in points available due to the federations new GDP.
When the design is finalised, if there are any points left over they can either be reserved for that ship class and possibly saved up to produce an extra ship or 2, or transferred to a general "extra funding" pool that all the clases under construction may donate towards.
If however the ship design is over-budget, then they could either build less of them or request some points from the extra funding pool.
As some component costs decrease over time, there will be extra points available. Again they could save up and build another ship, transfer them to the extra funding pool, or the budget could be reduced to match the new cost with the free points being allocated to a new ship design that needs a larger budget.
Finally, when they stop building a ship class a small amnount is kept for ship refits while the rest is earmarked towards the new ship design. The refit budget ends when there are no more planned/the class is decomissioned.
 
Tanky is relative, the Miranda is 200kt so it should have a hull rating of 42 (assuming a similar ratio as the Excalibur, which would also give us 63) and given the desire to keep the costs down it probably only uses a standard covariant shield so 40 shields (verses us having 75).
The Miranda can probably fulfil the anti-BoP role decently, given it's basically an Excalibur plus a few as far as shield/hull value goes, but it'd find itself woefully outclassed when it comes time to fight anything else (especially ships designed as Excalibur killers) unless you've got a substantial number of supporting ships - and as we know, going into this era fleet combat is going to be rarer, with individual or small unit combat becoming more and more common, meaning it's going to be quite vulnerable.

The statement regarding rear torpedo armament is made under the assumption that with only 2x forward torpedoes being allowed the limit for the rear will be 1x, if we can put in more I might support that. It'd still deliver us a ship that's cheaper than 2x Miranda's or Excaliburs, with substantially more utility than a glorified warp 8 Newton.

Cost is not a problem for me (remember, I've been arguing that cost isn't as much if a constraining factor as it was pre-war for some time) beyond the fact that we'd be more efficient going for the non-dead end torpedoes that actually net us more than 1.5 damage per 1 cost in non-burst scenarios (and only 4.5 damage per 1 cost in bust scenarios, which is inferior to the type 4 in both scenarios*). The rapid fire torpedoes do offer an impressive capability, but not one that is in line with their cost verses the type 4.

*the type 4s offer 7.2 damage per 1 cost for burst and 2.4 damage per 1 cost for regular.

I disagree with everything you've said again. The Kilngons are overstretched and already running a war economy: they couldn't afford D7s, much less the new class AND doubling the cost of their BoPs.

The Newton to Miranda is going to (almost) double in HP, go from 38% to 100% coverage, have ~6x the average damage ( 5.3 to 30+?), and 50% more burst(41 to 60). The tech gap is closed, It's going to be an excellent patrol boat. 2x Mirandas is going to be equal or 10 more then a Federation at 165-170, it's not going to be significant at all and it feels disingenuous when you try to say it will be.

If we had kept the Federation down to ~135 cost(Standard Warp Core, no quads, and normal engines we'd be at 135 cost for ten phasers and 3 torpedoes) I think it'd have been an excellent heavy complement. As it stands two Mirandas is going to be better value in all situations except spherical cow duels.
 
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I've been giving some thought to our reactions of the ships percieved costs.
I can say I'd be for this, as it is the costs are a bit too abstract for my liking. If we had a proper read on the funding available it'd go a long way to making the ship design process smother, and less panicked, at least from the players end of things (so instead of worrying about say 145 cost for a starship it'd be 14.5 cost per ship pear year).

This % is then declared to be a specific number of points a year. It is updated every 10 years/next project to account for the increase in points available due to the federations new GDP.
Whilst we've constructed ships over longer periods (and probably will continue to do so), this does align decently well with the costing of naval ship procurement.
 
The easiest option is to just set a design cost goal. "Starfleet wants a diplomatic ship, they want to spend roughly 70-90 on it."

*Commands side eyes Planet Utopia*

"You spent 89.99999999999 but made both the most beautiful ship ever with an entirely transparent upper deck for conferences AND a hospital ship in the lower decks. You're out of control but damn if that's not a fine ship. Don't let me see your face for the next two weeks."
 
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The reason that Starfleet doesn't buy more Excaliburs is because they're only really ideal from that purely tactical standpoint, though. They also don't work well as fleet anchors, which is again a large part of why this thing is so expensive.
Also, critically, a modernized Excalibur isnt that much cheaper just from a tactical perspective

A Callie built to post-war combat standards, with heavy covariant shields instead of heavy normal shields, Type 5 phasers instead of Type 2s, and Type 4 torpedoes to replace its non-rapid launchers, is looking like only a third less than the Federation while being both less tanky than a Ktinga and 70% less shooty phaser wise than a Feddie

The Callie gets a refit with all that and more in 2265, 10-15 years after the Ktinga begins to show up
Hardly a coincidence
 
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This is essentially asking for an economic simulation, which we started the quest with and ended up ditching precisely because it was a pain. If all the general 'costs' of something were plotted out 100 years into the future then maybe it makes sense, but as it stands I don't know how much a Galaxy-class costs. I only know how much something costs in comparison to how much other things would cost at the present moment. Maybe something along the lines of disclosing the expected stats and cost of a competitor design, or an 'expected' budget beforehand, but any suggestion of simulating the Federation's GDP is a nonstarter.
 
Nickle and diming would be getting the old cheap phasers and claiming the new are too expensive or something. I honestly just don't think that the three minor blindspots will meaningfully effect performance for the cost.
You see, that right there? That is the text book definition of nickel and diming logic.
 
Y'know, I look at this debate over the minutia of weapons budget and ship cost before we've even gotten to module space (which is where I believe that Project Federation will decisively outstrip Project Miranda and prove the class's worth), and I can't help but be exhausted without having said all that much one way or another. That I get unsettlingly Delphian visions for the future of my own quest is no less disquieting.

Starfleet asked for a tactically sound battlecruiser (and that's the designation I'm sticking with, no need to see more of that debate), but beyond the part of the missive where Starfleet's okay with us not having as much in the way of science facilities, the rest of the project is going to be determined, as most all peace-time projects before have been, on the efficacy of its module complement. And, per Starfleet and QM, we have a lot of room to play with this project. Even in small numbers, I could see this a being a versatile flagship class before we get to our big stellar exploration-focused vessels.
 
No, they're both tanky ships that are meant to be anti-BoP. The Federation is gonna fail under analysis because two Miranda are going to have more damage, more HP, and more overall usefulness because it's two ships aren't that much worse then this one. Even the cruise bonus isn't helpful, because two ships can be in two places at once if it comes down to it.

I also disagreed with almost everything you've say for this design brief. If you actually think cost is a problem the time to save is this vote, where our prior choices most synergize(speed and maximum HP for manageable coverage) with the cost savings options, not the next. If cost is not a problem, dumping that aft torpedo is a waste. Limited the aft armament at this stage to save five cost now is like putting a bandage on a corpse, funny but ineffective. : p
The Federation will be worth more than 2 Miranda's because in an emergency the Miranda's are going to only get 2/3rds as far. The Federation is FAST. It's max cruise and especially efficient cruise are faster than any ship we could possibly build.

A Federation is about 50% faster than a Miranda, and that almost in of itself justifies twice the cost. Add in that the Federation is a more capable ship when it gets where it is going and the cost seems downright reasonable.

And the Federation and Miranda are both built to counter birds of prey, but they are built to counter them in different contexts. The Miranda is built to counter birds of prey acting as raiders where you needs an overmatching ship spread out enough to make raiding unprofitable. The Federation is designed to counter flocks of BoPs acting as swarms during fleet combat. It's tough enough to survive the focused fire and hits hard enough and in enough directions that the flock is forced to take casualties engaging.
 
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More then double the cost after all. 👀

Which, as I just said, means that our focus needs to be on allowing the ship to be remarkably versatile, not just a big beat stick. The cost is going to be high, but giving the project a remarkably broad mission profile will likely make the pill at least a little easier to swallow (the potential ability to refit the nacelle rollbars to carry mission pods could help in that regard). A part of me wonders if the upcoming end of the treaty period with the Klingons might have made us a little too focused on the weapons profile of the ship.

Part of me also sometimes wonders how the Martian plains don't have a crater where our offices used to be, with how spirited our discussions can get.
 
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