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Starfleet Design Bureau

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Bedpotato said:
Everyone join the BBBB (Big Beautiful Battleships)Club. Not only would their existence mar a shift in Starfleet thinking away from the canon one ship fills all multirole approach. But Battleships do not need engineering/Science compartments so we can stuff as much gun as fits into its frame.
Also who does want to see the sheer beauty of a big Battleship smashing Romulan warbirds with big cannons?

I do and so should you.
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So the thing is, single-role ships only make sense now, but will fall out of ROI eventually. High guard (read:space coast guard) ships sure should be onerole. Cheap and efficient are the names of the games, they don't even need warp drives. But pure battleships don't have such a role and will increasingly be mothballed and eventually scrapped.

But having updated designs on file for wartime exigencies? Yeah. That does make sense.
 
GildedSergeant said:
One of our Stingrays just got smoked in a 1v1, and was said to be "half-crippled" after just the opening salvo. We'd need at least 2v1 odds if we were only fielding Stingrays against their warbirds.
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Ah, I understand the confusion. That was an NX-class, not a Stingray, as shown by it following the Space Shuttle naming convention. My bad for not being explicit. But the update did say "a flight of warbirds" which is definitionally more than one.

Skippy said:
@Sayle, what's our total Industry right now again?

The one thing in favour of going for a frigate is it might be able to use up our Industry score more effectively. I don't think we have 75 Industry, so we can quite hit three Stingrays per year. Then again if we're allowed to build fractions of a Stingray or save Industry somehow, it's less of an issue.
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You have 64 industry.
 
Sayle said:
[ ] Advocate for the construction of a minimally expensive combat frigate capable of engaging the small Romulan ships one-on-one.
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Sayle said:
Skippy said:
Yeah, I wanted to ask, is the intent that the "frigate" voting option be a more heavily armed/expensive warship than the Stingray, or less?
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Less expensive! Smaller, less armed, but cheaper.
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Bedpotato said:
Where is that said? Can you show us a GM quote where A Stingray fights a single warbird and wins? The only showing we have is onscreen against some pirates and there the ship was captured by said pirates not exactly a vote of confidence.
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GildedSergeant said:
Vote as you will, but I'm afraid that isn't the case.



One of our Stingrays just got smoked in a 1v1, and was said to be "half-crippled" after just the opening salvo. We'd need at least 2v1 odds if we were only fielding Stingrays against their warbirds.

Edit: ninja'd
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If it's not obvious then we can break it down in a rough syllogism.

A) The Frigate option can take a Romulan Warbird 1-v-1
B) the Frigate option is smaller and less well armed than the Stingray.
C) Since the Stingray is larger and better armed than the Frigate, it is more capable than the Frigate
D) Since the Stingray is more capable than the Frigate it is more than capable of fighting a Romulan Warbird 1-v-1
 
[X] Recommend the continued production of the Stingray as a mainline tactical vessel.
 
[X] Support the construction of a heavily-armed battleship capable of enduring combat with multiple attackers.
Swarm tactics seems against Starfleet, and later federation ethos, as it involves inevitable sacrifices that bigger battleship might save.
 
We can make a battleship for similar cost of an nx we just use pre designed parts for everything get rid of as many weak points as possible and make it share the same armament (maybe 1 more torpedo) and saucer and nacceles as the nx but up the armor and make the secondary hull a cylinder to allow for more internal volume for the least surface area increase. And easy shape to make. Basically tank.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
You were asked to stop with this.
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Amended to Romulan.

Kartr_Kana said:
A) The Frigate option can take a Romulan Warbird 1-v-1
B) the Frigate option is smaller and less well armed than the Stingray.
C) Since the Stingray is larger and better armed than the Frigate, it is more capable than the Frigate
D) Since the Stingray is more capable than the Frigate it is more than capable of fighting a Romulan Warbird 1-v-1
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A.
Sayle said:
small Romulan ships one-on-one.
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The Romulan warbird is their mainline warhship not a small escort.
B: Yes the frigate is a cheap tincan that will die if someone looks at them wrong.
C: Correct again: The Stingray is a superior vessel to a hypothetical frigate.
D:Wrong The stingray is unable to deal with primitive (comparable to the romulans) pirates(even after our upgrades) A warbird is not only far larger but also heavier armed, armored and shielded than A STINGRAY. The lack of dorsal weaponry is a death sentence against cloaked Warbirds(The NX class is superior vessel in all parts and the romulan insta killed one via ambush. Your belief that a stingray would survive the same situation is foolish. So again where does the GM say that Stingray is better than Warbird? Nowhere!
 
James Poopert said:
We can make a battleship for similar cost of an nx we just use pre designed parts for everything get rid of as many weak points as possible and make it share the same armament (maybe 1 more torpedo) and sauce and nacceles as the nx but up the armor and make the secondary hull a cylinder to allow for more internal volume for the least surface area increase. And easy shape to make. Basically tank.
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And then the Romulans do the exact same thing to this battleship we can't build more than one of per year, because they attacked the NX when its defences were down and no ship can maintain full combat readiness round the clock.
 
Jensaarai said:
Based on it having a Shuttle name, that was an NX, not a Stingray. It was also a Romulan battle group that smoked the Endeavour, not a 1v1 fight.
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Sayle said:
Ah, I understand the confusion. That was an NX-class, not a Stingray, as shown by it following the Space Shuttle naming convention. My bad for not being explicit. But the update did say "a flight of warbirds" which is definitionally more than one.
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Ah, my bad. I went back to the previous posts to find all the names NX ships and didn't see Endeavor, so I assumed it was a Stingray. That said, I do still think it's more advantageous to go with a heavier ship design, even if not one clunky as the name "battleship" implies. I'm hoping for something roughly as expensive as the NX, but more optimized for combat. Hopefully, we can count on increased production via Vulcan industrial aid or emergency authorization for a funding increase.
 
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More Stingrays, or at least this theoretical frigate, lets us create our own battle groups that can hopefully cover each other's blind spots. At our current level of technology, a battleship faces the same problem the NX does, with no clear avenue around the Romulan's go-to of a cloaked alpha strike.
 
Strunkriidiisk said:
And then the Romulans do the exact same thing to this battleship we can't build more than one of per year, because they attacked the NX when its defences were down and no ship can maintain full combat readiness round the clock.
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It's not meant to be by itself it's meant to be a tank while working in concert with lighter ships their we're multiple fleet battles in the earth Romulan war, with low double digits of ships on both sides the battle for the sol system had 18 or so ships on earths side, and this is after their navy was decemated in multiple previous engagements. (though earth cannonicly also had more colony's than area does and recivied industrial support from it's allies with depending on what cannon you use their shipyards even building earth ships.)
 
Sayle said:
You have 64 industry.
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If we could make a ship that costs just a few Industry less than the Stingray, then we could build three per year instead of two. 3 Industry less (and maybe a prototype tech or two) would hardly make for a glaringly worse ship; we might even get something better as tech advances. And I just think it'd be fun to design a new ship.

[X] Advocate for the construction of a minimally expensive combat frigate capable of engaging the small Romulan ships one-on-one.
 
Bedpotato said:
A.
The Romulan warbird is their mainline warhship not a small escort.
B: Yes the frigate is a cheap tincan that will die if someone looks at them wrong.
C: Correct again: The Stingray is a superior vessel to a hypothetical frigate.
D:Wrong The stingray is unable to deal with primitive (comparable to the romulans) pirates(even after our upgrades) A warbird is not only far larger but also heavier armed, armored and shielded than A STINGRAY. The lack of dorsal weaponry is a death sentence against cloaked Warbirds(The NX class is superior vessel in all parts and the romulan insta killed one via ambush. Your belief that a stingray would survive the same situation is foolish. So again where does the GM say that Stingray is better than Warbird? Nowhere!
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A) in quest source please
D) I. It was ambushed by 4 Nausican pirate vessels when it was expecting to aid a vessel in distress.
II. source for the Nausicans being primitive compared to the Romulans.
III. Source for Romulan warbirds being far larger and more powerfully armed, shielded (I don't think they had Shields when Kirk fought them) and armored than a Stingray
IV. An NX class was ambushed and killed by a squadron of warbirds, not a single vessel.

Yes a Stingray jumped by a squadron of warbirds will die even faster than an NX jumped by a squadron of Warbirds. That does not change the logic chain that shows the Stingray is capable of fighting Romulans 1v1, it merely proves that we want multiple Stingray's operating in concert so that the Romulans can't out number them.
 
James Poopert said:
It's not meant to be by itself it's meant to be a tank while working in concert with lighter ships
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This is how I see this working as well. The Stingrays have a major 'flaw' in that they have lower durability so they're more likely to get wiped on the alpha attack than heavier options, and they have large blind areas they can't attack. A heavier ship can help keep the pressure off them by giving a more obvious target and lobbing shots at everything in a 360° degree radius, making their weaknesses less relevant.
 
You don't win a total war by building big bespoke shiny things which you can't produce in large numbers.

Honestly I'm considering going for the frigate here, if for no other reason then it would be more fun to do another design, and if we keep the cost to 21 Industry, then we can produce three per year. Yeah actually, I'm changing votes.

[X] Advocate for the construction of a minimally expensive combat frigate capable of engaging the small Romulan ships one-on-one.
 
[X] Recommend the continued production of the Stingray as a mainline tactical vessel.
[X] Advocate for the construction of a minimally expensive combat frigate capable of engaging the small Romulan ships one-on-one.

I'm not totally sure we're completely denying ourselves a new design if we stick with the Stingray, but yeah something below a cruiser sounds like an interesting parameter.
 
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