Yep. They work as a decent "IC" way for players to appeal to the DM.

(They also can be a less immersion-breaking way for a DM to do DM fiat than most, but there are generally better ways to accomplish this.)

For me, the best thing to do with them is basically go "X is preparing to cast a Wish/Miracle spell to do Y. Your job is to ensure it works/fails." And similar sorts of things. Its a tool to get the plot moving, not a spell the players can cast.
 
It was noted in the old module Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, reprinted in GDQ 1-7 Queen of Spiders, about how being on another plane affected certain spells. I don't know if there has been any reprint of those, or if it was mentioned in another source book since then. Maybe Manual of the Planes?
Oh wow, Queen of the Demonweb Pits was published in 1980. That's seriously old school XD

A great deal has changed in the four editions since, particularly with planar stuff about which virtually everything has changed several times. I don't think the arcane wish as divine spell idea applies to more recent editions, but of course you should use any source or idea that best fits the story.
 
So, when Taylor eventually gets her 9th level spells (in about 600 - 700 years), any Wish she casts will go straight to Bahamut - as she is nominally one of his followers, and he is capable of granting them - Which would be the same as her casting Miracle. If he deems the request acceptable, it is granted. If not, he may need to have a talk with his least senior follower about what is and is not acceptable. If it's really not acceptable, that will be a very stern talking to.
I'm just going to point out that Tiamat is also capable of granting wishes. Just be prepared for her own "Spin" on the interpretation of the wish, if she she chooses to do so.
 
So, when Taylor eventually gets her 9th level spells (in about 600 - 700 years), any Wish she casts will go straight to Bahamut - as she is nominally one of his followers, and he is capable of granting them - Which would be the same as her casting Miracle. If he deems the request acceptable, it is granted. If not, he may need to have a talk with his least senior follower about what is and is not acceptable. If it's really not acceptable, that will be a very stern talking to.
So it's basically the same as Taylor picking up the magic phone and calling "Oh grandpa, this is your favourite graddaughter..."
 
It was noted in the old module Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, reprinted in GDQ 1-7 Queen of Spiders, about how being on another plane affected certain spells. I don't know if there has been any reprint of those, or if it was mentioned in another source book since then. Maybe Manual of the Planes?

Not in Manual of the Planes. It touches on changes, but they are limited to Normal, Enhanced, Reduced & Wild Magic changes typically. The book also has a nice list of spells that have planar or force aspects (for use on the ethereal), with a basic suggestion to the GM that they may wish to make some modifications or remove them if they go about modifying the planes themselves. It does have a small blurb on clerics in other realms, but mostly talking about whether their god would still answer prayers, not answer anything, delegate or just have them hi-jacked by "interested parties".

Really enjoying your story @Kryslin so please keep it up even with all the D&D arguments going on in the background. Heck, maybe the spells are going through Bahamut and Tiamat due to them keeping the supply of magic for Earth Bet going.
 
Speaking of wishes, our campaign just had us Wish "That every sapient shark in the world had magic potential and knew Prestidigitation". And the context behind it only makes it worse.
 
Quoting from the 3.5 SRD:

SRD said:
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
  • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it's of a prohibited school.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it's of a prohibited school.
  • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
  • Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
  • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
  • Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
  • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
  • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Material Component

When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

It says nothing about contacting another entity. You simply WISH and the almighty force of your own indomitable will (for sorcerers), or your knowledge of how the base code of reality functions (for wizards), forces reality to alter itself to your whim.

The fact that it costs Experience to use that spell indicates that you're effectively burning out part of your own soul to FORCE reality to bend to your whim. That some Outsiders, natives of the other planes of existance, get this as a spell-like ability without the XP cost indicates that their wills are hardened to the rigors of bending reality over their knees and making her their bitch.

(no offense to Bitch intended).

Miracle is the spell that contacts not just a powerful extraplanar entity, but EXPLICITLY the God that the cleric casting it worships.

From the SRD:

SRD said:
You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

A miracle can do any of the following things.
  • Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
  • Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
  • Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
  • Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
  • Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
  • Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
  • Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost

5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).
 
An Endbringer, for instance, will probably bring Bahamut himself. Which will probably give any Endbringer enough pause to bitch slap Eidolon and Nope! out of the fight.

Oh I soooo wan to see that.
Keep in that Akane's view of perversion is rather skewed,

I've seen several Fanfics where she never got The Talk, and so has no idea what perverted actually means.
Speaking of wishes, our campaign just had us Wish "That every sapient shark in the world had magic potential and knew Prestidigitation". And the context behind it only makes it worse.

Is it bad that I really want to know the context? :D
 
This is an interesting interpretation of Wish that I've never encountered before. There's nothing in the spell description about another entity being involved, so I always had the impression that Wish involved the arcane caster manipulating the weave to accomplish their desires. (A dangerous proposition for a mere mortal with a squishy mortal meat brain, thus the various downsides and limitations of Wish.)

Is there any canon source that talks about Wish this way, or is this your personal take?
For me (I'm a DM, Hello!), how I treat Wish depends on the source.

Player casting from their Spell Slot(s)? Path of less (not least) resistance, but tries to follow the spirit of the request (eg: ask for magic items, get a magic compass that points to the nearest of said magic items)

Shooting star? Path of least resistance, as spoken. Take too long or it's too complex and you get a fish teleported above your head instead.

Lower power? Monkey's Paw all the way.

Higher power? Spirit of the request so long as it is in line with said power's desires and means.

Faerie Dragon? (they have 1/day wish in my world) Path of least resistance and maximum amusement with minimum actual impact on the world. (they also waste it on stupid stuff like an apple to eat or something, said apple is teleported to them from off of a tree or out of someone's hand, they are also literally incapable of realizing that it's them that's causing their good fortune)
 
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Back in the days before Miracle was an available spell, every DM I ever played with, and I myself when DMing, treated a Wish Spell as an incantation that traded some of the caster's power, XP, and in first edition, Str Stat to the embodiment of Magic itself to have a stated effect be cast. For emulating a lower level spell, only the magic of a ninth level spell was needed, no loss of Str or XP (at least in first edition; I never had a wizard high enough level to cast a Wish in second edition, so didn't look that closely at the spell.) However, Magic being capricious and having an interest in preserving itself, Wishes that would tip the balance would be jinxed in a way to limit the damage they can cause.

Most of the time a Wish was granted by a legendary item or a magical being. For the first, the item would go through a separate being to parse the wish. So in all cases where a Wish Spell was not used to gain a Wish, there would be an interpreter that could twist the Wish to their heart's content in addition to Magic Itself keeping a Wish from doing too much damage.

Since Taylor is using spells granted by the Dragon Gods for both Arcane and Divine magic, then any Wish she would cast would go through her patrons. This just makes sense in her specific situation. That said, it will be centuries before she can cast a Wish or Miracle, though a less formal request for aid should be doable even now. No guarantee it would be granted, but she should be able to ask.....
 
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Speaking of wishes, our campaign just had us Wish "That every sapient shark in the world had magic potential and knew Prestidigitation". And the context behind it only makes it worse.

Is it bad that I really want to know the context? :D

No, it isn't. I want to know the context too!

Well Apparently DestinyPlayer and I hang out on the same Streamer Youtube Server, so I happen to know some context.

 
It was noted in the old module Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, reprinted in GDQ 1-7 Queen of Spiders, about how being on another plane affected certain spells. I don't know if there has been any reprint of those, or if it was mentioned in another source book since then. Maybe Manual of the Planes?

That's not quite correct.

From my Copy of Q1

Wish: If the thing wished for will upset the balance of the game (such as "permanently remove the fog" or "teleport our party to Lolth's lair"). Lolth will become greatly upset, and will send a group of four demons (two each of types III and IV) to attack the party. Prior to attacking, the demons will announce that "Lolth does not abide by wishes made in her domain". In all cases where the wish would affect Lolth directly (such as "I wish Lolth were destroyed"), the spell will have no effect and the demons will attack as before. No wish spell can ever directly affect the ruler of a plane that a caster is on. The DM should not allow any wishes which destroy the purpose of the module.
 
Worm Wrecking Wyrmlings
(Silliness written by the person that doesn't have to return to the lab for 24 hours.) *Kryslin, I beg your forgiveness in advance.*

Verechelen blinked as she flew across the sky. Ten seconds ago it had been cloudy, a typical Brockton Bay January day. By the looks of the people on the beach and the warmth of the sun on her back and wings, it was June or July here. She reached with her senses, trying to figure out where and when she was. The response she got back was confusing. This should be Brockton Bay, and she did see some landmarks that she recognized, but the lake Leviathan had left behind wasn't there, nor were the three block wide areas cleared around the effects of Bakuda's bombs. Had she traveled in time?

One quick spell told her no, that she'd somehow passed through a dozen dimensions. Home was sort of upleftorangetwelve from here. With that straightened out, she decided to land and spend a bit of time figuring out how things were different here. She banked and landed on the beach out of sight of people, transforming into her go to human shape, a black haired taller version of her mother. She grinned at a sudden thought. This Fugly's didn't know about her. She could get a free meal by ordering a Challenger.

Twenty minutes later she was had the burger and was eating it with one hand while flipping through PHO with the other hand. E-88, ABB, Merchants, all the same... She found the wards page and stopped. This Brockton Bay had a Dragon of their own. And it wasn't that poser Lung. She finished the burger almost absently as she read the thread about this Naurelin. She finished the fries and drink, got her picture taken and was out the door as quickly as she could.

Verechelen was walking down the Boardwalk, trying to figure out how to find the Ward when a shadow went by. Looking up she saw Kid Win and the very person she wanted to find fly overhead. Verechelen had a sudden evil idea, which she put down to spending too much time around Clockblocker.

Naurelin and Kid Win landed at the half way point of their route, stopping to make their radio call to the console. As Kid Win talked to Aegis, Naurelin heard a flapping soud. She turned around, and stopped, transfixed.

There was a small gold dragon flying clumsily toward her, not more than five feet long. It tried to land and ended up tumbling to a stop almost at her feet.

The hatchling looked up, cocked its head and called, "Mommy!"
 
For me, the best thing to do with them is basically go "X is preparing to cast a Wish/Miracle spell to do Y. Your job is to ensure it works/fails." And similar sorts of things. Its a tool to get the plot moving, not a spell the players can cast.
That can work well in the hands of a skilled GM... but far too often ends up either trivializing Wish or turning into GM railroading-by-fiat.

The former is, let's call it disappointing, and there generally are far better and more subtle ways for the GM to railroad.
 
That can work well in the hands of a skilled GM... but far too often ends up either trivializing Wish or turning into GM railroading-by-fiat.

The former is, let's call it disappointing, and there generally are far better and more subtle ways for the GM to railroad.
Ok, im not seeing how "this will change the course of the world, go stop it/go make sure it works" is trivializing it... as for railroading, im not seeing the issue. But then, i tend to prefer more goal oriented campaigns, snd "go stop/help X do Y" is about as basic as a goal as you can get.
 
(and you really don't want to see what one of [Tiamat's] 'Miracles' does).
Au contraire.
[Wish would connect her with Bahamut,] Which would be the same as her casting Miracle
Except more expensive, of course.
I believe the DMG for D&D tends to actually encourage the GM to twist wishes into a Monkey Paw wish. As for why bothering to have the spell? Sometimes you really don't have a choice. If a wizard can only learn spells found in spell books or that they painstakingly research (with low chances of success) like in 2nd edition, the GM has near complete control over what spells are learned. However with 3.5 and later editions arcane casters can just select spells from the book when they level. And if you've already approved the book in question (which you must have done with the Players Handbook) then the first clue you might have that they chose Wish or Limited Wish is when they first cast it. And that's not considering that even without knowing those two spells a magic crafter in 3.5 or Pathfinder can still make a ring of three wishes. Once the crafter's Spellcraft skill is high enough that ranks+10 is enough
AD&D had wizards rolling for what spells they got naturally. Also, I believe that not needing to know spells if you have enough [spell]craft ranks is a PF introduction as you don't need to make [spell]craft rolls to enchant items in 3.5.

Fascinatingly, AD&D1's Wish doesn't cost XP, but inflicts a strength penalty and requires 2d4 days bed rest if not used for a cheap wish, of which there are three (and only three).
 
There is a tap on your shoulder. When you turn around, there is the entire Orcish pantheon, looking rather upset. "Gruumsh would like a word," a rather swarmy orc says, "Now." :)

(The campaign would end shortly thereafter.)

I'm not approving it. I've had a group try just what I described though. The actual wording was "I wish every orc in the world was wiped out." This was how I'd discovered that someone in the group had a Ring of 3 Wishes (that now had one charge left). The party was high fiving each other and celebrating. They were doing so right up until I described them all feeling lethargic in the extreme. They thought the wish was clear, kill all orcs. What the wish did was Exhaust all orcs, half orcs, and anyone with even distant orc ancestry (such as the adventuring party who all came from a village that was originally founded by half orcs and humans they had married).

EDIT: I found out the ring was one they had crafted earlier in the campaign, but they had lied about what they were making. They had told me they were making something that had the same craft DC. The first wish had been used earlier because the party realized they had forgotten to restock on travel rations, and the ranger kept botching his hunting checks. That wish was "Man, I wish we had more supplies". Afterwords the ranger did start making his hunting checks well enough to feed the party, so I hadn't noticed the party had used that wish to restock themselves with 3 weeks worth of food. The "wipe out all orcs" wish was a lot more overt, obviously. The party had been facing mostly orcs for a few sessions (for justified reasons). And while they were invested in the campaign, they were tired of fighting orcs. Amusingly, the next session they were going to be starting to face the masters of those orcs... A red dragon and her undead minions.
 
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Which I'm ignoring, mostly, so I can write the next section. :)

Makes for a bit of relaxation after getting 15 year old hardware up and running with Ubuntu Linux. (That was surprisingly easy, it's the tab crashing fest that is firefox...)
 
I'm not approving it. I've had a group try just what I described though. The actual wording was "I wish every orc in the world was wiped out." This was how I'd discovered that someone in the group had a Ring of 3 Wishes (that now had one charge left). The party was high fiving each other and celebrating. They were doing so right up until I described them all feeling lethargic in the extreme. They thought the wish was clear, kill all orcs. What the wish did was Exhaust all orcs, half orcs, and anyone with even distant orc ancestry (such as the adventuring party who all came from a village that was originally founded by half orcs and humans they had married).
There is, of course, the main issue of using a Wish to make global changes like this; at least one Power will be able to use a similar or greater effect to undo the spell, and usually be able to since restoring the balance is usually one of the few overt actions the Powers can do without violating any treaties. This also will have the effect of having a Power become rather vexed with the one making the Wish, and having just enough leeway to make their remaining life downright miserable....

In general, calling down the attention of a Power is not a good thing for any mortal.

I found out the ring was one they had crafted earlier in the campaign, but they had lied about what they were making. They had told me they were making something that had the same craft DC.

A Player that lies about his equipment to a DM is just asking for a summery ruling against them. In this case, you would have been fully justified to say the item fails to grant a Wish on the grounds that it is not a Ring of Three Wishes, it is whatever they told you it originally was, and then dock them three weeks of rations. The DM has final say on what a player may or may not make and/or have, and may overturn the rules if needed to keep the game running.
 
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