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    • Not touching Ward canon. I don't have a cattle prod long enough to touch that mess.

    From what I read on Brandish's entry in the Worm wiki is that yes, Victoria was born out of wedlock. She and Mark had known each other for 20 years, so it could be implied that Vicky is the result of teen-aged shenanigans, but Mark and Carol are still her biological parents. The wedding had to wait until after Carol got done with law school. Note that Carol's family had to be fairly affluent, and Mark probably had to spend some time raising Vicky.

    What all this means is that Carol has had a very busy 7 years from getting pregnant in high school, to having the child, and then having to juggle raising the child and going to law school, and being a parahuman on top of that... Yeesh. I think if Carol took some time to depressurize, she might just explode when the valve gets cracked open...

    Re: Good Samaritan laws - Yes, Taylor would be protected by them. She would need Mark's permission to heal him, which could be done without Carol's input. The problem with power based urges is that the power will eventually push them onto the user again if they ignore them, and Carol's been ignoring hers.

    Re: Wish and Miracle - I try to avoid these, at least within a story. Yes, they are a way of getting things done on a large scale, and if the Power that Be are feeling generous... It might happen. As of this moment, only two beings present can grant a Wish / Miracle - Bahamut and Tiamat, and Tiamat's Wishes comes with a steep price (and you really don't want to see what one of her 'Miracles' does). Given that she is trying to be 'not-evil' (aka somewhat good), taking souls in exchange for a wish isn't something she wants to do. She'll do it, but she will make very sure that the one asking knows exactly what is going to happen afterwards, and that it won't be very pretty.

    Taylor has an option, which will probably come up soon enough : Divine Intervention. The level of intervention will depend on the threat. An Endbringer, for instance, will probably bring Bahamut himself. Which will probably give any Endbringer enough pause to bitch slap Eidolon and Nope! out of the fight.
     
  • Informational
    • Kryslin said:
    Taylor has an option, which will probably come up soon enough : Divine Intervention. The level of intervention will depend on the threat. An Endbringer, for instance, will probably bring Bahamut himself. Which will probably give any Endbringer enough pause to bitch slap Eidolon and Nope! out of the fight.
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    Bonus points if that's done to Behemoth in the region of old Mesopotamia...
     
    Jacen1 said:
    One fanfic author described his old D&D settings by mentioning that the God with dominion over Wish spells in those worlds is a CN Trickster God of Mischief. Most DMs don't bother to define things out that well, but in general, when a poorly defined Wish is granted it will be in a manor that is most amusing to someone other then the one making the Wish.
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    But do you know what would happen if the wish was used for the intent of having it go off in a rather-amusing/slightly-unwanted way that the user was gonna laugh at Anyway? (The level/amount of depending on the results of the wish's... uh, derailment)
     
    Avniel said:
    But do you know what would happen if the wish was used for the intent of having it go off in a rather-amusing/slightly-unwanted way that the user was gonna laugh at Anyway? (The level/amount of depending on the results of the wish's... uh, derailment)
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    In my current campaign, our Sorcerer once used a throwaway wish (we needed to take a long rest regardless, and he had an unspent 9th level spellslot) to turn the entire population of the city we were at into catgirls.

    The city was promptly on fire in a few hours.
     
    Lycanthromancer said:
    Fixed that for you.

    Carol obviously despises Amy and wants her out of her life. The fact that she hasn't turned Amy out on the street has more to do with the fact that she'd get splattered against a wall by the law and probably lose the daughter she does love than it has to do with her own feelings on the matter.
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    Sorry guess I should have clarified. I was talking about Taylor using her powers to heal Mark. :facepalm:
     
    FaerieKnight79 said:
    I don't think that's quite the tone the PRT want. Then again, Tia used a variation with Miss Militia.



    Wouldn't it be hilariously ironic if this also depowered every parahuman in the city because their power is being granted by a parasitic entity?
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    That wouldn't be the funny bit. The funny bit would be Mannequin being returned to a Mark 1 Human without all his improvements. Ditto Bonesaw.

    Silvris said:
    Read through the discourse on wish spells and can only agree. There is a reason it is basically discribed as "Politely request something from the GM and pray to god he is in a mood to allow it".
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    Only if your GM is an asshole. The GM is only supposed to use a Wish to screw over the character if and only if the character gets greedy and wishes for too much.

    I despise GMs who think that all wishes have to be twisted against the wisher. Why even bother having the spell then?
     
    Avniel said:
    But do you know what would happen if the wish was used for the intent of having it go off in a rather-amusing/slightly-unwanted way that the user was gonna laugh at Anyway? (The level/amount of depending on the results of the wish's... uh, derailment)
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    Then the wisher gets to be in on the joke. After all, just because it will be funny to someone else doesn't mean it can't be funny to them, to....
     
    Jacen1 said:
    So, @FaerieKnight79, in the context of that story, does that mean a Wish to avert a disaster, cure a pandemic, or help a great many people will likely be granted in a way that least screws over the selfless (or at least, benevolent) wisher? Say, a wish that an incoming tsunami would not strike, or a forest fire would be extinguished, or that an erupting volcano would stop erupting, for instance? After all, even though these wishes would benefit the one making the wish, they aren't exactly selfish in that they would also benefit everyone in the area...
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    The original story, The Foul Sorcerer, doesn't too much with the base premise. It merely sets up for the events surrounding Kuno Tatawaki not paying attention when a djinn explains the rules then making a set of wishes which seriously piss off the djinn. Then again, it was written mostly to get a bad pun out of my head. I took the time to write an actual story rather then just a pun setup, but it was still mostly written because of the pun. The sequel, Jean Genie, goes into a lot more depth due to being a multi-chapter and more serious story. The sequel explores some of the consequences of Kuno's wishes, as well as the idea that djinn (and wish granters in general) might be omni-potent (or at least close to it) but they are still limited by their knowledge, and the lack of knowledge can be catastrophic when granting a wish. Fair warning, Jean Genie takes a while to describe an outfit which pisses off Akane for being "perverted". Keep in that Akane's view of perversion is rather skewed, because the outfit is tame by 1920's standards.

    sdwood said:
    Only if your GM is an asshole. The GM is only supposed to use a Wish to screw over the character if and only if the character gets greedy and wishes for too much.

    I despise GMs who think that all wishes have to be twisted against the wisher. Why even bother having the spell then?
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    I believe the DMG for D&D tends to actually encourage the GM to twist wishes into a Monkey Paw wish. As for why bothering to have the spell? Sometimes you really don't have a choice. If a wizard can only learn spells found in spell books or that they painstakingly research (with low chances of success) like in 2nd edition, the GM has near complete control over what spells are learned. However with 3.5 and later editions arcane casters can just select spells from the book when they level. And if you've already approved the book in question (which you must have done with the Players Handbook) then the first clue you might have that they chose Wish or Limited Wish is when they first cast it. And that's not considering that even without knowing those two spells a magic crafter in 3.5 or Pathfinder can still make a ring of three wishes. Once the crafter's Spellcraft skill is high enough that ranks+10 is enough to hit the creation DC there's not a whole lot you can do to stop them from making such an item either.

    These are horrifically unbalancing spells. In fact, they can outright break the game. Which is why the GM is encouraged to treat them as monkey paw wishes.
     
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    I've always preferred to treat Wish and Miracle more as plot devices than player spell options.
     
    Kryslin said:
    As of this moment, only two beings present can grant a Wish / Miracle -
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    Thing is, no deity grants the spell Wish. It's strictly an Arcane spell, thus based off the caster's will and energy, or the power of the artifact granting the spell. You speak your wish while pumping power into the words and the world is remade.

    The problem is intent vs results can be tricky since how the world folds to accommodate your intent can have unexpected results. Asking for too much can make the "unexpected" part really bad.

    DMs just have a bad habit of wanting to get their kicks playing Asshole Genie, screwing every single wish over when that level of twisting should be reserved for wishes granted from an outside source or players abusing the privilege.

    And, yeah, that's how what was encouraged in old-school Gygax-run D&D, but Gygax was a "player death conga" kinda DM and wrote the books accordingly.

    There's a reason 3.5e is the one that really took off, and it's because they changed things to empower players and give them a more "protagonist" style experience... including safer use of Wish, which has only been made safer and more limited in 5e.
     
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    Wish, and to a lesser degree Limited Wish are game breakingly unbalanced, as I mentioned. There's nothing to stop someone from using a Wish spell to, for example, wipe out all orcs in the world. Well, nothing except the fact that the GM is suppose to treat wishes like a Monkey Paw. Sure there are some uses which are safer then others. Using a Wish to cast a divine spell for example is safer then using it to become the ruler of an island nation.

    Then again, accidental wishes can be rather amusing. In one Pathfinder campaign I'm in we found a magic ring. Our sorc tried to identify it, and concluded it's a RIng of Sustenance. It was misidentified, and actually was a ring of 3 wishes. We learned this after the person wearing it accidently said "Man, I wish we didn't have to walk the entire way" after our horses got killed in an ambush. We were heading to the far border of the kingdom we were in. Cue the GM snickering, us panicking, and suddenly we could only move at a full run. After we realized what had happened the GM revealed that the identify check had failed really badly.
     
    3.5 had a long list of ways to use wish; the GM was only supposed to monkey paw the wish when the user got greedy and or stupid with it.

    Had a player once, that had a ring of wish that was a family heirloom, that you could only use once a year.

    He was 5th level, and promptly used it to wish for a +5 vorpal flaming ghost blade.

    Our GM have it to him, complete with the owner holding it.
     
    Just A Dude said:
    Thing is, no deity grants the spell Wish. It's strictly an Arcane spell, thus based off the caster's will and energy, or the power of the artifact granting the spell. You speak your wish while pumping power into the words and the world is remade.
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    Please note that while this post mentions various real world religion and philosophical groups/families, it is not an invitation for religious debate or discussion.

    Wish, when cast, puts the caster in contact with beings who have the power to grant the request. For instance, casting Wish on plane 66 of the Abyss gives you a hotline to Lolth, who will only grant the request if it furthers her plans and desires. Good luck bringing back that Paladin... In fact, Lolth may drop a demon into the body anyway, and let the caster think he was successful.

    There are a few beings answering such on Earth Bet : There is the Creator, the unmoved mover. Per that definition, nothing a mortal or immortal being can do will move him from his inscrutable purpose. Note that I'm not giving them a name. In fact, my assigning them a gender may or may not be accurate.

    The various monotheistic deities of Zoroastrianism / Mazdayasna / Abrahamic faiths, who may or may not be the same being. He doesn't answer those. Likewise, his opposite may not answer those either, though he might send a minion to garner another soul for his own ends. However, he won't grant them either, only appear to, and it will never be something that will benefit a great number of people unless they can grab their souls, too.

    Some of the old gods may still be kicking around. They still have some worshipers, though they no longer have the power they once did, and therefore, are in no position to grant such boons as stopping a tsunami or dropping a Greater Restoration on the entire New England area, unless the ocean is specifically within their domain. So, hypothetically, Grounder10's version of Taylor, when she arrives at that point in her development, could get a request to stop a tsunami. Whether she grants it, that's up to her.

    That leaves Elder Beings (which includes Taylor Varga's Greater Powers and good ol' Cthulhu and his ilk), any of the noble Djinn, Ifrit, Marids, and Dao still kicking around, and the draconic deities, whose power is not dependent on their followers. Also note that there is a near mythical phone number, impossible to consistently dial, that is said to connect to someone who can grant you a wish.

    So, when Taylor eventually gets her 9th level spells (in about 600 - 700 years), any Wish she casts will go straight to Bahamut - as she is nominally one of his followers, and he is capable of granting them - Which would be the same as her casting Miracle. If he deems the request acceptable, it is granted. If not, he may need to have a talk with his least senior follower about what is and is not acceptable. If it's really not acceptable, that will be a very stern talking to.
     
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    Verthandi's still kicking around and able to grant wishes if you can dial her? Interesting. Do she and her sisters call Tyr Daddy, or are they more independent than that in this setting?
     
    Kryslin said:
    Also note that there is a near mythical phone number, impossible to randomly dial
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    Do you mean impossible to consistently dial, here? Because I seem to recall it got called at random a few times. :p

    Also, while I don't want to bring up actual religious issues, I should mention that a.) it's 'Zoroastrianism', not 'Zoroastarianism', and b.) I believe the preferred term is Mazdayasna anyway.
     
    Kryslin said:
    Please note that while this post mentions various real world religion and philosophical groups/families, it is not an invitation for religious debate or discussion.

    Wish, when cast, puts the caster in contact with beings who have the power to grant the request. For instance, casting Wish on plane 66 of the Abyss gives you a hotline to Lolth, who will only grant the request if it furthers her plans and desires. Good luck bringing back that Paladin... In fact, Lolth may drop a demon into the body anyway, and let the caster think he was successful.

    There are a few beings answering such on Earth Bet : There is the Creator, the unmoved mover. Per that definition, nothing a mortal or immortal being can do will move him from his inscrutable purpose. Note that I'm not giving them a name. In fact, my assigning them a gender may or may not be accurate.

    The various monotheistic deities of Zoroastrianism / Mazdayasna / Abrahamic faiths, who may or may not be the same being. He doesn't answer those. Likewise, his opposite may not answer those either, though he might send a minion to garner another soul for his own ends. However, he won't grant them either, only appear to, and it will never be something that will benefit a great number of people unless they can grab their souls, too.

    Some of the old gods may still be kicking around. They still have some worshipers, though they no longer have the power they once did, and therefore, are in no position to grant such boons as stopping a tsunami or dropping a Greater Restoration on the entire New England area, unless the ocean is specifically within their domain. So, hypothetically, Grounder10's version of Taylor, when she arrives at that point in her development, could get a request to stop a tsunami. Whether she grants it, that's up to her.

    That leaves Elder Beings (which includes Taylor Varga's Greater Powers and good ol' Cthulhu and his ilk), any of the noble Djinn, Ifrit, Marids, and Dao still kicking around, and the draconic deities, whose power is not dependent on their followers. Also note that there is a near mythical phone number, impossible to consistently dial, that is said to connect to someone who can grant you a wish.

    So, when Taylor eventually gets her 9th level spells (in about 600 - 700 years), any Wish she casts will go straight to Bahamut - as she is nominally one of his followers, and he is capable of granting them - Which would be the same as her casting Miracle. If he deems the request acceptable, it is granted. If not, he may need to have a talk with his least senior follower about what is and is not acceptable. If it's really not acceptable, that will be a very stern talking to.
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    This is an interesting interpretation of Wish that I've never encountered before. There's nothing in the spell description about another entity being involved, so I always had the impression that Wish involved the arcane caster manipulating the weave to accomplish their desires. (A dangerous proposition for a mere mortal with a squishy mortal meat brain, thus the various downsides and limitations of Wish.)

    Is there any canon source that talks about Wish this way, or is this your personal take?
     
    Kryslin said:
    Wish, when cast, puts the caster in contact with beings who have the power to grant the request. For instance, casting Wish on plane 66 of the Abyss gives you a hotline to Lolth, who will only grant the request if it furthers her plans and desires. Good luck bringing back that Paladin... In fact, Lolth may drop a demon into the body anyway, and let the caster think he was successful.
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    That's miracle. Wish is agnostic.
     
    nemo1685 said:
    Do you mean impossible to consistently dial, here? Because I seem to recall it got called at random a few times. :p

    Also, while I don't want to bring up actual religious issues, I should mention that a.) it's 'Zoroastrianism', not 'Zoroastarianism', and b.) I believe the preferred term is Mazdayasna anyway.
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    Corrections noted and made, thank you.

    TaliesinSkye said:
    This is an interesting interpretation of Wish that I've never encountered before. There's nothing in the spell description about another entity being involved, so I always had the impression that Wish involved the arcane caster manipulating the weave to accomplish their desires. (A dangerous proposition for a mere mortal with a squishy mortal meat brain, thus the various downsides and limitations of Wish.)

    Is there any canon source that talks about Wish this way, or is this your personal take?
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    It was noted in the old module Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, reprinted in GDQ 1-7 Queen of Spiders, about how being on another plane affected certain spells. I don't know if there has been any reprint of those, or if it was mentioned in another source book since then. Maybe Manual of the Planes?

    arromdee said:
    Carol telling Amy to do more hospital work is fanon.
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    I personally don't care. However, Amy got her gnawing sense of guilt from someplace.
    An adoptive mother who doesn't trust her, who thinks she'll turn evil? Sounds like a pretty good source of that to me.
     
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