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Scaling Up

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Kitty S. Lillian said:
I always felt pretty sure that's not the correct reading of the rules. That "at the indicated speed" clause makes it ambiguous as that's true of every form of movement--all speeds get reduced by encumbrance. But, apparently, that's how the rules are:
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I've been doing some research, and RAW is unclear. I've been unable to find any clarifications of that rule you quoted online, by my own interpretation of it is that "you can't maintain that speed while encumbered by a heavy or medium load", -especially- as they mention that wearing armor doesn't necessarily constitute more than a Light Load in the same paragraph:

Monster Manual 1 said:
A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load; see Carrying Capacity, page 161 of the Player's Handbook. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)
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Ergo, to my mind, that means that something like a dragon _CAN_ fly with a medium or heavy load, you just need to calculate how much its fly speed would be reduced, as per the normal "reduced speed for encumbrance" rules.

Those seem to indicate that a dragon like Hunts-The-Ice, (which the OP has quoted as having a Light Load capacity of 200 pounds) could likely take off and carry up to 600 pounds at once, though he'd be struggling to maintain airspeed. His 200ft fly speed (for an Adult White Dragon) would be reduced to a mere 140ft, which would be above his minimum forward speed of "half" (100ft), but not by much, and he'd be really struggling to keep that up.

Disclaimer: I can't recall if the OP has stated if Hunts-The-Ice has a strength-boosting item, but if so, his fly speed would go down with his age category. I picked Adult for this example, because that's the category that has a Strength score of 23, which is required to have a Light Load of 200 pounds.
 
Vyrexuviel said:
I've been doing some research, and RAW is unclear. I've been unable to find any clarifications of that rule you quoted online, by my own interpretation of it is that "you can't maintain that speed while encumbered by a heavy or medium load"
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Other movespeeds lack the clause (but encumbrance rules note that all move types get reduced).

If you don't throw it out with the rest of the garbage (contradicting, for instance, the "medium armor does not necessarily mean a medium load") , Races of the Dragon implies it with the "Normal [without feat]" section of the Reinforced Wings feat (or its upgrade Heavyweight Wings): "Normal: Flying creatures can't fly in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load."

Not the only thoughtless general-system-affecting implications that book has (graft system, too, suffers for it).
 
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On Dragons, Flight, and Carrying things.
  • Informational
    • Hunts-The-Ice does not have any strength boosting items. I'm more than willing to give him above average strength and constitution, though.

    Ok, I've been using the Draconomicon 3.5e to determine what they can carry and fly and how fast various Dragons can fly while doing so (pgs 136-137):

    Pg 137 States : "Light Load or No Load: Dragons, like other flying creatures, can only fly when carrying no more than a light load. The two columns beneath this line give the dragon's overland movement when it is not carrying enough weight to prevent it from flying. "

    -Hunts is a Juvenile White, and is Size M. He can carry around 130 lbs before being unable to fly (assuming average strength) (Draconomicon 3.5e, pg 137). Even operating at the limits of his carrying capacity, he still manages 30 mph in the air. He could, conceivably, have Vista as a Rider without too much difficulty (Assuming Vista weighs less than 100 lbs, and the tack and harness weighs less than 30 lbs.

    -Panacea is a Young Adult Silver, and is size L. She can carry Vicky, Crystal and her Aunt Sarah, or her Uncle Neil and her father, provided people plus tack and harness weighs less than a total of 600 lbs.

    -Naurelin is a Young Adult Gold, and is size H. She can carry (if she could someone manage it) 10 White Dragons of Hunts' Size - Her load before being unable to fly is 3,680 lbs. Hunts weighs ≈ 350 lbs. Naurelin could probably manage Armsmaster, Miss Militia, and a PRT officer with an XM101 minigun and 1 minute's worth of ammo. Or, 6 x 500 lbs / 225kg free fall iron bombs, plus the harness to carry and release them. Or enough containment foam grenades to foam Medhall, top to bottom.

    -Kurya is a Great Wyrm++(effectively an Epic Great Wyrm) Gold Dragon, and is size G+ (Her dragon form makes Kaiju from Taylor Varga look tiny). It doesn't matter how much it weighs, she curses at gravity in Russian and Draconic, and she flies off with it anyway, gravity being sufficiently frightened to not bother. She'd be hard pressed, but I suspect The Rig is within her lift capabilities.

    So while Hunts was a little slow in the air, he managed to get the large chunk of fish to where he needed it to go. Also, as the examples show, size (amongst dragons, anyway) matters.
     
  • Informational
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    Bedtime Stories for Wyrmlings
  • Sidestory
    • Bedtime Stories for Wyrmlings
    How Dragons Fly
    ​
    Long, long ago, when the first world created by the Gods was yet young, the Firstborn of all dragons decided it was tired of walking everywhere.

    "Gravity," it said, "loosen your grip upon me so that I might travel through the sky."

    "I cannot do as you ask," said Gravity. "I have been charged by the Gods with keeping heavy things from floating off the surface of the world. No matter the size of your wings, you are too large to fly as the birds do."

    "I see," rumbled the Firstborn. In a flash it was upon Gravity, who was foolishly standing too close, and ripped off one of Gravity's arms.

    "AUGH!" cried Gravity, and fled from the Firstborn in terror. Even to this day, Gravity refuses to get too close to any of the Firstborn's many descendants for fear of losing the only arm it has left.

    And that is why Gravity can now only pull, and why dragons can fly no matter how large we grow.

    So remember, dearest little one, if Gravity ever changes its mind, just go for the other arm.
     
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  • Sidestory
    • Kryslin said:
    She'd be hard pressed, but I suspect The Rig is within her lift capabilities.
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    The Only reason she'd have a problem with carrying off the Rig is that it is securely anchored to the seafloor, by Tinker tech.

    Watches As the dragon flies off with the rig and a massive chunk of the attached seafloor.
    ...
     
    Itsune said:
    The Only reason she'd have a problem with carrying off the Rig is that it is securely anchored to the seafloor, by Tinker tech.

    Watches As the dragon flies off with the rig and a massive chunk of the attached seafloor.
    ...
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    Yeah that just about sums it up. If it's not anchored in the crust, Kurya can probably lift it. If it is, then Hlal would probably help just for the looks alone.
     
    macdjord said:
    Have you read the Temeraire novels?
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    Yes, yes I have. The earliest ones are the best, IMHO.

    However, different Dragons, different rules.

    Interesting to note that Naurelin might be able to lift the rig as well, since she can remove the effect of Gravity on it with her para-whatever power. It now weighs nothing, and some Transmute Rock to Mud, and up it comes... :)
     
    I want to see her lay out and sun herself on the forcefield. That high and out in the bay, away from any tall buildings, its got to be the best place for Dragons to sun themselves.

    Bonus points if Amy and Hunts-The-Ice join her.
     
    Ravenwood240 said:
    I want to see her lay out and sun herself on the forcefield. That high and out in the bay, away from any tall buildings, its got to be the best place for Dragons to sun themselves.

    Bonus points if Amy and Hunts-The-Ice join her.
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    "Naurelin, Console. Could you please get off the force field? We need to take it down to let flights in, and the techs don't want you crushing the control tower."

    "*Dragon snoring sounds*"

    "Naurelin!"
     
    There's a feat that allows you to fly with a Medium or possibly Heavy load, I think it's in Draconomicon, but I could be wrong.
     
    Kryslin said:
    -Panacea is a Young Adult Silver, and is size L. She can carry Vicky, Crystal and her Aunt Sarah, or her Uncle Neil and her father, provided people plus tack and harness weighs less than a total of 600 lbs.
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    Vicky is actually a powerful flyer in her own right, which leads to the amusing conclusion that rather than being a passenger riding on Panacea she'd work better as a booster engine. Get a pair of harnesses and some strong cable to hook them together and they'd be all set.
     
    Vyrexuviel said:
    Disclaimer: I can't recall if the OP has stated if Hunts-The-Ice has a strength-boosting item, but if so, his fly speed would go down with his age category. I picked Adult for this example, because that's the category that has a Strength score of 23, which is required to have a Light Load of 200 pounds
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    I think you forgot to add in the Quadriped Multiplier when making your adjustments.
     
    I think you might be under estimating Kaiju's size, she's more than 90ft tall, and could probably convince someone that the Tarrasque is her younger brother (it's only 70). That's bigger than even standard Great Wyrm Golds.

    Some dragons might be bigger than her, but nothing you'd find on the material plane.
     
    Yeffaros said:
    I think you might be under estimating Kaiju's size, she's more than 90ft tall, and could probably convince someone that the Tarrasque is her younger brother (it's only 70). That's bigger than even standard Great Wyrm Golds.

    Some dragons might be bigger than her, but nothing you'd find on the material plane.
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    I don't think so.

    Kurya and Sonngrad are not your typical Great Wyrm gold dragons; Kurya is older than most of civilization on Earth Bet, Sonngrad is her junior by a couple centuries.
    Both are considered Colossal+ size; overall length, they're shorter than Kaiju, however, when sitting on their haunches, they could look her in the eye, and have a nice discussion about why all the humans are getting very nervous, except for Danny, the dockworkers, and the local Protectorate...

    While not demigods, they are effectively immortal, and it should be noted, still able to have children. Naichi's only 90 years old. Granted, it's only a single egg at a time, but Naichi could have an annoying little sibling in a decade...

    Also, should it come down to a confrontation between the two, it would probably come down to this:

    Kaiju : Care to discuss the matter?
    Kurya: Sure. <Create food and drink> Care for a snack?
     
    Possibly because I'm not a native English speaker, but I know that as cardinal mark, i.e., as opposite to ordinal numerals.
    Cardinal numbering: #1 = "number one".
    Ordinal numbering: 1st​ = "first".
     
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    # Octothorp (OED) ( Number Sign, Pound Sign, Hashtag, Sharp, Pounds, etc.)

    When used as a prefix, it means a cardinal Number, or Hashtag. ie, #1, #Dragons, #Twitterisforthebirds, etc.
    When used as a postfix, it usually means pounds, a shorthand for lbs., ie 150# (North American Usage)
    In musical notation, it means raise the pitch a half step, ie, C#

    I suspect there are other, more esoteric uses of the thing...
     
    I kind of get the impression that the pound usage mostly went the way of the dodo with Twitter, but the phone company still calls it a pound sign.
     
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