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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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We will still credit the Brotherhood of Drom as appropriate with this and we won't be hiding our own contributions for political reasons. Plus, this one will bring more of our political enemies to Khazagar to be impressed, convinced and educated.

[X] [Chain:]: Release it when Khazagar is completed and opened to the world
Increase Khazagar Attendance. Upgrade Legendary Deed Chainwright to Mythical Deed
Enticing people to come to Khazagar will do no more to harm you than its own impact has, and would force those who would rather not be there to be there if they care for the chain more than otherwise, something you may actually want? The two shall be tied, invariably, but it will hopefully be to your benefit. To release it any earlier is folly and stirs an already roiling pot.
 
soulcake said:
- He is making his own institution because he realizes the only way to counter your influence with Khazagar is something equally impressive.
-- He is very aware of what it will do, and hates that he's doing it.
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Err... Hm. So then Vragni is aware of how horrible that sounds to the wider runesmiths in general when the instigating reason for the formation of his own institution seems to be based on countering Snorri's influence with Khazagar. Especially with Dwarves and their pride in their craft doing exactly what it is meant to do over a long looooong periods of time.
 
TimEd said:
Why not both? Because that is what it is. And it's not like picking Khazagar isn't also hiding behind the rhuniversity to hide the fact that we have "already" (or in a relatively short amount of time) discovered the improvement to what we presented in front of Thungni thus proving that what we presented not only was incomplete, but more importantly that the solution wasn't that far off and that we never bothered to finish it before presenting. That's basically the crux of Snorri's issue, the rest is us gaming the results of Snorri's eventual decision towards this slightly embarrassing conundrum.
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Runesmiths sitting on newly developed runes for decades, centuries, or even forever while considering the consequences of giving people items using them or teaching other runesmiths is the standard, expected process. It's a political motivation here, but it's such standard practice that no one who would have motive to criticise him for delaying.

Using Khazagar as a distraction to release the runes earlier than he otherwise would is also political. However; being political isn't a problem. It's the way people and organisations work together. Here, we'd be being political in a good cause, allowing us to release the Chainforger 2.0 in a way that rebounds to our and others benefit.

Note that Snorri being metaphysically strengthened by performing a Mythical Deed is a good thing for the dwarves that strengthens them as a whole. Diluting the credit means that the dwarves don't get the benefit of a more effective runelord for Snorri's remaining lifetime, while also getting the benefit of 'cheap' gromril chain earlier.
 
Neat John said:
All I see in option two is Snorri hideing behind the Brotherhood to avoid the political consequences of making an inproved Chaninforger.
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Snorri will also be hiding behind Khazagar if he picks that option. That is quite literally the main point of this choice after all.

soulcake said:
Still, you couldn't see yourself holding on to this discovery for another century just to keep a few feathers unruffled. Your immediate thought is to wait until Khazagar is complete, cushioning the blow by tying it to Khazagar. There'd be talk about you withholding that information to just those who come to Khazagar, but the Runes and methods you were already teaching would be part of the endeavour, adding yet another thing along those lines was expected by everyone regardless of their opinion on your creation.

On the other hand, you cannot deny that this was only possible thanks to the efforts of the Brotherhood. You could release the process now, but under the aegis of the Brotherhood as a whole. You don't think it would take much effort to get the others to agree, it would certainly raise the prestige of the organization. While it wouldn't completely erase the hit, by having someone other than you, if affiliated with you, releasing the method would also weaken the blowback.
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Alratan said:
The Brotherhod as an abstract entity does. The Brotherhood is a secret society that doesn't publish it's membership list, so the individual members of the Brotherhood get no credit shared with them, as basically no one else knows they're members.
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That's the whole point though. Dron as a secret society won't care if their individuals don't get credit. You don't join Dron for prestige, you join it for the potential/collating of results along with adding one more mind to solving the unsolved issues. After all, they'd still get access to the information and benefit from the resulting effects of the research that gets done (reminder that completing this gave progress to Rune Metal Pt. 5). Dron just get's a boost to prestige, which is what we're horse trading with here. On if Khazagar or Dron would be most beneficial to getting the prestige.

Alratan said:
Here, we'd be being political in a good cause
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as long as you are aware that this works for BOTH choices. Picking Dron is ALSO being political "for a good cause". This is also obviously the start of the slippery slope to political nonsense that Yorri was worried about. No two ways about it.
 
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So I was thinking as I fell asleep last night that the Rule of Three seems to be really powerful and looks to apply to more than just runes. Or at least when runes are part of the process in some step it enhances everything else.

So... Forging + Enchanting + Runes = ?

Mastercraft forging for the base material to work on, runes are our specialty, then enchanting with the winds. Not just three parts going into the item, but three people too. It might be even stronger if they were three different races too, but I don't think we have any master crafter Brana yet? Although we might on second thought if any tried learning from a dwarf yet. I'd bet its at least been attempted?
 
TimEd said:
Snorri will also be hiding behind Khazagar if he picks that option. That is quite literally the main point of this choice after all.
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That is a good point about how they are both political, but he would not be hideing behind Khazagar. People would still know that Snorri was the inventor of the new Chainforger thus still getting criticism, just less, while with the Brotherhood option no one will know that Snorri was responsible.

And at the end of the day I am much less forgiving too the Brotherhood option because it would be Snorri deliberately omitting relevant information to shield himself from political criticism.
 
TimEd said:
as long as you are aware that this works for BOTH choices. Picking Dron is ALSO being political "for a good cause". This is also obviously the start of the slippery slope to political nonsense that Yorri was worried about. No two ways about it.
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Yes, but a less good cause, as one choice denies the Karaz Ankor a Runelord empowered by an extra mythical deed, which I judge to be of higher value than getting cheaper gromril chain production a few decades earlier.

Note that Snorri would not be hiding behind Khazagar in that option. He's using Khazagar as a giant distraction while taking full credit and responsibility.
 
To be fair, the Brotherhood option isn't bad I think.

I just don't value the things it provides as much as putting 110% into the Runeversity
 
Neat John said:
That is a good point about how they are both political, but he would not be hideing behind Khazagar. People would still know that Snorri was the inventor of the new Chainforger thus still getting criticism, just less, while with the Brotherhood option no one will know that Snorri was responsible.
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So? Snorri doesn't give a shit about taking credit, else he'd hoard the knowledge for a century or so to get full credit and zero issues to himself.

Neat John said:
And at the end of the day I am much less forgiving too the Brotherhood option because it would be Snorri deliberately omitting relevant information to shield himself from political criticism.
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And again, this applies to both. He'd just be omitting Dron's help in discovering this solution to gromril chain. And again, this omission (on both sides) has already been addressed by soulcake.

soulcake said:
So the brotherhood thing.

Taking credit is running with the logic that the debt for the research you collected was paid for, in favour, in gold, even in the threat of pans to the head by curmudgeonly Valayans, and focusing more on the fact that it was still ultimately made possible from collaboration enabling a single Runesmith to do more than they could alone. Which is what Khazagar is meant to do. Implication fairly obvious.

Emphasizing the Brotherhood means including Snorri, because he is a member of the Brotherhood, its just saying the Brotherhood created a better method and individual parts came together under one of them. The Brotherhood found this neat trick on their way to solving the Rule of Three, take it ya bastards and leave us be. The individual members are free to clarify if asked if they want to, Because again, a Dwarf can keep secrets pretty easily but lying is a cultural taboo, they'd rather twist the truth 8 ways to Sunday before they lie, look at the Radical interpretation of the Rule of Pride.

Snorri will never lie, to be clear. If someone asks, he will tell them the Brotherhood helped even if you chose option one, its entirely emphasis on the public release and explanation.
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then someone asked for clarification
Woltaire said:
so to be clear will not be stealing credit if we choose the mythical option correct?
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soulcake said:
"Hey how did you figure this out?"
"Me get research from Favour Trading then put all pieces together :^)"
"Fascinating, how can a Dwarf such as I achieve something similar?"
"Make fren at my Rhuniversity. :^)"
"Understandable, have a nice day."

In all seriousness no, he's not gonna hide the fact that he traded favours as all old Dawi do. If you fairly trade away what you know and then that person uses that knowledge to style on you that's entirely on your head Beardling, shoulda kept that know how to yourself, shake my beard and all that.
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Te stated intention of the decision to release the new scheme when Khazagar opens is to mitigate the blowback from Khazagar by using the mythic deed as a cover, and not the other way round.

Chainforger I was not incomplete or bad. It is, still, a single device that produces gromril chain. Chainforger II, on the other hand, is a structural combo, which means it cannot be moved or evacuated at all, but can be made more cheaply as a result.
 
i just thought of something, wonder if we are going to get another gromril letter from the Ancestor Gods for improving on the chainforger to make it mass producible so soon after cracking the secret of gromil chain?

edit: maybe something along the lines of "thanks for settling another bet."
 
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Side thought, but the three individual sets are actually really useful for smiths.

The biggest impact of releasing this set combo may not be on increasing the amount of gromril chain out there, given how expensive gromril is, but on the general productivity of smiths.

With Apprentices able to inscribe them, just about all smiths would benefit significantly from Rouse the Forge and Heat the Metal, as it makes working metal of all kinds much cheaper and easier. Mold the Metal is more niche, but it's useful for much more than just chain mail. Jewellers and anyone that uses wire would also find them very useful, particularly those working softer metals that are more likely to snap when drawn.

While the value of apprentices being able to make them is enormous, as it means that basically every moderately successes smith would be able to commission at least the first two combos for their forge, I could see the effects being sufficiently useful that other runesmiths compress these combos to make superior Master Rune versions to apply to the forges of richer smiths along with supporting runes such as the Ancestor Rune of Grungni.

This, as I say, could be the biggest impact, significantly reducing the cost of a wide variety of metal goods. That could be part of why it's Mythical Deed.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
No. I don't particularly think it is.
That should be obvious. I'm voting to share credit.
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Sharing the credit is like, almost explicitly the politically minded option, because it's Snorri not wanting to deal with the political grumblings that this would produce, and so hiding behind the Brotherhood. Option 1 is the less politically minded one where we just wait a bit so we don't get yelled to death by critics, and don't try to obfuscate the deed to avoid criticism as well. Brotherhood still gets credit, they just don't get all the credit
 
TheCynicalPogo said:
Sharing the credit is like, almost explicitly the politically minded option, because it's Snorri not wanting to deal with the political grumblings that this would produce, and so hiding behind the Brotherhood. Option 1 is the less politically minded one where we just wait a bit so we don't get yelled to death by critics, and don't try to obfuscate the deed to avoid criticism as well. Brotherhood still gets credit, they just don't get all the credit
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I was answering the question that was asked of me.
Neat John said:
The maker of the Chainforger is not relevant or significant?
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No, I do not think the maker is relevant or significant.
There are no non-political choices here and arguing which is nor or is less political is stupid.
 
TheCynicalPogo said:
Sharing the credit is like, almost explicitly the politically minded option, because it's Snorri not wanting to deal with the political grumblings that this would produce, and so hiding behind the Brotherhood. Option 1 is the less politically minded one where we just wait a bit so we don't get yelled to death by critics, and don't try to obfuscate the deed to avoid criticism as well. Brotherhood still gets credit, they just don't get all the credit
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In Option 1 we could give specific individual credit to the runelords whose research we repurposed rather than just generalised credit to an anonymous Brotherhod.
 
Dark as Silver said:
No, I do not think the maker is relevant or significant.
There are no non-political choices here and arguing which is nor or is less political is stupid.
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I am not arguing what is and is not political. In fact I don't mind making political choices, we are a Runelord thus inherently political. My one and only beef for option two is that Snorri would be hideing relevant information to portect himself form criticism. I want Snorri to be fair and disclose to the public his involment even if that result's in criticism.
 
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