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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Btw, given that the Brotherhood is itself a 'Secret' society, how does sharing credit even work? Pretty sure they wouldn't be publish it in the name of the 'Brotherhood of Dron', right?
 
Btw, given that the Brotherhood is itself a 'Secret' society, how does sharing credit even work? Pretty sure they wouldn't be publish it in the name of the 'Brotherhood of Dron', right?
Its not secret. Its just reclusive.
They don't talk a lot to outsiders or advertise themselves, but its not a secret they exist.
Snorri knew about them before he was approached for recruitment.
 
Its not secret. Its just reclusive.
They don't talk a lot to outsiders or advertise themselves, but its not a secret they exist.
Snorri knew about them before he was approached for recruitment.

Snorri, Yorri and the lot are also Runelords. Pretty sure the average dwarf, or even the average runesmith, would not actually know about them. And even the runelords would not know who the members are given what I remember of just how Snorri was inducted into the Brotherhood.
 
Reminder once again, there is no "Senior brotherhood" it is not a formal institution.
Option 2 is saying that the combined efforts of the brotherhood solved it without giving other context.

Then why are all of these people called "Senior Member"?

Kraggi Cragsson, Steelback, Runelord of Karak Drazh, Senior Member of the Brotherhood of Dron: Standing 4

Gorra Fallasdottir, Gromrileye, Runelord from Karak Varn, Senior Member of the Brotherhood of Dron: Standing 3

Bogrin Hargrimsson, Azurehammer, Runelord from Karak Eight Peaks, Senior Member of the Brotherhood of Dron: Standing 1

Magda Lenkasdottir, Copperlocks, Runelord from Karak Izril, Senior Member of the Brotherhood of Dron: Standing 2

Modi Yannisson, Copperlocks, Runelord from Karak Izril, Senior Member of the Brotherhood of Dron: Standing 2

Damin Sindrisson, the Stoic, Runelord from Karaz a Karak, Senior Member of the Brotherhood of Dron: Standing 1

And saying that the combined efforts of the brotherhood solved it without giving other context is withholding information. Without context the other Dwarf's can not judge for themself in a fair manner.
 
Btw, given that the Brotherhood is itself a 'Secret' society, how does sharing credit even work? Pretty sure they wouldn't be publish it in the name of the 'Brotherhood of Dron', right?

My understanding is that the existence of the Brotherhood isn't secret. Its membership and goals are, I think. People know the group exists, but they don't know Snorri is a member or that it is researching adamant in the hope of breaking the rule of three.

This is one reason why most people can't ask, as the membership is secret very few non-members who know who they can ask.

This is why this option can not share credit with the individual members of the Brotherhood, as basically no one else knows who they are so they can't be given credit for it.
 
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Snorri, Yorri and the lot are also Runelords. Pretty sure the average dwarf, or even the average runesmith, would not actually know about them. And even the runelords would not know who the members are given what I remember of just how Snorri was inducted into the Brotherhood.
I dunno what you're getting at?
There are IRL universities that I've never heard of, doesn't mean they are secret societies.
Then why are all of these people called "Senior Member"?



And saying that the combined efforts of the brotherhood solved it without giving other context is withholding information. Without context the other Dwarf's can not judge for themself in a fair manner.
I assume that means "Been in the group for a long time" rather than "Position in hierarchy though". And if thats what Alratan meant then my bad however I assumed he meant the later due to his previous arguments.

As for withholding, how far do you want to stretch this? It feels like no matter how much Snorri shares, we could always point to some minor detail he didn't mention because he didn't think it was relevant and claim he's witholding information.
E:
...

It's creative reframing of the truth not lying but yes.

That's what the Brotherhood option is.
Well either nobody in the Brotherhood has the honour to stand up for truth or you think its significantly worse than they actually do.
 
I dunno what you're getting at?
There are IRL universities that I've never heard of, doesn't mean they are secret societies.

There are around 20-30000 universities world wide. Of course you haven't heard of many.

Rather, what I was trying to drive at was the Members of the Brotherhood being secret, wouldn't publishing stuff mean essentially they are revealing themselves? Is that ok with the other members of the Brotherhood?
 
I was just rereading the last couple of updates and a few things occurred to me.

Otrek II should hope someone invents the Master Rune of Arête. Given he seems likely to become a wise king, inventing the Master Rune of Kingship during his lifetime would also be beneficial.

The Albionese may practice alchemical transformation of iron and bronze (or copper and tin) into higher tier forms. If we ever rescue/make contact with them this may be a useful trade good. It's possible that some of the other special metals that other holds produce or mine are either accidentally alchemical or naturally transmuted in a similar way. When we complete Azakit we may want to try to reproduce them. When Karstah completes her armour research there may be some synergies with Azakit as well. It's just possible that she'll compete the materials analysis this turn and give us any bonus when she's half way through, but I doubt it.

The Brotherhood seems to have thourghly ruled out there being material contamination remaining in adamant. This makes me wonder if the residual chaos is structural rather material. Graphite and diamond can both be pure carbon after all, but have quite different priorities. This may be going in the wrong direction completely, or there could be a sideways project like Gromril chain to make Adamant Crystals. It would be appropriate as the word for diamond is derived from the word adamant. Perhaps something for Fjolla when she's a runelord.
 
There are around 20-30000 universities world wide. Of course you haven't heard of many.

Rather, what I was trying to drive at was the Members of the Brotherhood being secret, wouldn't publishing stuff mean essentially they are revealing themselves? Is that ok with the other members of the Brotherhood?
As I said. They aren't actually putting in effort to be secret. They just aren't advertising themselves.
We would not be getting Standing from them if we were putting them in an awkward position.
 
The deed was hanging around in the background because if it wasn't it was because Drakk would have been destroyed.
There is literally no evidence that it influenced anyone to change their behaviour.
Not entirely true. Someone already replied before I could collate stuff but the Mythic deed Otrek got for Killing Kholek and This Far and no Further are invariably tied to Kraka Drakk's rise to prominence. Since they're so intertwined Its hard to say what is thanks to suviving and whats thanks to the deed, but since the latter is thanks for the former you can draw your own conclusions.

To make a long explanation short Otrek got:
- the other Kings to listen to him because he was known as the slayer of Kholek and King of Kraka Drakk
-- Which progresses into him later being known largely as Otrek the Uniter.
--- He kept the ball rolling and got the North to its weird position now but the opportunity came from the prestige.
- Grimnir gave him that ring because of his defiance

And Kraka Drakk got:
- an obvious and real show that they are in fact a real and established Hold recognized as such by the Southern Holds a century or two before they otherwise would have because they literally held out and fought for years on their walls instead of forting up behind their gates.
-- Like they would admit it grudgingly before but would say some plainly after the fact.
- huge political windfall from being the only Hold in the North that did that and admittedly furthered their lead.
- bonuses to migration and Runesmiths that would have otherwise ignored Otrek now taking him up on his offer.

But as I said you can argue thats more due to him and his Hold surviving the SIege but since the deed encapsulates the act...eh?

Then why are all of these people called "Senior Member"?
On the Brotherhood.
- As I said, the only way to get in is be invited, either by a member or because your master is a member and thinks you're up to snuff and makes the offer.
-- I honestly coouldn't find a better word at the time, but its more to delineate that these are the guys who are significant and not so much a position of actual authority. There are a few dozen Masters who are largely former apprentices of these people but are beneath the abstraction of the quest. Will edit to make that clear though.
--- In my mind this changes as time progress (in canon), because they don't find success in breaking the Rule of Three and sort of solidify and turn insular, becoming more known as the Brotherhood of Dwarfs who work in Karag Dron who's greatest member is Kurgaz who builds the Anvils of Doom until his death and the sundering of the mountain.
--- Part of this means becoming something like Vragni's institution


Which reminds me!


On Vragni's institution, because I realize I didn't actually crosspost so I apologize. #Culture #Runesmiths
- He is making his own institution because he realizes the only way to counter your influence with Khazagar is something equally impressive.
-- He is very aware of what it will do, and hates that he's doing it.
- Vragni's institution is very much going for the ideal of "I will make it possible for you to do effectively anything you want, such that the only actual limit is your talent and creativity"
-- Basically a lot of political capital used to buy up material, make it available to Runesmiths and give them facilities that have the best tools/let them make their best tools.
--- A result of this will be massively increased output of Runecraft. Because these are Runesmiths allowed to pretty much run buckwild because material and other constraints are largely removed from consideration.
-- There will be commission boards and the like, but more because Vragni views them as a means of inspiring further development.
-- Similarly, Vragni isn't gonna disavow everything you do. Actually trying to recreate Vragni's institution from the Workshop vote options isn't possible because he has different priorities and considerations, but any of the options there that improve Conservative Standing? He has them, if not a perfect 1 to 1 of it.
 
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Not entirely true. Someone already replied before I could collate stuff but the Mythic deed Otrek got for Killing Kholek and This Far and no Further are invariably tied to Kraka Drakk's rise to prominence. Since they're so intertwined Its hard to say what is thanks to suviving and whats thanks to the deed, but since the latter is thanks for the former you can draw your own conclusions.

To make a long explanation short Otrek got:
- the other Kings to listen to him because he was known as the slayer of Kholek and King of Kraka Drakk
-- Which progresses into him later being known largely as Otrek the Uniter.
--- He kept the ball rolling and got the North to its weird position now but the opportunity came from the prestige.
- Grimnir gave him that ring because of his defiance

And Kraka Drakk got:
- an obvious and real show that they are in fact a real and established Hold recognized as such by the Southern Holds a century or two before they otherwise would have because they literally held out and fought for years on their walls instead of forting up behind their gates.
-- Like they would admit it grudgingly before but would say some plainly after the fact.
- huge political windfall from being the only Hold in the North that did that and admittedly furthered their lead.

But as I said you can argue thats more due to him and his Hold surviving the SIege but since the deed encapsulates the act...eh?
I was arguing about Snorri's deed specifically.
In a hypothetical scenario where Snorri evacuated and wasn't involved in the defense, but everything else ended up more or less the same. I don't think any of this changes?
Sorry if this got confused over the conversation drifting.
-- He is very aware of what it will do, and hates that he's doing it.
Naturally this only makes him hate Snorri more. :rofl::lol::rofl:
 
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Just going back a step, let's look at this quote:

What stays the hand of the Guild, what prevents the might of the Rune-blooded from descending on Klausson is a variety of factors. The most common are the shield of technicalities, the pedigree of his work and deeds, fear of what outright schism would mean and what side Thungni would favour.​

Snorri's deeds are explicitly a major part of what protects him and by extension Khazagar from censure. Another Mythic deed should strengthen that protection, giving it more of a chance to prove itself and probably more leeway for teething problems.
 
Sooooo????
If the result is that the Brotherhood is more willing to release unrelated secrets because maybe they get random credit, thats where I started my argument from.
SO my point is that

<A> I disagree with the notion that Voting for the brotherhood in this version at least would do anything for the stated goal. It has uses and benefits but not in this one field. But I think we can agree to disagree at this stage

<B> I'm presenting a speculation for future plans that we can artificially recreate the event, that by foccusing a massive amoutn of into one research project such that a big proportion of the progress is derived from the brotherhood, we could probably get them to actively take credit as opposed to our current situation.
 
I was arguing about Snorri's deed specifically.
In a hypothetical scenario where Snorri evacuated and wasn't involved in the defense, but everything else ended up more or less the same. I don't think any of this changes?
Ah IC.
To be clear Otrek would have had a mythic for Killing Kholek and This Far and No Further too, which is what helped/allowed what i described above. So you're correct about not much changing besides the narrative framing.
 
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Ah IC.
To be clear Otrek would have had a mythic for Killing Kholek and This Far and No Further too, which is what helped/allowed what i described above. So you're correct about not much changing besides the narrative framing.

The start of the debate, of course, was the the narrative effects of Mythic deeds, and how Otrek's two deeds allowed him to do much of what he later achieved.

From there, it is easy to extrapolate that another Mythic deed to Snorri's name would also help out a lot narratively.
 
I think the original context of the discussion of Otrek's mythic deeds was that they granted a form of metaphysical significance that had tangible benefits on top of whatever the other direct consequences of the act that produced the mythic deed were.
 
Any and all relevant and significant information.
Well theres the catch.
We disagree on if this is relevant or significant.
It doesn't deepen anyones understanding of the process or the invention. So it isn't relevant to the Chainforger itself.
Nobody will be offended or sidelined by the change of framing. So it isn't politically damaging.
And Snorri like him even more to his eternal dismay.
Oh Snorri doesn't like him.
Snorri could have gotten along in the past, but Vragni has thrown too many insults for Snorri to overlook.
SO my point is that

<A> I disagree with the notion that Voting for the brotherhood in this version at least would do anything for the stated goal. It has uses and benefits but not in this one field. But I think we can agree to disagree at this stage

<B> I'm presenting a speculation for future plans that we can artificially recreate the event, that by foccusing a massive amoutn of into one research project such that a big proportion of the progress is derived from the brotherhood, we could probably get them to actively take credit as opposed to our current situation.
Sure agree to disagree on a. And what if, and hear me out here... I'm not necessarily opposed to doing B anyway to try and double that bonus.
E:
I think the original context of the discussion of Otrek's mythic deeds was that they granted a form of metaphysical significance that had tangible benefits on top of whatever the other direct consequences of the act that produced the mythic deed were.
I'm pretty sure that previously we were arguing that Snorri's involvement in the deed contributed to KD's attraction for Runesmiths.
 
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So long as Vragni's project ends up benefiting dawikind as well, then no complaints here. It'll probably annoy him if Snorri didn't really care so long as it helped their people.
 
@soulcake, will Otrek's bonuses due to his Mythical deeds be passed on in some form to his descendants? Like, say, a theoretical Chaosbane or Magic Resistance mechanic is passed down his line now and forever or some sort.
 
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