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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Banners of super healing are more useful when fighting significant numbers of peer opponents, properly equipped dwarves can walk off fighting large numbers of lessers, but fighting peers can result in crippling or eventually fatal injuries.
Really depending on how you look at our battle system and the limits of Banner Runes, a properly optimized army should be running multiple banners in any battle. One to heal their injuries, thus prolonging their strategic and tactical endurance, one to make them tougher to hurt and then one to make them more killy through some means be it daemonward or outright killiness.

Obviously trying to cram all of that onto one banner is both unnecessary because you can just make more banners, and would dilute the effects if we tried to shove it all into one Banner instead of going for Runic Combos on three banners. Something for later though.

We can fight things on that level, so I don't see why another supercombatant compared to something unique or more widely useful is the absolute only choice. I'd give a proper Gronti Duraz fully kitted out good odds against Greater Daemons.
Because of two things in my mind. The first is that while Snorri can as a runelord he really should be making items that either help his people stand against those types of supercombatants. By either making other supercombatants, like Otrek with Trollslayer, or a Golem. His skills are specialized in making things that make specialized fighters way better. And with the system as it is throwing d50s where bonuses really matter, that sort of creative effort is really effective on our parts.

The second thing is that the effects of a super healing banner, a wide AOE effect, can be substituted in effect with a higher quantity of weaker banners. We'd pay for that with probably a worse threshold of injuries that are possible for the banners to heal, more than likely. But if the healing banners are T4 due to materials like Adamant there's going to be a smaller gap between it and a super healing banner with the heart.
 
Super golems are more useful when fighting enemy supercombatants like the Greedy Troll, Greater Daemons, etc, where a healing banner wouldn't save them from instantly fatal blows, but a supercombatant that's massively harder to kill than a dwarf hero would serve better.
Hmm... Supercombatants will fight each other, but a mere enemy Hero, Lord, or Champion might not necessarily want to engage in a fistfight with a giant. Might see it as something for their giant, or siege weapon, to handle.

So. How about we make them have to fight the golem?

What if we gave the golem a horn inscribed with the Master Rune of Challenge? (Or Master Rune of Taunting.) We'll make the enemy leader be forced to fight a giant golem. Or they'd flee the field, which I'm sure will do wonders for their army.

It'd be hilarious if this could also lure people out from their fortifications too. But Dwarfs prefer to never be the ones attacking defenses of course. But if they did, it'd be amusing to think of.
We can fight things on that level, so I don't see why another supercombatant compared to something unique or more widely useful is the absolute only choice. I'd give a proper Gronti Duraz fully kitted out good odds against Greater Daemons.
For starters, this golem will be able to have further runic equipment. I'm not sure if that comes standard for every rune golem. Even if it does, I still kind of feel like this one will be special -- because its heart will provide it with extra energy, which will probably be able to overflow to its equipment. So that the runes will stay strong even when the winds of magic aren't very strong.

Secondly, we can fight such things but generally you probably really don't want to if you can avoid it. Fighting dragons and Greater Daemons and Giants is scary. Sure, you can kit out to face them anyway, and Dragonslaying and Daemonslaying runes will help ruin their day. But still. To fight monsters, we created monsters of our own.

So basically it's like... Veekie is saying that a Banner of Healing won't save an army from a rampaging Mammoth or Greater Daemon. But having a Jaeger would. Go big or go extinct! Because it'd step up and fight the monster. And of course the giant golem will be useful in other battles too. If it can rampage without a counterpart monster to check it, well.

And I suspect that this one won't need to slumber, or be awakened by a Runelord. So it'll be getting used a lot more often. (And if we can get it so that a Dwarf King or Thane can command it, then... then you wouldn't even need to have a Runelord on the same field of battle as it.)

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The first is that while Snorri can as a runelord he really should be making items that either help his people stand against those types of supercombatants. By either making other supercombatants, like Otrek with Trollslayer, or a Golem. His skills are specialized in making things that make specialized fighters way better.
He should also be casting spells in battle. Well, striking runes. But basically, as a Runelord, he serves as the Dwarfs' magical support.

You can have your fight-wizard lord get into duels with the enemy leadership, or have them in the front lines... and Dwarf Runelords can have some very killy equipment, but... They're also a wizard. They buff their side and debuff the enemy.
 
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For starters, this golem will be able to have further runic equipment. I'm not sure if that comes standard for every rune golem. Even if it does, I still kind of feel like this one will be special -- because its heart will provide it with extra energy, which will probably be able to overflow to its equipment. So that the runes will stay strong even when the winds of magic aren't very strong.
Excellent point. It can carry around a powerful T4 healing banner, and importantly because the banner is attached to an extremely hard to take down golem it's hard to take down and damage the Banner which is actually a problem if its being carried around by a normal dwarf.
 
So, I have a question for those more we'll versed in whf Lore. If dwarf golems need handlers/controllers that operate the Golem, usually from a distance, why can't we simply make golems that are piloted from the inside? Like, make a small chamber within the golems upper torso for the dwarf pilot and all of gear they would use to control it from a distance normally.

This seems to me to be patently superior then leaving them exposed to enemy attack from behind. If they're within the Golem then an enemy would have to defeat the Golem itself to stop it instead of simply cutting off the head of the snake as it were by targeting the exposed controller.

Like, functionally, what's stopping this from being a thing?
Because it loses most of the advantages of being a golem. Better not to have any fleshy bits on the inside. Keep those as far from the fight as possible.
 
I'm certain there's a limit to the amount of stacking one can do with Banners.
There probably is, otherwise it'd get weird on a mechanical level. On the other hand if you only pull the healing banners out for treating your wounded facilities? That's easier for Soul to manage and makes some lore sense. Set up a Banner, basically get a magical field hospital.
 
@soulcake figured I'd get this question asked now, with the plan with Dolgi and Fjolla leaning in the lead, could we do a write in action, or have an action, where Snorri visits the orphan wing in the Temple of Valaya to see if any of them have the Gift? Presuming one or more are above the age of 20 I mean.
 
@soulcake figured I'd get this question asked now, with the plan with Dolgi and Fjolla leaning in the lead, could we do a write in action, or have an action, where Snorri visits the orphan wing in the Temple of Valaya to see if any of them have the Gift? Presuming one or more are above the age of 20 I mean.
This would be for turn 14 right?
 
Because it loses most of the advantages of being a golem. Better not to have any fleshy bits on the inside. Keep those as far from the fight as possible.
Um... why? Shouldn't the pilot be incredibly protected while inside the Golem? I mean sure if the Golem gets knocked around a bit the pilot might get tossed around if he isn't strapped in or something but I'm sure Snorri could work out a protective suit meant for stuff like that.

Also like I pointed out if the controller is killed in an assassination type attack the Golem basically becomes inert right? If it's piloted then if the enemy wants to stop the Golem they would actually have to defeat it straight up instead of a work around.
 
This would be for turn 14 right?

Ideally yeah. It could theoretically be for any turn going forward just in case we run short of apprentices and dwarves die. I just figure it'd be a 'quick' way to check probably multiple dwarves for the gift for when he needs a new apprentice.

Plus, it could maybe start an interesting trend if it's successful. Instead of older dwarves seeming to forget about the orphans, which it seems to be implied they do? We could have Runesmiths and such look in to see if any of them are suitable for apprenticeships. Giving orphans a very good option to advance their social rank and a way to earn/make a family name.

Just one more gift from the Gift Giver to the young and underprivileged.
 
Um... why? Shouldn't the pilot be incredibly protected while inside the Golem? I mean sure if the Golem gets knocked around a bit the pilot might get tossed around if he isn't strapped in or something but I'm sure Snorri could work out a protective suit meant for stuff like that.

Also like I pointed out if the controller is killed in an assassination type attack the Golem basically becomes inert right? If it's piloted then if the enemy wants to stop the Golem they would actually have to defeat it straight up instead of a work around.
I don't think it becomes inert. Golems like the ones around the Smelter in turn 9 can be given orders to do stuff like "stand guard" and such, i.e long running orders or order sequences from what's been shown so far. They couldn't do their job if the runesmiths who made them had to constantly stand there and hand hold them.

Waking them up from inactivity would require a Runesmith though.

Actually @soulcake, what are the limits for like controlling golems and their orders and the limits of their intelligence?

Ideally yeah. It could theoretically be for any turn going forward just in case we run short of apprentices and dwarves die. I just figure it'd be a 'quick' way to check probably multiple dwarves for the gift for when he needs a new apprentice.

Plus, it could maybe start an interesting trend if it's successful. Instead of older dwarves seeming to forget about the orphans, which it seems to be implied they do? We could have Runesmiths and such look in to see if any of them are suitable for apprenticeships. Giving orphans a very good option to advance their social rank and a way to earn/make a family name.

Just one more gift from the Gift Giver to the young and underprivileged.
It seemed more like there wasn't much that older dwarfs figured could be done, though Elder Moira definitely cares about them as do the other sections of the hold tied most closely to Valaya.
 
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I don't think it becomes inert. Golems like the ones around the Smelter in turn 9 can be given orders to do stuff like "stand guard" and such, i.e long running orders or order sequences from what's been shown so far.

Waking them up from inactivity would require a Runesmith though.
Well that's for ones that have been given those orders but what about one that is being actively controlled? Like those in battle? In that case it's not operating on some pre set orders so if it simply stopped recieving commands wouldn't just stand there?
 
Well that's for ones that have been given those orders but what about one that is being actively controlled? Like those in battle? In that case it's not operating on some pre set orders so if it simply stopped recieving commands wouldn't just stand there?
In such a battle I figure dwarfs are thorough enough to give it target information and back up orders of kill all of X in sight if orders are interrupted. But I've asked @soulcake, because this is actually pretty important to know one way or the other what the limits of golem intelligence actually are.
 
We can fight things on that level, so I don't see why another supercombatant compared to something unique or more widely useful is the absolute only choice. I'd give a proper Gronti Duraz fully kitted out good odds against Greater Daemons.
Snorri also got fucked up real good by the Greedy One and that was like...serious Daemon but not really Greater Daemon territory. He's a crafter first, a caster second and a fighter third. He ALSO fights good, but fighting good has a risk of breaking the super crafter.

Supercombatants are rare. Most individuals will never qualify to be one, no matter how well armed or trained. You can't just build one on demand.

And well, the Heart gives it unlimited power, and a giant super golem can also lift a fuckton for practical work.
 
Supercombatants are rare. Most individuals will never qualify to be one, no matter how well armed or trained. You can't just build one on demand.

And well, the Heart gives it unlimited power, and a giant super golem can also lift a fuckton for practical work.
Well technically Snorri can, see dress up doll Otrek. But it does take time.

That's the main limiting factor.
 
Also, a golem can be directed to go and fight. And then it can just keep swinging and fighting on its own. It knows how to fight, basically. Runelords make them and give them the ability and skill to fight.

A golem-armor? Would be a completely new way to fight. You'd have to relearn how to fight.

Also, it probably would not be anywhere as autonomous as a golem proper; because an armor strikes as something far less independent. Otherwise it wouldn't be armor, y'know?

So yeah. It might sound like a cool idea. But it's too weird to easily use. So I'd rather when we make our super-golem, that it be one that is of a type where we know roughly what to expect and how to use it; not one where we'd then also have to figure out a way of war just for it!

... There might also be some Runesmith pride on the line. Like. Snorri has his armor and weapons and talismans. He has his set of wargear. If he donned a golem-armor, he wouldn't be using that wargear. It'd be like he's replacing them with a new thing. (This sort of thing isn't the case if you're just riding on top of a golem like a monster rider, or if you're giving orders to it. Because then you're still geared up in your own gear.)

... Oh yeah, and there's also the case of what it'll be like generations down the line. When Snorri is gone and the golem passes on to other Runelords or Thanes. If it's like a conventional golem, they'll know how to use it; it's a golem, use it like that. If it's a weird one-off experiment, then very inheritor would have to learn a new way of fighting.

EDIT:
@soulcake
Oh right, shouldn't forget this.

@soulcake when I was looking up some runes, I noticed that the Master Rune Challenge (Banner Rune) write-up had a typo. That "room" should be "rune."
Wait crap I meant it's a Talisman rune not a banner rune. I am an idiot.

At least I quoted the rune itself, so the write-up is visible. ><
 
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Also, a golem can be directed to go and fight. And then it can just keep swinging and fighting on its own. It knows how to fight, basically. Runelords make them and give them the ability and skill to fight.

A golem-armor? Would be a completely new way to fight. You'd have to relearn how to fight.

Also, it probably would not be anywhere as autonomous as a golem proper; because an armor strikes as something far less independent. Otherwise it wouldn't be armor, y'know?

So yeah. It might sound like a cool idea. But it's too weird to easily use. So I'd rather when we make our super-golem, that it be one that is of a type where we know roughly what to expect and how to use it; not one where we'd then also have to figure out a way of war just for it!

... There might also be some Runesmith pride on the line. Like. Snorri has his armor and weapons and talismans. He has his set of wargear. If he donned a golem-armor, he wouldn't be using that wargear. It'd be like he's replacing them with a new thing. (This sort of thing isn't the case if you're just riding on top of a golem like a monster rider, or if you're giving orders to it. Because then you're still geared up in your own gear.)

... Oh yeah, and there's also the case of what it'll be like generations down the line. When Snorri is gone and the golem passes on to other Runelords or Thanes. If it's like a conventional golem, they'll know how to use it; it's a golem, use it like that. If it's a weird one-off experiment, then very inheritor would have to learn a new way of fighting.
It's not exactly a golem armor, its like what Veekie described a while ago, a cockpit on a mech sort of. Just a pocket in the chest which is less of an issue. I don't have problem with it per se.
 
Snorri also got fucked up real good by the Greedy One and that was like...serious Daemon but not really Greater Daemon territory. He's a crafter first, a caster second and a fighter third. He ALSO fights good, but fighting good has a risk of breaking the super crafter.

Supercombatants are rare. Most individuals will never qualify to be one, no matter how well armed or trained. You can't just build one on demand.

And well, the Heart gives it unlimited power, and a giant super golem can also lift a fuckton for practical work.
Mmm, I dunno man. I personally think something like the Greedy One, at least after he entered his second to final form (which he didn't actually achieve), was on that level. I suppose we'll have to table that until we see soulcake's interpretation of them.
 
Like, yeah a T5 Healing Banner or Armor of Wolverine Tier Regeneration would be a great thing to have and a massive force multiplier, but its also a whole lot more likely to become lost in the midst of some massive battle where the forces of Chaos dont need to destroy it, just the dwarf wearing the stuff.

Nurgleites and Skaven have the tools to do that.

Itd take the settings top tiers to destroy an Adamant Golem running off the Greedy One's Heart. And between that and Snorris own work on Kazak Drakks defenses...

Thats a really tall order to bring down the Hold.

Its legit the kind of thing that could potentially punch the shit out of a Verminlord.

And thats security you can bet on.
 
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The Master Rune of Waking futzes about enough that Golems are usually capable in most situations. It won't be the greatest duelist on account of its size, heft and bulk, but it won't bumble about if that makes sense? Golems shine as hardpoints in shocktroop formations and basically forcing big things to hit them because they otherwise run roughshod over the little guys.

So uh, don't freak out if a golem has to stall a greater daemon of Khorne or whatever, but dont expect it to win all that often?*

Like...it isn't incompetent but dont expect an uber duelist with just the Master Rune of Waking.
 
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The Master Rune of Waking futzes about enough that Golems are usually capable in most situations. It won't be the greatest duelist on account of its size, heft and bulk, but it won't bumble about if that makes sense? Golems shine as hardpoints in shocktroop formations and basically forcing big things to hit them because they otherwise run roughshod over the little guys.

So uh, don't freak out if a golem has to stall a greater daemon of Khorne or whatever, but dont expect it to win all that often?*

Like...it isn't incompetent but dont expect an uber duelist with just the Master Rune of Waking.
And a hypothetical Adamant Golem with the Trpll Heart and a Master Rune Weapon or two. How would that fare?
 
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