On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
Do we have a reason to believe that he would not be willing to appropriately test and check the performance of the campus if less stressed?
Having a lot running on the outcome isn't a good sign for good science, its a conflict of interest to find the finding that justify your changes.
Do we have a reason to believe that he would not be willing to appropriately test and check the performance of the campus if less stressed?
Having a lot running on the outcome isn't a good sign for good science, its a conflict of interest to find the finding that justify your changes.
I'm not saying he wouldn't appropriately check WHEN he checked. My point is that his impetus verifying if he was right at low stress would probably mean that he wouldn't check as often because he is less worried about things going wrong. Like the difference between watering a cactus and tending to a fire.
Not to mention, this isn't science. It's more accurate to call it a test of philosophy.
@soulcake Is the defensive capstone something we have to decide on right now in the planning phase or is it something we can hold off on to do research for?
The simplest, most straightforward way of resolving this is to lock in everything apart from Procurement and Libraries, as they're identical between both of the top two plans.
This puts the locked in maximums at 2 + 2/3, leaving 4/3 remaining to work with while staying within 4 maximums.
Then we have a runoff vote with all the options for Procurement and Libraries included, so people can appropriately rebalance in light of the new information and clarifications, in a vote with way fewer moving parts and possible plans than the original.
I am personally at an impasse here. I will most likely make a Run-off, but I just gotta do the maths or find someone to do the maths so that the options I give still let the MAXIMUM library be a working option, otherwise the whole point of it is moot. Regardless I'll lock the vote.
If you locked the common bits among the top plans (maximum infra, maximum teaching and forum) the actual difference comes choosing between some combination of Business, Forge, Procurement and Library. With 2 MAXIMUMs available, Maximum Library is plenty viable. If we further limited to only the top two then we have:
Business 1/3 (both)
Forge 1/3 (both)
Procurement 1/3 (Bird) or 1/2 (No Booky)
Library 0 (No Booky) to 1 (Bird)
I don't understand, if we agree they're likely to have collections either way, what do we disagree on? If you weren't arguing that having a large accessible library would discourage Runesmiths from having private collections what were you talking about?
Do you think the Library option also includes a publishing house?
Soulcake pretty much beat me to it but here's my vision for the library.
The venerable Avar Blackhammer, Master Runesmith of seven centuries, has just accepted a request for a suite of armor from Orin Half-Ear, Watcher of Gazul. Avar knows of the prey the Watchers hunt, but neither he nor his master have any personal experience with The Fallen. So in order to do his commision justice he travels north. After trekking for several week/months he passes the 50 or so layers of outer exterior defenses of XXXX, then the 100 inner exterior defenses layers. He reaches the Entrance Hall, passes the outer interior defense layers, the inner interior defense layers, and reaches the Library's outer gate guarded by the Rune Guard. He is vetted by the 200th or so time and passes through both Library gates.
Inside he is escorted to the Chief Librarian, he states his request. The Librarian checks if there's any book on the subject. There are, one in the maximum security level and one in medium security. Avar doesn't qualify for High or Max security (or any of the hidden sections), but his accomplishments do allow him entrance into the medium security area. He leaves the librarian's desk and the Guards escort him to the next section (passing more seen and unseen defences along the way), before being replaced by a new squad at the entrance of medium security.
Eventually Avar is brought to (a copy of) Igna Metalheart's On Oathbreakers. He is taken to a reading room and under watch of the guards starts dealing with any possible tests within the book itself. After a while he succeeds and reads the book, commiting everything inside to memory. He spends several days at the library, no book being allowed to leave the building, solving more puzzels and challenges along the way. Eventually he finishes. Heads back home and uses his newfound knowledge on Sorcerer-Thanes to perfect both the armor and runic array of his commision.
A century later he deposits his own book on the peculiarities of the Red Spotted Burrowing Drake at the library. Not to be confused with the Red Spotted Cave Drake.
Books are only used within the confines of the library. Never outside. Outside things move along like they have always been.
If you locked the common bits among the top plans (maximum infra, maximum teaching and forum) the actual difference comes choosing between some combination of Business, Forge, Procurement and Library. With 2 MAXIMUMs available, Maximum Library is plenty viable. If we further limited to only the top two then we have:
Business 1/3 (both)
Forge 1/3 (both)
Procurement 1/3 (Bird) or 1/2 (No Booky)
Library 0 (No Booky) to 1 (Bird)
I'd much rather have the first level of this instead of just a library and procurement vote. Just to try and explain myself here, my preferred plan would be classes (max), forum (max), library (max) and then either nothing else or any level of procurement (even max), no forge or business. I feel like forge & business alongside the other options muddy the waters and make it from a teaching endeavour to consolidation/guildhall type thing. And while procurement also does the same, the support network both helps it click with the scholarly parts more and also fits Snorri's totally not tsundere care for beardlings.
-[ ] Food:
--[ ] Extravagant -[ ] Lodgings:
--[ ] Extravagant -[ ] Shopping:
--[ ] Extravagant -[ ] Defenses:
--[ ] Marvellous -[ ] Aesthetics:
--[ ] Extravagant
-[ ] Classes:
--[ ] Let Master Runesmiths disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish: 1MAXIMUM
-[ ] Forum:
--[ ] Make it part of the plan: 1MAXIMUM
-[ ] Business:
- -[ ] Allow it: 1/3 MAXIMUM
-[ ] Forging:
- -[ ] Use unused Forge Space: 1/3MAXIMUM
-[ ] Procurement:
- -[ ] Tournaments: 1/3 MAXIMUM
-[ ] Library:
--[ ] Extensive and Rare: 1MAXIMUM
-[ ] Food:
--[ ] Extravagant:
-[ ] Lodgings:
--[ ] Extravagant:
-[ ] Shopping:
--[ ] Extravagant:
-[ ] Defenses:
--[ ] Marvellous:
-[ ] Aesthetics:
--[ ] Extravagant:
-[ ] Classes:
--[ ] Let Master Runesmiths disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish: 1MAXIMUM
-[ ] Forum:
--[ ] Make it part of the plan: 1MAXIMUM
-[ ] Business:
--[ ] Allow it: 1/3 MAXIMUM
-[ ] Forging:
--[ ] Use unused Forge Space: 1/3MAXIMUM
-[ ] Procurement:
--[ ] …and Discounts: 1/2 MAXIMUM
-[ ] Library:
--[ ] None at all:
Maximums: 4
Actions: 24
Size: 30 Minimum 5 turns to complete.
Communication: 34 Runesmiths will speak with each other roughly three times as often. Increases discovery, development and proliferation of new Runes by half.
Learning: 28 Runesmiths will finish learning from you three times as fast.
Standing: 10/10 for both
Maximums: 3.16
Actions: 24
Size: 30 Minimum 5 turns to complete.
Communication: 34 Runesmiths will speak with each other roughly three times as often. Increases discovery, development and proliferation of new Runes by half.
Learning: 18 Runesmiths will finish learning from you twice as fast.
Standing: 10/10 for both
Roughly doubles the rate of new Rune dissemination in the Far North. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING SHARING OF RUNELORE IN THE REGION.
Noticeable increase to the creation of new Runes in Kraka Drakk, and half that for the Region. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING GREATER DIPLOMACY AND CLOSER TIES BETWEEN RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION
Roughly half again increased proliferation of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk.
Roughly increases the base quality of metal goods in Kraka Drakk by half.
Roughly half again increased quality of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk
WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING THE WRITING DOWN OF CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE IN THE REGION.
Roughly doubles the rate of new Rune dissemination in the Far North. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING SHARING OF RUNELORE IN THE REGION.
Noticeable increase to the creation of new Runes in Kraka Drakk, and half that for the Region. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING GREATER DIPLOMACY AND CLOSER TIES BETWEEN RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION
Roughly half again increased proliferation of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk.
Roughly increases the base quality of metal goods in Kraka Drakk by half.
Roughly doubles the quality of Runecraft across Kraka Drakk and half that for the Region.
No Library.
As you can see, both plans are exactly the same save for Procurement and Library. Therefore, I will make the run-off vote solely around those two choices.
You have 1 and 1/3 TOTAL MAXIMUMs to work with.
- [ ] Procurement:
-- [ ] None: They shall find what reagents they find.
-- [ ] Tournaments: 1/3 MAXIMUM, +1 Learning+3 Communication, Requires Basic Shopping at minimum, +1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly half again increased quality of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk. Hold regular tournaments of craftsmanship or martial skill, with the prize therein being a rare reagent or some reward of similar value. It would most certainly bolster the daring and skill of the beardlings as they vie for the prize in question!
-- [ ] …and Discounts: 1/2 MAXIMUM, +2 Learning+5 Communication, Requires Exceptional Shopping at minimum. Roughly doubles the quality of Runecraft across Kraka Drakk and half that for the Region. Get Jorri and perhaps Gloin on the case, and you're certain that you can find a way to offset the cost of reagents for prospective students and regular tournament winners. What better way to cultivate talent? They can certainly pay off the debt to the Karak.
-- [ ] and Hiring: 1 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning+5 Communication, Requires Extravagant Shopping, -1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly triples the quality of Runecraft across Kraka Drakk and double for the Region.WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING MORE ROBUST SUPPORT FOR JOURNEYMEN AND TALENTED RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION. Tournaments, discounts for students and continuous victors, and a system by which Runesmiths may not only hire bands of adventurous Dwarfs to help them gather reagents or collect said reagents for them, but also let regular Dwarfs offer reagents they may be in possession of for sale.
- [ ] Library:
-- [ ] None at all: Books? Books are for people who aren't Runesmiths!
-- [ ] Limited: 1/3 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning. Tomes about some reagents and other information a Runesmith may find useful, but nothing truly groundbreaking.
-- [ ] Extensive: 1/2 MAXIMUM, +6 Learning, -1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. As before but with a far larger amount of information on all manner of reagents found in the Far North.
-- [ ] Extensive and Rare: 1MAXIMUM, +10 Learning, +5 Communication, -2 Conservative Runesmith Standing, -1 Radical Runesmith Standing. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING THE WRITING DOWN OF CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE IN THE REGION. Books on every reagent you know of, some even written by your own hand. Wisdom and lessons learned from multiple sources about enemy magic, and more. No Runelore, and no Elven texts, but it would certainly help the common Runesmith get up to snuff.
EDIT: From now defunct informational posts, just to collate evrything
The Tournaments are simple enough to understand, they'd be based on all sorts of things depending on a variety of factors and mostly be done by Snorri at first, but the point is a winner receives let's say a t3 reagent. There would be categories, maybe young Master Runesmiths, Journeymen only, so that you don't have a particularly old Runesmith sweeping them as that defeats the point of the whole thing. Judgement is based on a vote by all who attend or maybe participate, supervised by impartial, non-voting, Dwarfs to make sure no scuffles or fights break out.
Discounts would be levied for Runesmiths currently learning under you, but usually, for reagents they may require when practicing the Runes you teach. Dwarfs who win tournaments regularly receive a lower, but more general discount so as to push them forward and incentivize them to grow creatively. Of course, such competitions may end up drawing the attention of well-off Dwarfs scouting for young talent to potentially enter a beneficial relationship of patronage with and they become regular places for them to have an agent present or be there themselves. Tournament victors likely become famed earlier in their career than they would otherwise have been and visitors who are watching the tournament may come to them to try and buy the creations they made, hire them as well.
As for the hiring board, it would have Runesmiths/Journeymen posting basically an LFG or bounty on a certain reagent to either acquire for them or help them get them with a standard form for rewards and such so that people know who took what job and to prevent any silliness like underselling or underestimating the difficulty of the job to entice more recipients. Not that you expect it to happen, but just in case of course. There will certainly be a few Dwarf adventurers who come in and pick and choose what to take from it, or they can come and fill out another form basically offering their services and a solid estimation of their skills.
The precedent itself may mean that well-off Thanes or Master Runesmiths may also start hosting tournaments here as well, which may be a vote to decide if you allow, so that young journeymen and Masters get the chance to show off their stuff and secure a wealthy patron for themselves/grab the eye of a Master who may be sharing Runes to those he finds worthy (dependent on other factors). Eventually, there may be more specialized tournaments held for specific items, and the top three or four Dwarfs get to sell their creation to the organizer as well as win a prize or something like that.
So as it seems the main sticking point is the library, I will be explaining how I envision it so that baseless speculation can be put to rest somewhat.
The Library would be in the center of the reconstituted Workshop regardless of what level, and warded to both preserve its contents within and from outside intrusion. The only thing that changes there is that a bigger library will have more Runes of light and what have you within it. As for how you'd vet anyone going in for Runelore it's dependent on the level of the Library.
Lowest Level: you have guards posted outside the door who will only allow Master Runesmiths in. Theres not enough material there or of differing levels of importance more importantly to subdivide the library further.
The increasing levels will have tighter and tighter rings of security. The organization of how the books are stored is the same, just that more sensitive let's say Plant reagent material is stored within the next security level than less sensitive but found in the same place space-wise. You'd not only have guards at the entrance of each new security layer but the books themselves are more tightly sealed. Rune-based locks on the cover that require specific pendants/keys what have you that are stored elsewhere entirely and can only be gotten by asking whoever's in charge of distributing those, for your using of the key to be written down in a double accounting style system to prevent futzing. Vetting worthiness at this point will require general, but understandable rules that can't be pointed to as overly specific/favouring one side or another. Most likely it will be age and skill-based such as "Master Runesmith for at least 5 decades," "Has created/inscribed a Master Rune," and, "Has taught an apprentice,/taught an apprentice that has become a Master Runesmith," for example, because these are understandable and fairly universal levels of skill that no one can feasibly get uppity or nitpicky about.
Of course, there's the contention of this, because Snorri is the one ultimately deciding what info goes where, but that's unfixable.
On the topic of Holocrons. Let's assume we're working with the same general capabilities as the Star Wars one it's obviously based on. A personality engram of whoever stores their memories in it that can somehow self-select for the worthiness of the recipient. If it's possible to create them, then incorporating them into the Library is simple enough with that system. You'd be putting them in the very highest level of security and would have a dedicated group of guards on constant rotation watching them. The items themselves in this scenario self select who gets what knowledge anyway, so that's a moot point, but if they didn't/couldnt then I imagine Snorri would request whoever is making the Holocron and putting it in the library write down their criteria for worthiness, or even a trial or whatever means they want of proving worthiness so that whoever wants to access them will know what to do. Now, the criteria of worthiness may itself be a fucking riddle that requires decades of untangling to figure out what it's actually wanting the Runesmith to do to prove their worthiness, but that's the writer's business. Not Snorri's. This is working under the assumption that if you're putting a Holocron into this library you do actually want this stuff shared, otherwise why bother making something that stores your memories/not give it to your Clan or an apprentice?
The precedence set is that Runesmiths write down lore more often, MAYBE, MAYBE, culminating in Runelore itself being written. We know it eventually happens as I said, look at the background of the Master Rune of Spite, but it'd just mean this is the inciting incident for the long list of things that lead to that, and not whatever it was canonically that caused it. Regardless, Runesmiths will jealously guard it, make it incomprehensible to anyone but them or a very clever Dwarf, and put it in some stupid hard-to-reach places to top it all off because that's how they operate. The library would likely be seen, in the Far North at least, as the uppermost levels of security that can be given; a literal giant fucking Rune inscribed citadel full of guards, Runesmiths and a Runelord living on-site to constantly sit there vetting and protecting the knowledge within.
VOTE BY PLAN.
AN: God help us there's a second part to this Workshop vote, hopefully, it doesn't devolve quite as severely as this has. Here's hoping.
[X] Plan Max Knowledge and Practical Practice - [X] Procurement:
-- [X] Tournaments: 1/3 MAXIMUM, +1 Learning+3 Communication, Requires Basic Shopping at minimum, +1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly half again increased quality of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk. Hold regular tournaments of craftsmanship or martial skill, with the prize therein being a rare reagent or some reward of similar value. It would most certainly bolster the daring and skill of the beardlings as they vie for the prize in question! - [X] Library:
-- [X] Extensive and Rare: 1MAXIMUM, +10 Learning, +5 Communication, -2 Conservative Runesmith Standing, -1 Radical Runesmith Standing. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING THE WRITING DOWN OF CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE IN THE REGION. Books on every reagent you know of, some even written by your own hand. Wisdom and lessons learned from multiple sources about enemy magic, and more. No Runelore, and no Elven texts, but it would certainly help the common Runesmith get up to snuff.
[X] Plan Procure All - [X] Procurement:
-- [X] and Hiring: 1 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning+5 Communication, Requires Extravagant Shopping, -1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly triples the quality of Runecraft across Kraka Drakk and double for the Region.WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING MORE ROBUST SUPPORT FOR JOURNEYMEN AND TALENTED RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION. Tournaments, discounts for students and continuous victors, and a system by which Runesmiths may not only hire bands of adventurous Dwarfs to help them gather reagents or collect said reagents for them, but also let regular Dwarfs offer reagents they may be in possession of for sale. - [X] Library:
-- [X] Limited: 1/3 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning. Tomes about some reagents and other information a Runesmith may find useful, but nothing truly groundbreaking.
I want some sort of library but I value the increase in the number of runesmiths as well as the quality of their work more than I value the library being maxed out.
[X] Plan Max Knowledge and Practical Practice - [X] Procurement:
-- [X] Tournaments: 1/3 MAXIMUM, +1 Learning+3 Communication, Requires Basic Shopping at minimum, +1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly half again increased quality of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk. Hold regular tournaments of craftsmanship or martial skill, with the prize therein being a rare reagent or some reward of similar value. It would most certainly bolster the daring and skill of the beardlings as they vie for the prize in question! - [X] Library:
-- [X] Extensive and Rare: 1MAXIMUM, +10 Learning, +5 Communication, -2 Conservative Runesmith Standing, -1 Radical Runesmith Standing. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING THE WRITING DOWN OF CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE IN THE REGION. Books on every reagent you know of, some even written by your own hand. Wisdom and lessons learned from multiple sources about enemy magic, and more. No Runelore, and no Elven texts, but it would certainly help the common Runesmith get up to snuff.
[X] Plan: Below 3 Maxima -[X] Procurement:
--[X] None: They shall find what reagents they find. -[X] Library:
--[X] None at all: Books? Books are for people who aren't Runesmiths!
