Uhhhh. No, we're not doing that because....we're not trying to trick someone into being witchbombed and attempting to psychologically torture them, especially when the person we're trying hardest to save goes crazy when she learns about the witchbomb. o_O
Dude. For fuck's sake. Please, please at least read what you're objecting to? :sad:
Also, a thought - how about we meet Akiko privately before negotiations begin in earnest, and ask to open a telepathic link between her, us, and one of our Grief Seeds?
If Akiko has not been Witchbombed, her actions make no sense (and she needs to be witchbombed ASAP, 'cos she has to know what the consequences of her actions will be). I explicitly said privately. No Rin, no Mami, and we make to clear to her that this is a potentially harmful revelation. Brief exposure to a witch's thought processes, with us able to sever the tp link and cleanse excess grief at once, is highly unlikely to be harmful. And, again; she needs to know what she's doing here.
 
Hang on, do we know for certain that Akiko knows about the witchbomb? Or, uh, doesn't know, for that matter. Also, I'm pretty certain that we haven't tried telepathing wih a grief seed yet.
 
We didn't quite manage it with Hildegard. She sort of punched us in the brain with a shit load of despair and we haven't seen fit to try again IIRC.

Edit: This was, however, while we were still in her Barrier and prior to her starting to act strange after we completely emptied her Seed.
 
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Yeah, getting Akiko in telepathic contact with a witch/grief seed is probably not the best idea. Best-case scenario, it doesn't work and she thinks we're nuts. Worst-case, it does work and she takes SAN damage. I personally don't want to deal with Sendai's leader going (even more) bugfuck mid-negotiations.
edit: since I forgot, [X] Crasian01
 
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I'm also, uh, not entirely certain what opening a direct mind channel between Akiko and a witch would accomplish, beyond giving her the fright of her life. And frankly, if we want to scare her, there are plenty of other ways we can do so that doesn't involve messing around with witches and grief seeds.
 
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I'm also, uh, not entirely certain what opening a direct mind channel between Akiko and a witch would accomplish, beyond giving her the fright of her life. And frankly, if we want to scare her, we can do so without messing around with witches and grief seeds.
It demonstrates that they're thinking entities, and that what they're thinking is very much not happy thoughts. I'm hoping to stab her in the conscience, if she has one.
 
IMO, we gave up way too soon on that. We are getting way too hung up on paranoia and shadowderps.
We got interrupted by Coobs after we crushed what was left of Hildy's Witch form. We just haven't dedicated any time to her since then. Busy with Oriko and then everything else. Wish we had more time to figure some of this stuff out.

It'd be so much easier if we could just start hitting people until they stopped being crazy.
 
Dude. For fuck's sake. Please, please at least read what you're objecting to? :sad:
If Akiko has not been Witchbombed, her actions make no sense (and she needs to be witchbombed ASAP, 'cos she has to know what the consequences of her actions will be). I explicitly said privately. No Rin, no Mami, and we make to clear to her that this is a potentially harmful revelation. Brief exposure to a witch's thought processes, with us able to sever the tp link and cleanse excess grief at once, is highly unlikely to be harmful. And, again; she needs to know what she's doing here.
I object categorically to anything that involves exposing people to the contents of a grief seed, and disagree with your conclusions about Akiko. Regardless, this idea's just plain toxic for getting a resolution to the war, which is slightly higher priority than...torturing Akiko? For reasons?
 
Okay, two things:

1) Do we know, for certain, that Akiko knows about the witchbomb, as opposed to simply thinking that she will die if her soul gem goes completely black?

2) Assuming that she does know about the witchbomb, do we know for certain that she is callous enough that the only way to convince her is to beam the contents of a witch's mind directly into her head?

As an addendum, all telepathy goes through Kyubey, and we've been trying not to reveal the fact that we posses inexplicable information on the meguca system to him. Doing as you suggest will blow it wide open.
 
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Third, we are not torturing someone to make them a better person. That option is not on the table, ever.

I mean, seriously, how is that going to look, if nothing else? The last thing we need is to give Kyubey genuine, unfalsifiable ammunition to use against us.
 
I object categorically to anything that involves exposing people to the contents of a grief seed, and disagree with your conclusions about Akiko. Regardless, this idea's just plain toxic for getting a resolution to the war, which is slightly higher priority than...torturing Akiko? For reasons?
This is an unargument. I've already laid out why it might have helpful consequences, and you have failed to address them on any level. Repeatedly.
Okay, two things:

1) Do we know, for certain, that Akiko knows about the witchbomb, as opposed to simply thinking that she will die if her soul gem goes completely black?
If she doesn't know, she needs to. Like, now. This has direct and immediate bearing on her actions.
2) Assuming that she does know about the witchbomb, do we know for certain that she is callous enough that the only way to convince her is to open a beam the contents of a witch's mind directly into her head?
One, showing rather than telling is more credible. Two, it has the not-undesirable consequence of shaking her up. Three, this is Akiko we're talking about, so I'm going with 'yes'.
As an addendum, all telepathy goes through Kyubey, and we've been trying not to reveal the fact that we posses inexplicable information on the meguca system to him. Doing as you suggest will blow it wide open to him.
We've already done it once, doing it again reveals no additional information.
Third, we are not torturing someone to make them a better person. That option is not on the table, ever.

I mean, seriously, how is that going to look, if nothing else? The last thing we need is to give Kyubey genuine, unfalsifiable ammunition to use against us.
It had no major adverse effects on us, I'm all in favor of warning her (and giving her a choice, for that matter) and we will limit the effects as much as possible. Contact will be momentary, and accompanied by grief drain. The idea isn't to hurt her, it's to show her the consequences of her actions.
 
If she doesn't know, she needs to. Like, now. This has direct and immediate bearing on her actions.
There are other ways to break the witchbomb onto someone that doesn't involve "opening a direct channel between their minds and a witch". In fact, if she does indeed not know about the witchbomb, what does knowing the thought processes of a witch actually do other than confirm that a witch is indeed insane? If we didn't know what we do, knowing a witch's thoughts wouldn't give any indication that they were a former meguca, or even a thinking human at all.

We've already done it once, doing it again reveals no additional information.
:Citation Needed:

No, we did not telepathy with a witch. We planned to, but then Hildegard zapped us with her grief beam when we prodded her with our grief senses. That kinda put the kibosh on any further experiments of that sort.
 
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No, we did not telepathy with a witch. We planned to, but then Hildegard zapped us with her grief beam when we prodded her with our grief senses. That kinda put the kibosh on any further experiments of that sort.
We were standing in the middle of her Barrier at the time. As an empty Seed, I'm not sure she'd have the means to pull that off again.
 
This is an unargument. I've already laid out why it might have helpful consequences, and you have failed to address them on any level. Repeatedly.

If she doesn't know, she needs to. Like, now. This has direct and immediate bearing on her actions.

One, showing rather than telling is more credible. Two, it has the not-undesirable consequence of shaking her up. Three, this is Akiko we're talking about, so I'm going with 'yes'.

We've already done it once, doing it again reveals no additional information.

It had no major adverse effects on us, I'm all in favor of warning her (and giving her a choice, for that matter) and we will limit the effects as much as possible. Contact will be momentary, and accompanied by grief drain. The idea isn't to hurt her, it's to show her the consequences of her actions.
There are no helpful consequences for witchbombing/testing Akiko that cannot be accomplished through less insane means.

She does not need to know about the Witchbomb, only that extorting the girls for a resource she's well aware they need to survive is no longer tolerated. Anything more as some kind of test? That's witchbombing Akiko for witchbombing Akiko's sake. There is no link between what you want to do and the end goal you have in mind. You think that somehow...mentally exposing her to a Witch's raw grief, assuming that even works, would do something other than scar her and make her need immediate cleansing? Or that she'd somehow repent because...a Witch's head is not a happy place and she's expected to make the leap that she's making people witch out? We'd be better off asking her if we can cut off her fingers with grief blades because at least that doesn't risk her gem getting directly filled! This is a bad plan that will go nowhere, has no basis in fact for its ludicrously optimistic goals, and will all around do nothing but sink things if it goes through.

Credibility is irrelevant when we're talking about something that's unambiguously spreading the witchbomb around people who cannot and should not know about it.

We nearly witched out. That is not no adverse effects.
 
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MINDRAPE IS EVIL. SABRINA IS NOT EVIL. STOP. GOD, SHE AND THE WHOLE THREAD PRACTICALLY THREW UP AND HAD AN IDENTITY CRISIS AFTER PSYCH-TORTURING ORIKO THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE STOOOOOOP.
 
We really need to invent some sort of secret handshake or something for people in the know about the Witchbomb. It's incredibly irritating having to keep shadowderping around it when we talk to other meguca.
 
Or...Not gratuitously bring up the Witchbomb at all. There's us, Homura, and that's it and it should stay that way for as long as possible.
 
MINDRAPE IS EVIL. SABRINA IS NOT EVIL. STOP. GOD, SHE AND THE WHOLE THREAD PRACTICALLY THREW UP AND HAD AN IDENTITY CRISIS AFTER PSYCH-TORTURING ORIKO THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE STOOOOOOP.
Honestly, I have no idea how this idea/discussion came up at all. Was this ever actually a serious idea?

Like, how the fuck would that accomplish anything? Not only that, it's making some rather huge assumptions (like Akiko knowing about the witchbomb...which is something we don't know) and resorting to extreme measures long, long before they could possibly be warranted.

Hell, we don't even understand what's up with direct-telepathy with a grief seed. What kind of insane reasoning would have us using it as a tool when any other option remains?

Or...Not gratuitously bring up the Witchbomb at all. There's us, Homura, and that's it and it should stay that way for as long as possible.
You're forgetting Oriko, and possibly Kirika. But definitely Oriko. Or else the whole implied threat to witch-out Kirika would never have worked (plus, Oriko understood the implications immediately). Oriko also warned us about Masami witching out, so there's that. With the nature of Oriko's powers, it'd be hard for her to not know by now.
 
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:jackiechan:
It's always nice to see what interesting ideas crop up, while you're away.
On that note: Talking to a grief seed once this whole mess is over, is actually a viable idea.
We could try to communicate with an empty Hildegarde seed in a safe environment as opposed to inside a witch barrier.

[x] Crasian01
 
"We've Got Hostiles" pt. 20
You peek at Rin, who's quietly rocking her cup of tea back and forth, looking down and staying quiet. Mami, at your side, is regarding the entire table with her usual, placidly calm demeanour, but the moment she feels the weight of your gaze on her, she turns to smile at you. You smile back, and she returns to her quiet contemplation of the people around the table.

Kirika just looks bored, sketching drawings in the crumbs of her cake, long since devoured. Messily. There are still crumbs stuck on the side of her mouth.

You look back at Chouko, leaning forward on the table. "Um... Miss Tsubaki, " you say, garnering her attention. "Following on that... please don't call for help yet?"

The girl, the leader of her little group, frowns. "You- we-"

"No, look, I'm not asking that you give up or anything," you say hastily, waving your hands in what you hope is a placating manner. "Just... let me take a shot at ending this whole conflict first and yes, that includes Akiko's... tax. And if you call in more favours... Akiko has just as many, more, even. She'll match you girl for girl."

"I... hm," she frowns, and looks away.

You chance a look at Rin again - she's looking away, unable to meet anyone's eyes, her coffee cream cake still untouched. "Look," you say, shifting your attention back to Chouko. "I want this to end peacefully. I just need people to talk, not fight," you say. "That's all I ask."

Chouko nods slowly.

You take a sip of tea, as punctuation. "OK, then," you say. "If you don't mind... Can you tell me the details of the 'tax'? Or rental fee, or what have you? Did she offer you anything in exchange, how did she approach you, that kind of thing? I've heard it from others, but... what's your side of the story?"

The blue haired girl sighs. "Three Grief Seeds a week," she says, holding up three fingers to demonstrate. "We can... could barely keep up with it. My parents... I don't live with them anymore," she smiles bitterly. "The same goes for most of us, really. It's... better than the alternative."

The entire table's silent, now. Mami's sitting up straight, eyes flinty, and Kirika's still lounging in her seat. Rin... the healer's completely unable to meet anyone's gaze, opting to inspect her cake minutely. Varying levels of discomfort go around the table.

"Something in return?" Chouko continues, tone bitter. "I don't know what drives Hamasaki. Greed, or megalomania, or something. I have no idea. She takes, and takes, and takes. I... she's polite. Civilized. She came and talked to us, but when we tried to protest... She was happy enough to kick us around."

"She's just a bitch, through and through," Haru grumbles.

Chouko shrugs. "That too."

"Right," you say slowly. "So... what about Miss Fukui? Was it Hamasaki's... policies, or was there a breaking point?"

A shadow passes over Chouko's face. "That was part of it, yes," she says, and doesn't seem inclined to elaborate any further.

Yuko looks at you, and then at Chouko. "Tell her about about Chika," she says wearily.

Chouko sighs, closing her eyes. "Ayano Chika was our friend. She died. To a Witch. Because we were reckless. Kuzue was... broken up over it," she says, in short, clipped sentences. "She left."

Mami looks stricken, and one of her hands grope for yours, squeezing lightly. You don't particularly need to look at the University group to guess at their expressions - the stark presence of Grief bubbling into their Soul Gems at the reminder is enough. And, surprisingly, or perhaps not so much - the same applies to Rin, too, if at a lesser degree.

"I see," you say. "... I'm sorry, for your loss, and for touching on a painful subject."

"I'm sorry for your loss," Mami echoes, while Kirika nods, face completely solemn.

"Thank you," Chouko says, accepting on behalf of her whole group.

A moment passes in silence. "Sorry, but... moving on... do you know what else Hamasaki's done? Beyond invading Ishinomaki at regular intervals, or something?"

Chouko shakes her head. "Not much. Roams around a bit, I guess? Mostly drags Tachibana with her, teleporting, you know. No idea where, before you ask, the most we know is that she's not in town from time to time," she says.

Less than you'd hoped for. "Alright, then. Last question, are you willing to... speak your mind, with Hamasaki at the table? Or other members of her group?"

Chouko sucks in a breath. "I'd... rather not," she says, and the rest of the University girls nod in agreement.

"Agreements made in the flesh..." you trail off - Chouko's already shaking her head, no.

You sigh, tilting your head back to look at the sky, rapidly shading towards night. Dark clouds on the horizon - looks like a storm rolling in. It's sort of funny, but it rained the last time you saw Akiko, too, didn't it?

... nah. Probably a coincidence.

Still. Time to bring her in?

[] Call in Akiko
[] Negotiations
- [] Tone, points?
[] Write-in


=====​

Also, since it was asked of me a few times and you'll probably not find out in story - Rin is considerably different in her first introduction as compared to now. She was trying to cultivate a) a reputation and b) a professional persona. You guys... kinda broke the latter.

A little like Mami, now that I think about it. :V
 
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