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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Cannongerbil said:
Point, but that will take quite some time before any noticeable effects start showing up, much longer than I'm advocating. If Rin and her soul gem isn't reunited within the hour, something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.
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Just providing information. It depends on how long it's been since separation, the phases would be rigor mortis(under an hour), blood pooling/clotting, leakage of various stuff as retaining muscles slacken, then decomposition of the squishy bits(depends on the temperature).

It should be done ASAP, but a few minutes wouldn't make a difference yet.

:Citation Needed:
As far as I'm aware, a soul gem disconnected from it's owner stops accumulating grief entirely, otherwise Souju's collection would have witched out a long time ago. Sayaka's soul gem certainly does not exhibit signs of rapid grief accumulation during episode 6
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IIRC that happened earlier in the thread when we did it during the Oriko fight?
Souju's collection is under stasis after all.
 
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veekie said:
IIRC that happened earlier in the thread when we did it during the Oriko fight?
Souju's collection is under stasis after all.
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Oriko's soul gem wasn't disconnected during that fight. It was accumulating corruption because it was trying to heal Oriko's severed head, and healing is corruption intensive if you are not specced for it.

And I'm reasonably certain that Souju's collection isn't under stasis at all. The Pleidas collection is, because the bodies are kept nearby, but Souju's is just a box kept out of range of their original owners.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Oriko's soul gem wasn't disconnected during that fight. It was accumulating corruption because it was trying to heal Oriko's severed head, and healing is corruption intensive if you are not specced for it.

And I'm reasonably certain that Souju's collection isn't under stasis at all. The Pleidas collection is, because the bodies are kept nearby, but Souju's is just a box kept out of range of their original owners.
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Hmm, makes sense. Still risky in terms of what happens to their mind when they come back to a body that's already failing, but slightly more leeway.
 
Hmm, makes sense. Still risky in terms of what happens to their mind when they come back to a body that's already failing, but slightly more leeway.
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In the Portable game doesn't Mikki get separated from her body for /days/ and come back okay until she sees how decayed her body is?
 
Just a thought: Rin was a specific target. University group was planning on meeting up with reinforcements that just so happened to include a healer and an empath. Wololo?

Related to that: If, at some point during the talks, some of Sendai's past deeds come to light and they're bad enough the Rin rejects them, you may want to keep an eye on Sakura to make sure she doesn't pull a Sayaka or something.
 
After rereading the update and considering Firn's clarifications, I have to say that calming down and reassuring the Sendai group should be top priority. Sakura might do something stupid because of her feelings for Rin, Masami still has a broken neck and may have further injuries from falling down a building and even Akiko has lost her cool. They either might try to teleport in for a surprise attack or try to get the Fukushima group here faster., which would cmplicate things.
Getting Rin to the point where she can at least send the messages via telepathy seems reasonable. The sooner we do that the better her psychological state will be. As @PhantomFractions pointed out, we can ket the UNiversity girls keep Rin's soul gem for the time being, but reactivate her body. This way they keep their hostage, but Sakura is less likely to do something stupid. Sakura strongly dislikes us and our grief powers, but seems to respect us to an extent, if her going against Akiko in the Mitakihara question is considered. If we guarantee for Rin's safety she may at least give us a bit of time to sort things out with the Universtity group. We also might use this chance to inquire why Rin lied to us in regards to Kato, without Akiko being around to influence her.

The University group seems wary and nervous, but is also respectful towards us and Mami.
If we politely, but firmly demand to be led to Rin's body and explain our reasons, they will probably do it. They know from the Ishinomaki group that fighting us is a stupid idea.

[x] Kinematics
 
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Under an hour means she's mostly in danger of rigor mortis(uncomfortable, but not that bad), partial blood clots(no biggie, might hurt a bit before her magic fixes it up) and possibly voiding her bowels(embarrassing, but PROBABLY won't flip her on it's own).

Like I said before, it's a concern, but a few minutes wouldn't change much.
 
[] Cannongerbil

edit: vote changed

Since I honestly doubt that Rin can't wait the few minutes we need to get in a position to actually get this done. Seriously, unless we timeskip a few hours I don't think she's going to be in trouble body-wise, and I don't want to risk a bad first impression with the University Group.
 
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Now, how to handle reconnecting the soul gem:

Yuko 'engaged' Rin before taking the gem. That likely means that Rin was thus aware of her soul gem being stolen, but was unable to do anything with an invisible opponent running away from her. Cue internal panic.

Now, how is she going to feel when she's reconnected? Recall our little glitch when Homura took our soul gem too far away (Direct Intervention #49) — there was a small chunk of time that just disappeared, and it felt like we went from standing up to fallen over with nothing in between. So when Rin is reconnected, she's likely going to be in that same panic state as when she knew her soul gem was being taken away.

So if she sees one of the University girls standing over her when she comes to, she's probably going to lash out before she realizes what's going on. Someone mentioned having a familiar face in front of her for when she wakes up (suggesting Sakura). Unfortunately the only one here who will be familiar to her and not an enemy is Sabrina.

... Actually, when Sabrina's soul gem cut out, she came back as soon as Homura got back within range. That's different from Sayaka needing to make contact with her body again to revive. @Firnagzen , is that an explicit difference in the quest, or a conditional matter (eg: only being out of range for a few seconds doesn't need a physical reconnect, but it is needed if gone for longer periods of time), or something we just don't know for sure?

If Rin is going to reactivate the instant we get within 100 m of her, that could complicate logistics a bit.
 
You have to remember that during that incident, we were in Homura's timestop. The mechanics presumably work differently when we are in timestop, since from an objective point of view the soulgem didn't disconnect with us at all. Also, do bear in mind that small chunks of time disappearing is also what Homura timestop feels like from an outside perspective.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Oriko's soul gem wasn't disconnected during that fight. It was accumulating corruption because it was trying to heal Oriko's severed head, and healing is corruption intensive if you are not specced for it.
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Our soul gem was disconnected by accident when Homura took it out of range (we sent her away with it in order to prevent Oriko from targeting it).

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Anyway, another data point - when we took Sakura's soul gem, she didn't revive until we put it in her hand.
 
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Vote tally:
##### 3.18
[x]Kinematics
No. of votes: 1
Emdeman

[X] Muramasa
No. of votes: 1
defenestrator

[X] To Sakura: CALM DOWN! I'll get Rin back, but I can't guarantee it if you pop in right now.
[X] To Akiko: Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully but I need cooler heads to win out right now. Escalation is going to end in tears. We don't want that.
[X] Also, is Minami with you?
[X] To University: As I'm sure you're aware from your contact with Miss Inoue, we'd like to get this entire mess settled without further bloodshed. While I understand the point of taking Rin out of the fight during the combat itself, it's also clear that you don't want to actually kill her.
[X] As such, can we get her back on her feet while we discuss things? This is likely to take a while, and I don't want her or her body harmed.[note very serious tone]
[X] The rest of the Sendai group is staying away for now. We can have Rin present as their representative.
[X] Standard Discussions and Negotiations.
No. of votes: 10
Kinematics, Nolrai, AnonymousRabbit, landcollector, Ugolino, PhantomFractions, Aranfan, Gadjo, Guilop, moonstne

[X] To Akiko and Sakura both: Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully but I need cooler heads to win out right now. Escalation is going to end in tears. We don't want that.
[x] To the University group: Okay. I'm sure there's a very, very good reason that you decided to take Rin's gem. Can you explain how all this happened?
-[x] If they seem reluctant:
--[x] Ms. Tsubaki, I've been made aware of at least one injustice. The extortion imposed upon you and your group will not be tolerated. That will end before we're done here.
--[x] I also come here with an offer. My power allows me to cleanse soul gems and empty grief seeds. I'm willing to offer this service to you and your group. Free of charge. But we need to bring this conflict to an end.
No. of votes: 4
Cannongerbil, Dirtnap, theweepingman, aeqnai

Why do I even bother...
 
Random832 said:
Anyway, another data point - when we took Sakura's soul gem, she didn't revive until we put it in her hand.
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Ok, going to assume that we need full physical contact for any incidents outside of Timestop.

So we need to ask that they hand the soul gem to Sabrina when we reconnect the body. To minimize the risk of something bad happening when she's revived, us kneeling over her, holding her hand, and placing the gem against her where it's directly visible (eg: her hand or chest), will probably keep her calm and avoid problematic reactions.


Going to refine and reformat mine slightly for clarity.

Also added a refusal branch that largely uses Mura/Gerbil's points as extra leverage to convince them to accept the 'good faith' request of reviving Rin before we engage in more drawn-out discussions. I'd appreciate commentary on that before I add it to the actual proposal.

[] To Sakura:
-[] CALM DOWN! I'll get Rin back, but I can't guarantee it if you pop in right now.
[] To Akiko:
-[] Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully, but I need to be sure that things won't escalate before that.
[] To University:
-[] As I'm sure you're aware from your contact with Miss Inoue, we'd like to get this entire mess settled without further bloodshed.
-[] While I understand the point of taking Rin out of the fight during the combat itself, it's also clear that you don't want to actually kill her.
-[] As such, can we get her back on her feet while we discuss things? This is likely to take a while, and I don't want her or her body harmed.
-[] The rest of the Sendai group is staying away for now. You can hold onto Rin as... their spokesperson for this discussion.
[] If they refuse:
-[] We're asking it as a gesture of good faith on your part, to mirror ours of bringing the current fighting to a halt.
-[] We don't want to give Sendai reason to believe that our negotiations here are doomed to fail, causing them to act... impulsively.
-[] We intend to deal with the extortionate behavior that Sendai has been engaging in, that has been making life difficult for others.
-[] With our grief manipulation ability, we can largely eliminate grief seed resource issues, rendering the extortion pointless.
-[] If you have a specific need for Rin and her abilities, we can see about addressing that right now, before we move to the broader discussions.
[] If they agree:
-[] Travel as a group to Rin's body and revive her. Preferred method is Sabrina kneeling over her, getting handed the soul gem, and placing the soul gem against Rin where she can see it when she revives.
-[] Move to an acceptable location for discussions, explain our position, and start getting their story.


If they still actively refuse, it will probably have to go to another vote to determine our reaction based on what, exactly, they say, as well as what we say to Akiko and Sakura.
 
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Was thinking on abstaining to vote, but:

[x] Cannongerbil

I don't care if this doesn't wins, it covers up what I think is right.
 
Specifically asking after Minami is completely unnecessary. The broken neck didn't drop her, and I'd think that a magical girl with gravity powers isn't going to be overly fussed by getting tossed off of a building.
 
Cannongerbil, your objection seems to revolve around this basic idea:
Cannongerbil said:
We are still asking them to do something that is of no benefit to them but benefits their enemy. Do you not understand why opening with something like this is a bad idea?
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That sounds like a mirror of the Ishinomaki girls asking us to release Hoshiko. It was no real benefit to us, and it benefited our 'enemy', so why would we bother? Because it was a sign of good faith that we intended to actually discuss stuff and work things out without killing each other.

In fact, their refusal to release Rin would tell us quite a bit as well, but they can't refuse if we don't ask. Maybe they'll accede to the request, or maybe they'll tell us they don't feel comfortable reviving Rin right now, but will consider it if we comply with some request of theirs, or maybe they'll tell us they have no intention of giving up Rin now that they have her. Each of these opens a window onto how we should proceed in dealing with them, and what sort of negotiating tactics we need to consider.

However if we don't ask, they have no reason to offer. Our entire discussion becomes tinged with the shadow of Rin's gem in the background, and Sendai possibly cooking up some half-baked ambush, and the University girls need to consider whether any offers we give are tainted by them having this specific leverage over us. By not being completely up front about what we're concerned about, we open lots of avenues for other problems to creep in.

We're also not demanding that they release Rin, or setting that as a precondition of the discussions; we're asking it as a gesture of good faith. It's entirely possible for the discussions to proceed without them releasing Rin, but if we bring it up right at the start, we settle things so that everyone knows exactly where things stand with respect to her. If they refuse, they are stating Rin's importance to them, or they are holding out for specific concessions, which gives us an opportunity to see if we can fulfill those needs.
 
........ said:
Specifically asking after Minami is completely unnecessary. The broken neck didn't drop her, and I'd think that a magical girl with gravity powers isn't going to be overly fussed by getting tossed off of a building.
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Probably correct. I was concerned about potentially unaccounted for players, but given that Akiko only reacted as noticing Rin being missing, Rin is probably the only one missing, which means Minami is implicitly accounted for.

I'll pull that out of the proposed revision.
 
[x] To Sakura:
-[x] CALM DOWN! I'll get Rin back, but I can't guarantee it if you pop in right now.
[x] To Akiko:
-[x] Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully, but I need to be sure that things won't escalate before that.
[x] To University:
-[x] As I'm sure you're aware from your contact with Miss Inoue, we'd like to get this entire mess settled without further bloodshed.
-[x] While I understand the point of taking Rin out of the fight during the combat itself, it's also clear that you don't want to actually kill her.
-[x] As such, can we get her back on her feet while we discuss things? This is likely to take a while, and I don't want her or her body harmed.
-[x] The rest of the Sendai group is staying away for now. You can hold onto Rin as... their spokesperson for this discussion.
[x] If they refuse:
-[x] We're asking it as a gesture of good faith on your part, to mirror ours of bringing the current fighting to a halt.
-[x] We don't want to give Sendai reason to believe that our negotiations here are doomed to fail, causing them to act... impulsively.
-[x] We intend to deal with the extortionate behavior that Sendai has been engaging in, that has been making life difficult for others.
-[x] With our grief manipulation ability, we can largely eliminate grief seed resource issues, rendering the extortion pointless.
-[x] If you have a specific need for Rin and her abilities, we can see about addressing that right now, before we move to the broader discussions.
[x] If they agree:
-[x] Travel as a group to Rin's body and revive her. Preferred method is Sabrina kneeling over her, getting handed the soul gem, and placing the soul gem against Rin where she can see it when she revives.
-[x] Move to an acceptable location for discussions, explain our position, and start getting their story.

Listen to Kinematics, he knows what's up.
 
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