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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Muramasa said:
Good point. Suggestions on what I should do with that line?
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Well, basically remove the part where ask them to put Rin's soul gem and Rin back together. We still need to find out their side of the story, and we can bring up the proposal after we gain abit more trust with them.The vote is otherwise okay as far as I can tell.
Kinematics said:
On the circumstances of getting Rin back in her body: That's why I'm proposing leaving her as the Sendai representative in the negotiations. From one perspective, she's Sendai's spokesperson. From another perspective, she's not being allowed to leave, and is still essentially a hostage to the four enemy magical girls, even if our crew can trump them. That leaves both sides with the important bits of what they want (a mobile Rin, and leverage).
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The main issue is that doing so is asking them to reduce the value of their leverage for basically no good reason, really. The idea of making Rin a representative isn't bad, just that now is not a good time to bring it up. They don't know us, and I'd rather not give them the impression that we are on Sendai's side, which demanding that they restore Rin definitely will.
 
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Cannongerbil said:
Well, basically remove the part where ask them to put Rin's soul gem and Rin back together. We still need to find out their side of the story, and we can bring up the proposal after we gain a bit more trust with them. The vote is otherwise okay as far as I can tell.
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[x] To Akiko: Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully but I need cooler heads to win out right now. Escalation is going to end in tears. We don't want that.
[x] To the University group: Okay. I'm sure there's a very, very good reason that you decided to take Rin's gem. Can you explain how all this happened ?
-[x] If they seem reluctant:
--[x] Ms. Tsubaki, I've been made aware of at least one injustice. The extortion imposed upon you and your group will not be tolerated. That will end before we're done here.
--[x] I also come here with an offer. My power allows me to cleanse soul gems and empty grief seeds. I'm willing to offer this service to you and your group. Free of charge. But we need to bring this conflict to an end.
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This look alright?
 
Crasian01 said:
I question putting Rin back in her body immediately. From a purely utilitarian standpoint, Rin is less useful as a bargaining chip if she's back in her body. Just as importantly, from an ethical standpoint, I don't think it's reasonable to bring Rin back right now. If I were a meguca, I'd rather my friends brought my gem back to my body after they'd gotten me out of the battlezone and I was in a safe place. This is currently neither.
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Remember we told Rin that she could ask us for help if she needed it? This is the time to follow up on that, to make a good impression.
Cannongerbil said:
Incidentally, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to demand that the university group return Rin's soul gem right this instant. As much as we like Rin, her soul gem is the University group's only bargaining chip right now. Asking them to return it right now is basically tantamount to throwing away the only chance they know of to broker a peace, in favour of trusting the word of a meguca they have just met that she will be able to broker a truce, somehow.
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I think she serves as a bargaining chip just as well either way. In fact, she's more useful in her body since then she can talk down Sakura from doing something stupid. Also, in hostage situations the hostage is usually allowed to talk to their friends/family in order to show that their OK, not dead, right?
 
Random additional note (partly based on Firn's hint): There's likely additional reasons for the University group to have specifically gone after Rin's gem. This may make them either more reluctant, or more willing, to put her back in her body, depending on what that purpose was. Based on my readings of their reactions, I'm willing to bet that they'd be more willing as long as it doesn't appear that we're trying to take Rin away from them right now.

Of note:
  • Yuko stated that she "got 'her'". She didn't state a name. That implies an underlying understanding of exactly who Yuko was going after. Now, it might just be misdirection for the sake of Firn lols, but it feels more deliberate than that.
  • Akiko had a panicked yell of "They have Rin!" We didn't tell her that, and the speed with which she recognized that implies that such an act was at least somewhat expected (and possibly why Rin was stationed away from the main fight).
I'm getting the feeling that there is a very specific tug-of-war over Rin, and maintaining possession of her is more important than a mere hostage position would imply. If that's the case, then they should not be overly reluctant to return Rin to her body, as long as they still get to 'keep' Rin.

Onmur adds a couple more decent points.
 
[x] Muramasa

Onmur said:
I think she serves as a bargaining chip just as well either way. In fact, she's more useful in her body since then she can talk down Sakura from doing something stupid. Also, in hostage situations the hostage is usually allowed to talk to their friends/family in order to show that their OK, not dead, right?
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Cannongerbil said:
The main issue is that doing so is asking them to reduce the value of their leverage for basically no good reason, really. The idea of making Rin a representative isn't bad, just that now is not a good time to bring it up. They don't know us, and I'd rather not give them the impression that we are on Sendai's side, which demanding that they restore Rin definitely will.
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We are still going to bring up the topic later, after we've gained their trust, just not right now when we've just met. We really cannot afford to screw this up, getting into the University group's good books is going to be vital if we are to have any hope of resolving this peacefully.
 
Cannongerbil said:
We are still going to bring up the topic later, after we've gained their trust, just not right now when we've just met. We really cannot afford to screw this up, getting into the University group's good books is going to be vital if we are to have any hope of resolving this peacefully.
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How does putting her back in her body make her less good as a hostage? Without Rin's own word that she's fine, Sendai's gonna get more and more restless.
 
Onmur said:
How does putting her back in her body make her less good as a hostage?
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Objectively, it doesn't. From the viewpoint of the University group, you are basically asking them to increase the chance of losing their bargaining chip in return for absolutely nothing. Like I said, restoring Rin is not a bad idea, just not something that we should be suggesting before we gain their trust.
 
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Cannongerbil said:
Objectively, it doesn't. From the viewpoint of the University group, you are basically asking them to increase the chance of losing their bargaining chip in return for absolutely nothing. Like I said, restoring Rin is not a bad idea, just not something that we should be suggesting before we gain their trust.
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And how long will that take? Time is kind of a critical factor here.
 
...Seriously? We're actually not going to put her soul back in her body...to keep the University group sweet? o_O

This is a bad idea. As pointed out, we need to do that at the very least to stop Sendai from going apeshit and a Rin under guard works just as well as a hostage as a Rin that's a disembodied gem that's on a ticking, one-way timer. It's something that needs to happen right away for any plan to work, especially if we're more or less ignoring the Sendai group. Fail to give them the reassurance that Rin's okay, and they'd be practically justified in overreacting.
 
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Fuck it. Striking out my vote for now. This needs more thought and I'm too tired to think. Goodnight.


...also Ugo's vote is terrible. Don't let that one win.
 
Bah, it gets Sendai where we can see them and avoids them being a complication we can't deal with. Regardless for the love of god why would you possibly want to keep Rin's gem disembodied for no good reason, benefit, or realistic goal when it has a fairly hefty chance of complicating things pointlessly. Being generous, it's stalling for stalling's sake, less generously it's potentially making problems we don't need for ourselves.
 
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Ugo, what is with you and wanting to rush into everything? It's not stalling for stalling sake, we need to gain the trust of the university group. If we want the negotiations to work out at all we need to appear to them as at least sympathetic to their side, and demanding that they relinquish their only bargaining chip does not establish that. And seriously, waiting twenty god damned minutes while we get their side of the story before suggesting that Rin be put back together to serve as a representative won't kill anyone.

[X] To Akiko and Sakura both: Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully but I need cooler heads to win out right now. Escalation is going to end in tears. We don't want that.
[x] To the University group: Okay. I'm sure there's a very, very good reason that you decided to take Rin's gem. Can you explain how all this happened?
-[x] If they seem reluctant:
--[x] Ms. Tsubaki, I've been made aware of at least one injustice. The extortion imposed upon you and your group will not be tolerated. That will end before we're done here.
--[x] I also come here with an offer. My power allows me to cleanse soul gems and empty grief seeds. I'm willing to offer this service to you and your group. Free of charge. But we need to bring this conflict to an end.
 
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[x]Kinematics

It's less polished and lacks some of the details of the gerbil vote but it gets something done about the Rin situation. And, no, her having her gem back does not mean she's negated, especially since they still have the upper hand. The idea that holding off will somehow help things is a joke.
 
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Ugolino said:
The idea that holding off will somehow help things is a joke.
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Cannongerbil said:
The main issue is that doing so is asking them to reduce the value of their leverage for basically no good reason, really. The idea of making Rin a representative isn't bad, just that now is not a good time to bring it up. They don't know us, and I'd rather not give them the impression that we are on Sendai's side, which demanding that they restore Rin definitely will.
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Cannongerbil said:
We are still going to bring up the topic later, after we've gained their trust, just not right now when we've just met. We really cannot afford to screw this up, getting into the University group's good books is going to be vital if we are to have any hope of resolving this peacefully.
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She is going to be on the ground, surrounded, and disoriented. The only difference is that she's a hostage with a body rather than a rock. This is not something that will make an appreciable difference to them if we bother to point it out, especially as they've been written so far.
 
Ugolino said:
She is going to be on the ground, surrounded, and disoriented. The only difference is that she's a hostage with a body rather than a rock. This is not something that will make an appreciable difference to them if we bother to point it out, especially as they've been written so far.
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We are still asking them to do something that is of no benefit to them but benefits their enemy. Do you not understand why opening with something like this is a bad idea?
 
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What part of recent posts suggests they'd be cheery over the prospect of keeping someone dismbodied when they have a perfectly viable alternative? Chouko had to heavily rationalize what she saw. Even a basic attempt to explain things and some reassurances would get this to work, rather than stalling FOR REASONS, never mind that it could actively make things worse.
 
Ugolino said:
What part of recent posts suggests they'd be cheery over the prospect of keeping someone dismbodied when they have a perfectly viable alternative?
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If what you said is true, they would have simply taken Rin hostage instead of stealing her soul gem. Bringing Rin back is only a "Perfectly viable alternative" if they trust our word that Rin is not going to attack them or try and make a break for it. And frankly, you are still asking them to take a risk that they would not take without us convincing them, do you not understand why this might be problematic?
Ugolino said:
stalling
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You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
 
[X] Cannongerbil

May I suggest posting another viewpoint as omakes? That'd make archiving easier. Would you kindly told me if I missed some hidden update/invisitext when I compile the book?
 
Current votes are:

[] Kinematics
Kinematics said:
[] To Sakura: CALM DOWN! I'll get Rin back, but I can't guarantee it if you pop in right now.
[] To Akiko: Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully but I need cooler heads to win out right now. Escalation is going to end in tears. We don't want that.
[] Also, is Minami with you?
[] To University: As I'm sure you're aware from your contact with Miss Inoue, we'd like to get this entire mess settled without further bloodshed. While I understand the point of taking Rin out of the fight during the combat itself, it's also clear that you don't want to actually kill her.
[] As such, can we get her back on her feet while we discuss things? This is likely to take a while, and I don't want her or her body harmed. [note very serious tone]
[] The rest of the Sendai group is staying away for now. We can have Rin present as their representative.
[] Standard Discussions and Negotiations.
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[] Cannongerbil
Cannongerbil said:
[] To Akiko and Sakura both: Whatever you're thinking of doing right now, stop. Calm down. We'll get Rin back. This can still be resolved peacefully but I need cooler heads to win out right now. Escalation is going to end in tears. We don't want that.
[] To the University group: Okay. I'm sure there's a very, very good reason that you decided to take Rin's gem. Can you explain how all this happened?
-[] If they seem reluctant:
--[] Ms. Tsubaki, I've been made aware of at least one injustice. The extortion imposed upon you and your group will not be tolerated. That will end before we're done here.
--[] I also come here with an offer. My power allows me to cleanse soul gems and empty grief seeds. I'm willing to offer this service to you and your group. Free of charge. But we need to bring this conflict to an end.
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Cannongerbil said:
If what you said is true, they would have simply taken Rin hostage instead of stealing her soul gem.
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It's likely that they took Rin down they way because it's a trivially easy, safe way to take someone hostage if you can go invisible.
Bringing Rin back is only a "Perfectly viable alternative" if they trust our word that Rin is not going to attack them or try and make a break for it. And frankly, you are still asking them to take a risk that they would not take without us convincing them, do you not understand why this might be problematic?
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Any attempt to attack them or make a break for it would end hilariously about half a second after it started. Rin's a noob, outnumbered seven to one, and isn't in control of her soul gem. This is a really, really dumb objection.
 
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