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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Torgamous said:
If the only form of recall election is murder, then either steps will be taken to prevent a recall, undermining the anarcho, or other less disruptive forms will be introduced, undermining the monarchism.
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I didn't say anarcho-monarchism would be stable. Indeed, if I go so far so as to say that any political system has a half-life in terms of how quickly it accumulates issues that will eventually turn it into another political system entirely, anarcho-monarchism is probably on the more radioactive end of the political spectrum.
 
I know this has nothing to do with anything at this point, but I just found out that it is perfectly legal to buy and own a 50. BMG Bolt-action rifle in all but 3 states and Washington DC, and I find this hilarious.

Also [X] Redshirt Army
 
I'd like to still offer clear seed distribution so here's my take. With some lines added from Redshirt of course.


[X] Fill Oriko in on the situation, ask for her thoughts.

[x] The proposal as it stands. Confirm with Chiyoda.
[x] The standing offer to be brought to the council. You expect it to be contested given what you've learned. You should still offer it anyway.
-[x] Start with your original offer along with a presentation of your cleansing abilities. Offer soul gem cleansing to everyone present at the council. Show the council how clear seeds work in comparison to a normal cleanse with a grief seed.
-[x] Reiterate your intentions of giving EVERY group in the Tokyo council a seed provided they agree to your 'few and simple ground rules' for how the seeds should be used. The usual spiel.
-[x] No group will be denied a seed as long as they agree to your stipulations.
[x] Inform the council that a handful of compromise arrangements (already discussed) have been brought up.

[x] We listen to the debate and ask/answer any questions that present itself.
[x] Use a recess to talk with groups that react negatively to your offer and see if you can get them to reconsider.

[X] Ask Toshimichi if there are any other particularly notable Tokyo groups we should know about for the meeting.
-[X] Fill Chiyoda in on your specific planned proposal, to sort out details and spot potential issues.
 
Okay, wow, I continue to learn a lot about myself. When I'm fully relaxed I end up way, way more willing to come in, read everything, and then push an actual opinion. Damn.

... Wow, I have opinions here and I'm willing to write the whole thing. Huh. Didn't expect that. Okay.

SO!

I think there are several things to consider.

First of all, given Chiyoda's acceptance of it, Yuki being okay with it, and our own interests as Constellation, we should push, hard, massively on installing a clear seed in a claim here. That means saying we'll commit to it and it means addressing the "will be a target" thing.



[] Assuming you can get it accepted, installing a clear seed in a claim here is simply going to happen.
-[] You will always respond to theft of a clear seed from anyone or anywhere with force, because the only reason to steal one is to have one and not be subject to the terms you're giving them away for free on.

We haven't contextualized our actual ability to produce force for anyone in Tokyo, yet. I see no reason not to, because Kyubey will already be telling anyone we wouldn't want to hear about it what happened to Iowa, so...

(If that didn't process for you: we can tell whoever we want that we smashed Iowa, because if them knowing that we smashed Iowa would be bad, Kyubey would tell them anyway).

--[] Yuki will ensure that it is adequately defended. You'll spread around what happened to Iowa Group as a way of discouraging people from trying in the first place.

There are a number of potential issues with giving clear seeds to groups in Tokyo at their request, which... Consider some case studies:

Michiko, a girl from Tokyo, decides to take Sabrina's offer of a clear seed. She uses the clear seed to irritate and generally screw with Yumika from the next territory over, who she holds an old grudge against. When Sabrina sends Sayaka to investigate claims of clear seed misuse, Michiko pleads innocence and claims she's Yumika's victim instead of the other way around. Dealing with this is a huge pain in the ass.

Mina, a girl from Tokyo, accepts Sabrina's offer of a clear seed. Her old neighbor, Kimi, who has despised her for years over an incident with a dress and a Tempura frier, decides to frame Mina in an attempt to get Sabrina to take away Mina's clear seed.

Lori, a girl from Tokyo, accepts a clear seed from Sabrina, fully intending to abide by Sabrina's rules. Tana, her hothead friend in another group, decides to provoke a fight with a long time enemy and then begs Lori to defend her. Lori steps in. What is Constellation's responsibility here?

Overall, I think Muramasa isn't wrong to want to maintain the clear seed offer. However, the usual agreement being offered to Tokyo groups opens Constellation to... The comparisons I'll make, neither of which are especially precise, are "entangling alliances with damn fool Balkan states" and "making promises around mean, manipulative, catty high schoolers."

My suggestion:

[] You will never refuse anyone willing to accept your terms a clear seed. However, you are keenly aware of the potential in an environment like Tokyo for your standard offer to become abusable, problematic, or generally an issue that you don't currently have the resources to trivialize. Therefore, the terms you'd offer someone in Tokyo might be extremely restrictive, and you would probably require a thorough interview process first to get a full understanding of exactly who you'd be extending trust to.

Then, I'd want to add some obviously successful bits from other votes:

[X] Fill Oriko in on the situation, ask for her thoughts.
[X] Immediate cleansing for everyone present who wants it to establish your bona-fides, some amount of grief-seed-equivalents given to each group through grief seed refreshing - five, perhaps.
[X] Assuming you can get it accepted, installing a clear seed in a claim here is simply going to happen.
-[X] You will always respond to theft of a clear seed from anyone or anywhere with force, because the only reason to steal one is to have one and not be subject to the terms you're giving them away for free on.
--[X] Yuki will ensure that it is adequately defended. You'll spread around what happened to Iowa Group as a way of discouraging people from trying in the first place.
[X] You will never refuse anyone willing to accept your terms -- in good faith -- a clear seed. However, you are keenly aware of the potential in an environment like Tokyo for your standard offer to become abusable, problematic, or generally an issue that you don't currently have the resources to trivialize. Therefore, the terms you'd offer someone in Tokyo might be extremely restrictive, and you would probably require a thorough interview process first to get a full understanding of exactly who you'd be extending trust to.
-[X] Misuse of a clear seed is a hostile act.

I have more input on the memory magic thing but I'm done for tonight and I need to know what we know about Mika's bomb status first
 
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[X] Kaizuki

Lotta good points here. Doesn't restrict access to cleansing, which is the thing we want people to have, but does restrict access to things that we don't want people to have, which is good. I'm sure Kyuubey is looking to send one of those dang things to someone by stealing it or arranging for someone to steal one, so that they can be a big dang mess for us to clean up, so eliminating a source of lost time would be great. Once again, since this is very convenient and DOESN'T just throw around lost-girl souls around just waiting to be misplaced or stolen (and therefore unable to be eventually dewitched).
 
Uh. @Kaizuki , you're kind of missing some important framing in your vote. This isn't the meeting vote yet, it's the vote right before the meeting.

Whatever proposal we come up with should get sanity-checked by both our friends and Chiyoda, and there's still some info I'd like to get from Chiyoda to help prepare for the meeting. Your vote doesn't do any of that.
 
Angrygenius said:
Luxury Gay Space Communism tag when
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Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism.
Muramasa said:
I wouldn't completely write off clear seed distribution yet. Not without observing the council session first.
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I am in complete agreement. We shouldn't immediately shift to the compromise position as our opening offer. That way lies getting talked down to a position that's even worse than your initial compromise.
BlueTwinkleToes said:
For the bit about directly asking, I would ask how we intend to handle the fact that Mami doesn't know about the Witchbomb, since that is a distinct possibility.
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I still think passing notes is probably the safest, sanest way of handling that.

So, here's what I'm thinking:

[X] Prompt Oriko for her thoughts. We do value her opinion too and want her to speak up, even if it's just to Sabrina.
-[X] If she's not up to date, fill her in on any parts she missed including the internal Constellation discussions if we weren't mirroring those to her already.

[X] The Proposal. Confirm with Constelation first then Chiyoda. One final chance to spot check for obvious issues or problems.
-[X] Open with a brief explaination of your abilities and Clear Seeds followed by an immediate offer of cleansing to all present.
--[X] Demonstrate making a Clear Seed so everyone can see the speed and ease they can be manufactured with.
-[X] Try the standard Clear Seed offer first. We probably won't get them to agree to it, but no sense leading with less than what we actually want.
--[X] Reminder that we don't have to give out Clear Seeds to groups, and that giving them to individuals is also an option if we can get enough Grief Seeds to make them.
---[X] Individuals going rogue is potentially less of a threat than whole groups going rogue because their members were dragged along because the group controlled their Clear Seed.
-[X] If our preferred offer doesn't fly, propose Yuki claiming a building and keeping a Clear Seed there, subject to Tokyo stress testing the building's defenses to convince themselves it's secure.
--[X] We think of this as a stop-gap and hope that after some time to get used to the new way of doing things, they'll become ready to accept the original offer, but we won't force it.
--[X] Ask our friends to remind us to consider offering this to the other groups we've met who didn't feel comfortable accepting Clear Seeds next time we're on a cleansing trip.
-[X] If they can't agree to that, propose regular cleansing trips with refreshing of used Grief Seeds.
--[X] Try to include some amount of Grief Seed equivalents to each group, maybe five seeds worth apiece as a starting number.

[X] Bring up just *asking* about the mind magic rumors to our friends. Only proceed if there's broad agreement to do so.
-[X] On the chance that it's related to infohazards, we can pass notes about it between those of us who are fully informed in Chiyoda and Constellation so no one has to break off from the group to have that conversation.
-[X] Try not to be unduly accusatory - if they've done it for the reasons you suspect, you can understand why they might have done it, but with something this concerning you felt the need to check.

Edit:
Tried to clean up the formatting a bit to make things more readable. The three proposals are color coded so Green is our preferred, Yellow is our compromise, and Red is our absolute lowest offer.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Uh. @Kaizuki , you're kind of missing some important framing in your vote. This isn't the meeting vote yet, it's the vote right before the meeting.

Whatever proposal we come up with should get sanity-checked by both our friends and Chiyoda, and there's still some info I'd like to get from Chiyoda to help prepare for the meeting. Your vote doesn't do any of that.
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I thought the sanity check already happened. These proposals have already been discussed. Nothing's been decried as unreasonable. There's just been some potential problems brought up. Also I still don't get why you're opening with a compromise arrangement.
 
Mm. I don't mind Nerevar's general point - we should be clear what our actual aim is so we don't end up compromising from the compromise - but I think it can be improved.

For one, we do want Chiyoda to agree to back up our proposal, and being too blunt about the first point endangers that. I am also extremely sketch on proposing handing out Clear Seeds to individual magical girls, when we've already been told that even handing them out to groups is likely infeasible.

For another, I don't see a Yuki Clear Seed Base as a separate point to giving out partially cleared seeds - we can and should do *both*, if the situation permits.


[X] Prompt Oriko for her thoughts. We do value her opinion too and want her to speak up, even if it's just to Sabrina.
-[X] If she's not up to date, fill her in on any parts she missed including the internal Constellation discussions if we weren't mirroring those to her already.

[X] The Proposal. Confirm with Constellation first then Chiyoda. One final chance to spot check for obvious issues or problems.

[X] Open with a brief explaination of your abilities and Clear Seeds followed by an immediate offer of cleansing to all present.
-[X] Demonstrate making a Clear Seed so everyone can see the speed and ease they can be manufactured with.
-[X] Explain the standard Clear Seed offer first, framing it as your ideal long term goal. We probably won't get them to agree to it immediately, but no sense leading with less than what we actually want.

[X] If our preferred offer doesn't fly, propose Yuki claiming a building and keeping a Clear Seed there, subject to Tokyo stress testing the building's defenses to convince themselves it's secure.
--[X] We think of this as a stop-gap and hope that after some time to get used to the new way of doing things, they'll become ready to accept the original offer, but we won't force it.
-[X] In the interim, in addition to the centralized Clear Seed, propose regular cleansing trips with refreshing of used Grief Seeds.
--[X] Try to include some amount of Grief Seed equivalents to each group, maybe five seeds worth apiece as a starting number.

[X] Bring up just *asking* about the mind magic rumors to our friends. Only proceed if there's broad agreement to do so.
-[X] On the chance that it's related to infohazards, we can pass notes about it between those of us who are fully informed in Chiyoda and Constellation so no one has to break off from the group to have that conversation.
-[X] Try not to be unduly accusatory - if they've done it for the reasons you suspect, you can understand why they might have done it, but with something this concerning you felt the need to check.
 
We gave Chiyoda the impression that we understand why they don't want clear seeds for everyone immediately. If we want to open with that proposal anyways to the whole council, it would behoove us to give Chiyoda a heads up first. We are visitors and guests in Tokyo after all. I am sure they won't like it, but they deserve to not be blindsided after it seemed like we just came to acceptable compromise.
 
Those changes look reasonable to me.

[X] Redshirt Army

Oripa said:
If we want to open with that proposal anyways to the whole council, it would behoove us to give Chiyoda a heads up first.
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That's what we're voting to do right now. This vote is about making a final spot check of our actual proposal and getting everyone on the same page about what we're going to do once we're in the actual meeting.
 
Oripa said:
We gave Chiyoda the impression that we understand why they don't want clear seeds for everyone immediately. If we want to open with that proposal anyways to the whole council, it would behoove us to give Chiyoda a heads up first. We are visitors and guests in Tokyo after all. I am sure they won't like it, but they deserve to not be blindsided after it seemed like we just came to acceptable compromise.
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We just floated potential compromises in the event the clear seeds proposal isn't workable at all. The original clear seed deal is and has been on the table. There's no blindsiding involved.


[x] Redshirt Army
 
Redshirt Army said:
Uh. @Kaizuki , you're kind of missing some important framing in your vote. This isn't the meeting vote yet, it's the vote right before the meeting.

Whatever proposal we come up with should get sanity-checked by both our friends and Chiyoda, and there's still some info I'd like to get from Chiyoda to help prepare for the meeting. Your vote doesn't do any of that.
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See, this is why @Redshirt Army is the best.

ANYWAY I just woke up I'll mod around that, I did feel that I was missing some important structural bits... But it was also 1am ^_^
 
So I noticed that there was an X'd in option to "Ask about Sumida". Are we doing that by default or probing that issue during the all hands meeting, rather than during our current private meeting?

Oripa said:
If we want to open with that proposal anyways to the whole council, it would behoove us to give Chiyoda a heads up first.
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It's already in Redshirt's vote as below, if you missed it.
Redshirt Army said:
The Proposal. Confirm with Constellation first then Chiyoda. One final chance to spot check for obvious issues or problems.
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